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[Vocalpoint]

All,

Having finally reached the end of my rope with my useless WDTV Live...I am now seriously considering going down the HTPC route and of course getting MC front and center. I am looking for recommendations on parts from a "today" perspective.

Couple of key requirements include:

1. Small form factor - probably a miniATX so I can really stash this thing out of the way.
2. Quietest case I can possibly get. Goes without saying for a theater setting.
3. No optical drive...this will be streaming everything from the network.
4. Must be capable of full HD resolution with HDMI 1.3+ compatibility (to be connected to a 2010 Pioneer VSX-23THX HT receiver)

I look forward to any recommendations.


Cheers!

VP

[mojave]

I really like the ASRock Mini PC Series. I bought a couple of the HTPC series for use at work because of the small form factor. You could purchase one like the Vision 3D. It supports HDMI 1.4a. I know you don't need an optical player, but it includes a neat slot loaded Blu-ray player for times when you want to watch a movie without ripping.

[Vocalpoint]

I really like the ASRock Mini PC Series. I bought a couple of the HTPC series for use at work because of the small form factor. You could purchase one like the Vision 3D. It supports HDMI 1.4a. I know you don't need an optical player, but it includes a neat slot loaded Blu-ray player for times when you want to watch a movie without ripping.

Thanks - this looks awesome...but I am not crazy about $749 I am sure I could build my own comparable version via parts for $400.00 - but I do like the look of it tho. And it provides me with a decent parts list guide for my own adventures

Cheers,

VP

[mojave]

I bought the ASRock Ion 3D for work. It is only $420 and can use the LAV CUVID video decoder. It also supports HDMI 1.4a. You can build a faster computer for the same money, but for an HTPC this thing is great. It is almost silent and can be turned on/off with the remote.

I have done some builds using the Silvestone MicroATX case for around $400 including the OS. However, you end up with a case almost 8x bigger than the ASRock computer.

[Vocalpoint]

I bought the ASRock Ion 3D for work. It is only $420 and can use the LAV CUVID video decoder. It also supports HDMI 1.4a. You can build a faster computer for the same money, but for an HTPC this thing is great. It is almost silent and can be turned on/off with the remote.

I have done some builds using the Silvestone MicroATX case for around $400 including the OS. However, you end up with a case almost 8x bigger than the ASRock computer.

Yes - the Ion 3D is 559 from Newegg here in Canada. I am confused tho - is there an OS supplied? Or do I have to install it myself? Can't see any mention of it.

And while the case is certainly "wife-approved"...and the silence would be golden - building my own leaves the door open for all sorts of upgrade possibilities and changes - whereas buying a pre-built leaves me - well - with the prebuilt - until the end of it's life.

VP

[glynor]

Looking at your list of requirements, you'd be remiss not to at least consider a Mac Mini.

Tiny, silent case.
Core i5 CPU which will dramatically outperform most similar systems (especially anything Atom/ION based).
HDMI 1.4 output, and MiniDP (with LightPeak) that can be converted to anything you'd want.
Completely Windows capable.
$599

The $799 version even comes with a Radeon HD 6630M GPU, which is much more capable than any of the Intel GPUs included with Sandy Bridge, if you care about games (but not really high-end ones).

I'm a big fan of gaming on a HTPC rig, because I have no interest in a standalone games-only console (which are loud, ugly, and make me switch the input on my display), so I basically rule out any of the small form factor boxes (it is awfully difficult to stuff a 10" video card into any MiniITX box).  So, that wouldn't work for me, but for your list of requirements, which didn't include gaming, a Mac Mini might be a very good option...

[Vocalpoint]

Looking at your list of requirements, you'd be remiss not to at least consider a Mac Mini.

Tiny, silent case.
Core i5 CPU which will dramatically outperform most similar systems (especially anything Atom/ION based).
HDMI output, and MiniDP (with LightPeak) that can be converted to anything you'd want.
Completely Windows capable.
$599

I'm a big fan of gaming on a HTPC rig, because I have no interest in a standalone games-only console (which are loud, ugly, and make me switch the input on my display), so I basically rule out any of the small form factor boxes (it is awfully difficult to stuff a 10" video card into any MiniITX box).  So, that wouldn't work for me, but for your list of requirements, which didn't include gaming, a Mac Mini might be a very good option...

