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[fitbrit]

Somehow I've become a liaison between us here and AVSforums with respect to MC16. There are a lot of legitimate reservations being expressed over there, and also a decent number of people who are happy with RO and/or other MC16 features. I've seen a few people who like the playback configuration, but not the other stuff... hence my previous suggestion for releasing a barebones RedOctober MediaPlayer that others could launch from their front end of choice.

Here are a couple of requests and I will add more. These will be mostly video biased as the AVS guys in the HTPC forums are all used to WMC with MediaBrowser or XBMC etc.

GUI (TheaterView)
MC has the flexibility to allow us to display our media libraries the way we want. Unfortunately that means those who are too lazy or too busy to learn how to tag their media and set up views will find MC16 "too difficult", or will assume it just can't do the things that their old media software did automatically.
It has been suggested that a middle ground is found. One where perhaps a number of views for video libraries are available - the way some users are used to seeing their media in other software. This would allow them to 'buy-in', and then customise little by little until they are doing more with their libraries than they could before. I believe other software gives users little choice, and could therefore have their default views available in MC fairly easily.
This brings me onto another issue...

Tags
Those coming from other software have already had their media auto-tagged by 'scrapers'. For a first time installer, I think it would be a good idea to ask what their previus software was and to create, auto-populate and display the fields that the other software would have already set up for them. This is similar to how a new web browser offers to import bookmarks from previous browsers. A series of checkboxes could be available to allow new users to decide what they want to see in Standard, and especially Theater View. I don't know what the format of tags in XBMC or WMC/MediaBrowser/MyMovies is, but if we could make it relatively painless to get this into sidecar files it would be great. Call the feature TagOctober... or CrimsonTag.

Subtitle positioning customisation
Something like this was asked for before with respect to where the OSD shows up. A user asked whether Blu-Ray subtitles (but applicable to all) could be moved on the screen. This would allow those with projectors and 2.35:1 'cinemascope' screens to move subtitles up to the point where they are visible on this type of screen, rather than projected onto the frame or below as the would on a 4:3 or 16:9 screen. I've done some m2ts testing, though, and the subtitles always seem to appear on the movie in my testing, including in 2.40:1 movies. Is this by design, or just coincidence? If the former, I guess this feature request is redundant.

[Matt]

the subtitles always seem to appear on the movie in my testing

With Blu-ray (PGS) and DVD (VOB), there is a correct subtitle position that is part of the subtitle image.  Media Center honors this.

Text subtitles are always bottom aligned, over the movie.

Putting subtitles outside the video area is challenging, because some renderers like EVR don't support rendering in the non-movie region.

[Matt]

Those coming from other software have already had their media auto-tagged by 'scrapers'.

Do the files have tags?  Or sidecars?  Or just huge filenames that contain some metadata?

We did revise the video views in Theater View with v16 to be more friendly to movie collectors.  But you're right that the quality of browsing depends on the quality of the metadata, and since there aren't accepted tag formats for video, this can be spotty.

It's possible a folder-based view should be a default.  I think browsing like the files are on disk is the most comfortable method for MPC users.

[sunfire7]

Putting subtitles outside the video area is challenging, because some renderers like EVR don't support rendering in the non-movie region.

I think it would be a great feature...

any news with the api key from themoviedb?

[jmone]

fitbrit you are doing a great job over there.

I agree on the Structure regarding video files.  Like most of these users, when I first started using MC It took me ages to get my head around using the meta data in the MC database to build the views from.  I was so fixated on using a directory structure to sort my media that it never even occurred to me that there was another (and better) way.  This is really the base level/default way other progs do it.  MC approach may be better but until you get the "concept" it is tough going.  I found I went though three levels of learning:
1) Trying to use MC to browse my presetup Directory Structure = I deleted most views and just used MC as a file browser = pretty ordinary experience
2) I found that I could use "Fill Properties from Filename" and started mirroring my Disc Structure in MC = better by still limited by the directory structure approach
3) I "finally" worked out to completely ignore and push aside the constraints of the directory structure and instead really 100% on meta data populated in the MC16 library.  For example, I now import my Movies then manually mass tag a bunch of stuff (like "Media Sub Type" and "Genre") and then let the "Lookup Movie info from Wikipedia" do the rest.
3a) While MC abstracts where and how the files are stored, I now use MC to reverses sort my stuff on the HDD from time to time using "Rename, Move, & Copy Files" where for example on music I map the meta data for Artist\Album back to a directory structure.

Anyway, there are two approach that could be taken:
1) Default Views that can be built from parsing the directory structure
2) When importing media ask "do you want to "Fill Properties from Filename"" and let the user select what they want mapped to where at this point.

[fitbrit]

Do the files have tags?  Or sidecars?  Or just huge filenames that contain some metadata?

We did revise the video views in Theater View with v16 to be more friendly to movie collectors.  But you're right that the quality of browsing depends on the quality of the metadata, and since there aren't accepted tag formats for video, this can be spotty.

It's possible a folder-based view should be a default.  I think browsing like the files are on disk is the most comfortable method for MPC users.