Yeah - no gaming whatsoever. And with respect to the Mac Mini - then I would have to use Apple products...and that's just not going to happen over here .

I am now looking at the Dune HD line of media players as well. Still not certain that I want to have to "mind" yet another computer - plus the wife has a hard enough time getting the WDTV going on any given night - so having to watch her deal with another Windows based box for media stuff could be very painful.

Also - after parting it all out - I can still build an almost identical AsRock box (sans it's very small case) for around 500 - and that gets me the parts I want - not the ones they supply. On the case front - I would definitely only consider a computer case that lets me get a reasonably sized video card into the mix.

Cheers!

VP

[glynor]

And with respect to the Mac Mini - then I would have to use Apple products...and that's just not going to happen over here .

I understand.

It is really too bad though.  If you don't care about having an optical drive, there is really no better SFF pre-built system available for the price right now.  They make fantastic Windows machines.

But, building it yourself is also not a bad plan, and that does make the resulting system much more flexible (though bigger and uglier).  Lian-Li makes a bunch of nice SFF cases.  Be careful with video cards though... Most of the smaller ones are not compatible with anything but the low-end cards.

[Listener]

It is really too bad though.  If you don't care about having an optical drive, there is really no better SFF pre-built system available for the price right now.  They make fantastic Windows machines.

Useful post, thanks.  A Mac Mini does seem the best designed and implemented very compact computer around.

Have you used a Mac running Windows and MC?

Bill

[glynor]

Have you used a Mac running Windows and MC?

Often.  Until I smashed it, my laptop was a 13" Macbook (the oddball aluminum non-Pro Macbook they made for a short while before introducing the 13" Macbook Pro).  It booted Windows 7 by default, and it made for a fantastic Windows laptop.  And, when I needed to fire up Final Cut Pro or Logic Express to work on a project for work, I could always reboot to OSX.

It didn't get quite as good battery life in Windows as it got in OSX, but still quite good, and way better than the similar-vintage Lenovos they issue at work.  To solve an issue or two with games, I did also need to update from the Boot Camp graphics drivers provided by Apple to the "real" ones from Nvidia (this was easy enough using the ones provided at LaptopVideo2Go), but that was with older versions of Boot Camp, and might not apply anymore.

The only other thing about running Windows on a Mac that is at-all irritating is that to preserve the OSX partition, you can't easily use a traditional hard drive cloning utility like Acronis on the system drive.  But Winclone makes short work of that, and it is actually nice to have a "full-featured restore environment" (called Mac OSX) for Windows should you ever have a problem. 

[glynor]

I should add... I've never actually tried using Acronis on a Mac.  It might work just fine (in fact, I might try out just that as a test one of these days here).

[Daydream]

For the OP - if WD Live didn't work (I know the feeling, I returned the WD TV Live Hub after 3 days), do you still have any love left for closed boxes (a la Dune HD)?

Otherwise there are a zillion Ion(2) boxes out there up to $350.

Or on AMD side:

Zacate -> $100 (ASRock) to $150 (ASUS with UEFI Bios)
Mini ITX case -> $50
4GB RAM -> $25
64GB SSD -> $110 (or less, I just picked something at random)

Total: $285 to $335

[Vocalpoint]

For the OP - if WD Live didn't work (I know the feeling, I returned the WD TV Live Hub after 3 days), do you still have any love left for closed boxes (a la Dune HD)?

The Dune HD is actually my leading contender right now:)

I have a request for quote out to a Canadian dealer...I have studied it a lot in the last few weeks and it seems like exactly what I need. Well built, great components, professional grade connections...I am looking at the Smart D1 currently - which gives me the front display and the option to drop a hard disk in there if I want.

It's looks sweet....for about 300 bucks - we may have a winner here...

VP

[Listener]

Often.  Until I smashed it, my laptop was a 13" Macbook (the oddball aluminum non-Pro Macbook they made for a short while before introducing the 13" Macbook Pro).  It booted Windows 7 by default, and it made for a fantastic Windows laptop.  And, when I needed to fire up Final Cut Pro or Logic Express to work on a project for work, I could always reboot to OSX.

Thanks all the detail.  If I could buy a Thunderbird based 3 TB drive at a reasonable price (or even a 2 TB drive) right now, I think I'd take a flyer.

Bill

[MrC]

Ars mini review:

http://arstechnica.com/apple/reviews/2011/08/ars-reviews-the-2011-mac-mini.ars

[laerm]

The Dune HD is actually my leading contender right now:)

I have a request for quote out to a Canadian dealer...I have studied it a lot in the last few weeks and it seems like exactly what I need. Well built, great components, professional grade connections...I am looking at the Smart D1 currently - which gives me the front display and the option to drop a hard disk in there if I want.

I've just started shopping for a new HTPC to replace my much-beloved-but-geriatric Aopen box, and came across this thread... Those Dune devices look pretty sweet, but I'm confused about something: what's the OS there? It looks like a proprietary thing. If so, how do you plan on getting MC to run on it? Or would it just connect to MC as a DLNA device?

Thanks...
Micah

[Vocalpoint]

I've just started shopping for a new HTPC to replace my much-beloved-but-geriatric Aopen box, and came across this thread... Those Dune devices look pretty sweet, but I'm confused about something: what's the OS there? It looks like a proprietary thing. If so, how do you plan on getting MC to run on it? Or would it just connect to MC as a DLNA device?

Thanks...
Micah

I am back on this thread now - since the dealer I was working with could not get any product whatsoever. Seems the Dune factory or something to do with the components in it were right close the earthquake/tsunami zone back in March 2011 and product is now backordered for like years. So much for that idea - so I cancelled the order and will be moving onto something else.

Mac Mini - just how hard is it to get Windows 7 on there and what am I looking at AFTER I get it on there....does it do everything that a Win based HTPC like the ASRock would do?

ASrock - either Vision series or any of them that would server as a HTPC - is this just a normal Windows PC or does it boot to it's own front-end?

Laptop? Some folks must have thought about using a laptop as a storage/playback scenario...any recommendations?

Cheers,

VP

[glynor]

Mac Mini - just how hard is it to get Windows 7 on there and what am I looking at AFTER I get it on there....does it do everything that a Win based HTPC like the ASRock would do?

Extremely easy.

After you get OSX set up and logged in (which basically just means turn it on and tell it some stuff).  You just open the Applications -> Utilities folder on your hard drive, and then launch the Boot Camp application.  This will walk you through the steps.  First it gives you a very simple disk partition dialog where you repartition the disk to make room for Windows.  Then it downloads the "Boot Camp driver package" for Windows, and prompts you to save it onto a USB drive (or burn a CD).  Then, lastly, it asks you to insert the Windows disc.  You do, reboot, and then it installs Windows onto the partition you just set up.

From there, it'll boot into Windows.  You insert the USB drive you made earlier, and install the Boot Camp drivers.  This enables everything from Right-Clicking with your mouse (if you use the Apple-provided magic mouse), keyboard "volume control" and "track changing" support, and the Intel, video card, sound, etc drivers all in one go.

It also installs a Control Panel app that you can use to set the default boot OS (Windows or OSX), and configure the Keyboard and mouse support (so you can swap the F# keys for the "multimedia/hardware functions" by default), and all of that kind of stuff.

From there?  If you set it to boot Windows by default, it IS a Windows box.  And a nice one at that.

One tiny recommendation though... If you intend to use a Windows OS disc you burned yourself, you have to "do it right".  Macs use EFI BIOS and don't boot right to some Windows install discs that are burned in some common ways.  You can fix it with a little elbow grease if that's all you have though, just ask if you're in that situation.  I can point you to a guide.  BTW - This applies to many other Sandy Bridge Windows machines too now.  It is an EFI thing, not a Mac thing.

If you use an "official" Windows disc, you won't have any issue.

[Vocalpoint]

Extremely easy.

After you get OSX set up and logged in (which basically just means turn it on and tell it some stuff).  You just open the Applications -> Utilities folder on your hard drive, and then launch the Boot Camp application.  This will walk you through the steps.  First it gives you a very simple disk partition dialog where you repartition the disk to make room for Windows.  Then it downloads the "Boot Camp driver package" for Windows, and prompts you to save it onto a USB drive (or burn a CD).  Then, lastly, it asks you to insert the Windows disc.  You do, reboot, and then it installs Windows onto the partition you just set up.