I don't know what the other media centres have for files. I tried to use XBMC once, but was too lost to even find my movies... and then they played back awfully.
One thing I really think is off-putting is to see TheaterView sort videos by album as a default... and then default that to date of import if the field isn't overwritten manually. Perhaps videos should follow directory structure as a default?

[JustinChase]

I think if one could determine how/where others store their video tags, in general (if they have any), and see if there aren't maybe 2,3 or 4 popular options that cover 50 to 70% of cases, and generate a couple of "custom" presentations for these new users.  (XMBC, WMC, MPC, ??)

I don't know what XMBC offers, since I've used MC so long, but if they have any kind of 'normal' way of storing their metadata, MC could know where to likely find it, then how to map it into MC to give an easier transition.  Maybe a couple of views that somewhat mimic XMBC to ease their transition to MC Theater View.  Combined with their tags, it should be a usable start.

Maybe not.

[fitbrit]

With Blu-ray (PGS) and DVD (VOB), there is a correct subtitle position that is part of the subtitle image.  Media Center honors this.

Text subtitles are always bottom aligned, over the movie.

Putting subtitles outside the video area is challenging, because some renderers like EVR don't support rendering in the non-movie region.

Then I think the request is redundant, unless some Blu-Rays don't do this.

Actually, after reading around a bit, I see that many Blu-Rays have subs below the image, including lots of Bollywood movies. There seems to be a need for software to be able to nudge subs. OSD would be a good way of doing this, just like the image can be moved onscreen now.

[fitbrit]

I like all these ideas, jmone and JustinChase. I've linked this thread in the AVS one, so we may even get some new people chiming in. Maybe tomorrow, I'll court their ideas in that thread itself.

[raldo]

Prioritize existing, legal metadata applications over import from "competing" applications. The latter is going to cost a lot of grief and dev hours.

JRiver should determine if they really want plugins/thirdPartyScripts to handle the rest of the web metadata. The current plugin architecture does not allow pluginDevs to facilitate a smooth user experience.

Make metadata import as automatic as possible with automatic filename parsing, autotagging, etc.

Increasing the number of default video views is a good idea as long as the metadata is there.

I personally find the current GUI base more than good enough. But filling the screen with backdrops, metadata etc. always spice things up.

Find a better name than "tagOctober" and go for it!

[steelman1991]

Raldo - that hit the spot.

I'm one of those who has commented on the AVS thread, regarding a more automated process of metadata collection. Love playback, hate the tag process. What most of the users are coming from is an app (MediaBrowser, XBMC etc.) where you point the software to a folder, identify its contents (Movies, TV Shows etc) and the app automatically scrapes and 'tags' the data in a format recognised by the app and displayed accordingly.

Personally the display GUI is more than adequate for my needs, but the collection of the data needed to display in even a basic fashion, IMHO needs attention. Not necessarily for me - I've managed to tag using a combination of MyMovies and AutoMeta, but others used to the auto scrape method are likely to turn tail and run at the first hint of the word 'manual'

Keep up the good work.

[CountryBumkin]

Raldo - that hit the spot.

 What most of the users are coming from is an app (MediaBrowser, XBMC etc.) where you point the software to a folder, identify its contents (Movies, TV Shows etc) and the app automatically scrapes and 'tags' the data in a format recognised by the app and displayed accordingly.

Personally the display GUI is more than adequate for my needs, but the collection of the data needed to display in even a basic fashion, IMHO needs attention. Not necessarily for me - I've managed to tag using a combination of MyMovies and AutoMeta, but others used to the auto scrape method are likely to turn tail and run at the first hint of the word 'manual'

Keep up the good work.

I agree 100%. That would make the transition easier.

[flac.rules]

Somehow I've become a liaison between us here and AVSforums with respect to MC16. There are a lot of legitimate reservations being expressed over there, and also a decent number of people who are happy with RO and/or other MC16 features. I've seen a few people who like the playback configuration, but not the other stuff... hence my previous suggestion for releasing a barebones RedOctober MediaPlayer that others could launch from their front end of choice.

Here are a couple of requests and I will add more. These will be mostly video biased as the AVS guys in the HTPC forums are all used to WMC with MediaBrowser or XBMC etc.

GUI (TheaterView)
MC has the flexibility to allow us to display our media libraries the way we want. Unfortunately that means those who are too lazy or too busy to learn how to tag their media and set up views will find MC16 "too difficult", or will assume it just can't do the things that their old media software did automatically.
It has been suggested that a middle ground is found. One where perhaps a number of views for video libraries are available - the way some users are used to seeing their media in other software. This would allow them to 'buy-in', and then customise little by little until they are doing more with their libraries than they could before. I believe other software gives users little choice, and could therefore have their default views available in MC fairly easily.
This brings me onto another issue...