From there, it'll boot into Windows.  You insert the USB drive you made earlier, and install the Boot Camp drivers.  This enables everything from Right-Clicking with your mouse (if you use the Apple-provided magic mouse), keyboard "volume control" and "track changing" support, and the Intel, video card, sound, etc drivers all in one go.

It also installs a Control Panel app that you can use to set the default boot OS (Windows or OSX), and configure the Keyboard and mouse support (so you can swap the F# keys for the "multimedia/hardware functions" by default), and all of that kind of stuff.

From there?  If you set it to boot Windows by default, it IS a Windows box.  And a nice one at that.

One tiny recommendation though... If you intend to use a Windows OS disc you burned yourself, you have to "do it right".  Macs use EFI BIOS and don't boot right to some Windows install discs that are burned in some common ways.  You can fix it with a little elbow grease if that's all you have though, just ask if you're in that situation.  I can point you to a guide.  BTW - This applies to many other Sandy Bridge Windows machines too now.  It is an EFI thing, not a Mac thing.

If you use an "official" Windows disc, you won't have any issue.

Glynor,

Thanks for all the info! Sounds fairly straight forward.

Now - since I am looking at this from a pure HTPC angle...what's the scoop on remotes etc. I cannot see myself ever dealing with any keyboard/mouse scenario in the media room. That will for sure annoy my wife as all she wants to do is hit a pre-programmed button on my Harmony One remote (which was an adventure in training by itself), select a flick and hit Play. So - if we have any exposure to a Windows desktop that is suddenly on my TV...that will make this whole adventure not worth any effort.

Ideally - something along the lines of:

1. Select "Watch movie" on my Harmony One
2. Which fires up the Mac Mini
3. Which switches powers on and switches input to HDMI 3 on my Pioneer Elite
4. Which powers up the Samsung LCD
5. And onscreen appears the Videos (theater view) in MC

Can it be done like this or am I dreaming?

Cheers,

VP

[glynor]

Two words:

Promixis Girder.

I use a Snapstream Firefly remote and that's it.  It handles everything from turning on the TV and the Denon, to switching inputs (when rarely necessary) to controlling all of my common applications with a single remote.  With a fancier remote like the Logitech, it would probably be even better (because you could use better labeling for functions and whatnot).

Girder is a bit fiddly, and does crash occasionally (which might be my somewhat slipshod GML settings).  You'd also probably need to keep the HTPC turned on for it to work (though it can probably sleep depending on the remote), but Girder plus a USB-UIRT gets the job done.

[nwboater]

I'm wondering why he would need Girder? Our Harmony One does the equivalent of steps 1 thru 4. And we do part of step 5: It starts up in theater View (That's an MC option). Just not sure what it might take to then automagically go to Videos.

If he does need additional remote control software there are 2 programs that might be easier to work with than Girder. The first is Intelliremote and the second is LM Remote. I believe Rick.ca uses and likes LM Remote, but I could be mistaken. Only issue I see with LM Remote is people on his forum are complaining about no response from the Owner sometimes for months. That would bother me. But hopefully he can do everything he wants with just the Harmony One.

One other thing I just thought of is re the Mac Mini. Would the remote software commands be the same for bringing it out of sleep as with a PC?

Rod

[glynor]

One other thing I just thought of is re the Mac Mini. Would the remote software commands be the same for bringing it out of sleep as with a PC?

If you set it to boot Windows by default, it IS a Windows box.  And a nice one at that.

The only difference between a Mac in Boot Camp and a "vanilla" Windows machine is in the BIOS (a Mac doesn't have one, they're EFI based).  Once you boot to Windows, it literally is a Windows 7 PC.  A computer is a computer is a computer.  It is an Intel Sandy Bridge PC with a fancy BIOS and another operating system on board.

Macs also don't (traditionally) have a physical eject button for their optical drives (just a key on the keyboard that you need drivers for), but the Mac Mini doesn't even have an optical drive, so that's not important here.  And, the keyboard has the Windows Key and the Control Key reversed, but you can always just use a Logitech keyboard or whatever if it bothers you.  I love the flat-style aluminum Apple keyboards.  I don't even have a Mac in my living room and I bought one of their wireless keyboards for the HTPC because I like it.  It is a GREAT HTPC keyboard.

He might not need Girder.  I haven't use a Harmony One remote personally, just read about them.  But, one of the things I've read is that the Harmony software is absolutely dismal.  While I wouldn't say Girder is perfect in every way, I also wouldn't classify it as "dismal".  It is powerful and useful, and relatively easy to use.  There is a bit of a learning curve, but once you "get it" it isn't too bad to get it to do all sorts of amazing things.

But, if you feel comfortable doing what you need with the Harmony itself, then more power to you.

Considering that I have a dog...
And a child...

I've never even considered a remote that costs more than $40 or so.

[Vocalpoint]

I haven't use a Harmony One remote personally, just read about them.  But, one of the things I've read is that the Harmony software is absolutely dismal.

FWIW: Harmony One works perfectly for the devices currently installed - including the WDTV Live....I have boxed up all the remotes and just use the Harmony now. The main reason I got it was for wife and child. It's a one click perfect solution that works flawlessly. The only time the software ever came into play was for adding "activities" but that was a long time ago and I haven't needed to use it for a long while....however when I did need it - seemed to work fine.

That being said - if a move to another media player/HTPC solution is in the cards - the Harmony One has to be part of that scenario. It works so well that there's no changing now.

BTW: Just took a look at Girder...yipes - don't want to have to write code to watch a movie. I do enough of that at the day job.

Cheers,

VP

[glynor]

BTW: Just took a look at Girder...yipes - don't want to have to write code to watch a movie. I do enough of that at the day job.

It really isn't that bad.  It looks bad, because it is quite powerful.  But you don't need to get into the LUA Scripting unless you are really trying to do some crazy stuff.  They need some better "beginner-level" tutorials.  All the stuff seems to focus on the high-end advanced scripting (probably because that's what existing users ask about).  But we here at Interact know nothing about that problem, right?  

But, if the Harmony works for you, that's great.  You probably don't need it for what you want to do.  I just don't know much about how they interact with a PC.

One tip... If you're setting up commands to do things in MC, you'll get much better latency (so better button-push responsiveness) if you send Windows Messages directly to the MC process, rather than calling mc17.exe /MCC for each one.  I don't know if the Harmony software can do that or not though.

[MrHaugen]

I did not have the time to read all of this, but I also highly recommend ASRock 3D Vision. Asrock have several versions. So, you don't HAVE to spent 700$ on it... I've been building HTPC's for years, but never again. It costs much more than it tastes imo.

[glynor]

I agree.  The ASRock Vision 3D systems are very nice.  They're just a tad expensive, but they would be the best other option, I'd say.

This little box is great, but it is $680 and that's a barebones one (no RAM or Hard Drive included), so you're going to end up spending $900 before you're done (especially with hard drive prices like they are now).  Is it better than a $799 Mac Mini?  No, not really, unless you really want the BluRay drive, otherwise they're quite comparable.  The same thing ends up happening with the lower-end no-gpu versions.  The barebones systems from ASRock are mid-$500s, and the Mac Mini is $599, so... Meh.  Down to personal preference and cost at that point.

I think the Mac Mini is nicer, and I like that it is SO much smaller because it doesn't have an optical drive.  To each their own though.  What I would NOT get would be one of those Atom/ION systems though.  They aren't cheap enough to make those tradeoffs worthwhile.

[DarkPenguin]

I did not have the time to read all of this, but I also highly recommend ASRock 3D Vision. Asrock have several versions. So, you don't HAVE to spent 700$ on it... I've been building HTPC's for years, but never again. It costs much more than it tastes imo.

The only ones I've seen at newegg start at $680 and work their way up.

[MrHaugen]

The only ones I've seen at newegg start at $680 and work their way up.

Here's a search, with prices down to 325. Hardware varies of course.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=40000003&IsNodeId=1&Description=asrock&name=Barebone%20Systems&Order=BESTMATCH