Tags
Those coming from other software have already had their media auto-tagged by 'scrapers'. For a first time installer, I think it would be a good idea to ask what their previus software was and to create, auto-populate and display the fields that the other software would have already set up for them. This is similar to how a new web browser offers to import bookmarks from previous browsers. A series of checkboxes could be available to allow new users to decide what they want to see in Standard, and especially Theater View. I don't know what the format of tags in XBMC or WMC/MediaBrowser/MyMovies is, but if we could make it relatively painless to get this into sidecar files it would be great. Call the feature TagOctober... or CrimsonTag.

Personally I think the problem with theatre view isn't only the views, and the inof you can display there. That works pretty ok in MC, but the the skins themself lacks "bling", and is pretty difficult(?) to customize. The visual style of many competitors is a good deal better than Theatre View. I think that is something that puts quite a few people off. Remeber, when you try a front-end, the visual style is very important for judging if something "works for you". I know how I would like Theatre View too look, but AFAIK it's very difficult/impossible for me to achieve.

As other have said, I think the first thing should be a good forward plan and "official policy" when it comes to hrvesting metadata for MC, what images to use, if its plugin-based and so on.

[Matt]

any news with the api key from themoviedb?

Support should be coming soon.

Thanks to themoviedb.org for a nice and simple SDK.

[kramertc]

With Blu-ray (PGS) and DVD (VOB), there is a correct subtitle position that is part of the subtitle image.  Media Center honors this.

Text subtitles are always bottom aligned, over the movie.
Putting subtitles outside the video area is challenging, because some renderers like EVR don't support rendering in the non-movie region.

I was the one inquiring about subtitle shifting functionality over at the AVS thread.  Honoring correct subtitle position?  ?  ?
There are many movies in wide scope (2.35:1 or greater) where the subtitles display in the black bars below the image area.  There is a growing market in front projection where users prefer a 2.35:1 screen to create a more inmersive experience.

The Oppo players and international Philips players offer this functionality.  This is isn't asking for piracy enablement or anything like that.  If I'm misunderstanding your post please correct me. 

[Matt]

I was the one inquiring about subtitle shifting functionality over at the AVS thread.  Honoring correct subtitle position?  ?  ?

The PGS / VOB data packet contains an X and Y position, relative to the source video.  So there's a technically correct position, as specified by the movie itself.

There are many movies in wide scope (2.35:1 or greater) where the subtitles display in the black bars below the image area.

From what I've seen, in these cases the black bars are actually part of the movie.  The new Harry Potter Blu-ray is this way, for example.  The subtitles are rendered in the black area of the movie.

There is a growing market in front projection where users prefer a 2.35:1 screen to create a more inmersive experience.

Even with a 2.35:1 Blu-ray like Harry Potter, you'll have to zoom in to not have black bars on the 2.35:1 projection, since the bars are part of the movie.  Luckily zoom and shift are easy with Media Center.

When zoomed in, the subtitles should probably be pushed into to the visible area, because currently they'll run off the screen.  Would that change provide what you're looking for?  If not, could you describe in more detail what you want?

Thanks.

[kramertc]

The PGS / VOB data packet contains an X and Y position, relative to the source video.  So there's a technically correct position, as specified by the movie itself.


From what I've seen, in these cases the black bars are actually part of the movie.  The new Harry Potter Blu-ray is this way, for example.  The subtitles are rendered in the black area of the movie.



Even with a 2.35:1 Blu-ray like Harry Potter, you'll have to zoom in to not have black bars on the 2.35:1 projection, since the bars are part of the movie.  Luckily zoom and shift are easy with Media Center.

When zoomed in, the subtitles should probably be pushed into to the visible area, because currently they'll run off the screen.  Would that change provide what you're looking for?  If not, could you describe in more detail what you want?

Thanks.

Thanks for the prompt response.
Please keep in mind that I've never used JRiver's Media Center.  Maybe your description of zoom combined with shift may address the need...here's how I have to do it projecting a 2.35:1 Bluray: (Harry Potter is a great example since the subtitles are in the lower black bar and I really need them on this genre)
 
- Zoom the image so the viewing area fits correctly in the 2.35:1 fixed screen. Then turn the subtitles on from my Oppo Bluray player.
- At this point the subtitles are displayed somewhere on the screen's black border or below on the wall.
- This player lets me shift the subtitles.  So I move them up until they are inside the viewing area.  Happy viewing.

In my case the zoom is done via the projector's lens.  However, even if I used the zoom function in the player the subtitles would still need to be shifted therefore the Y position of the subtitles is unaltered unless specifically using the subtitle shifting functionality.  In a purist sense it would be preferable to decouple zooming from subtitle shifting.  Let the lens of the projector zoom since zooming from software can potentially introduce scaling artifacts (well, the lens zooming also can create issues but let's leave this out).

As simple as this subtitle shifting functionality sounds only Oppo players and Philips non-us players have this functionality.  Phillips sells 21:9 TVs in Europe  and Asia hence their support of it.  Vizio announced a 21:9 display at CES in January and there are rumors that at CEDIA next month 21:9 projectors will be announced.  21:9 or 2.35:1 if you will is definitely a small niche but it's growing and its a very hard core and vocal group.

Hope this makes sense.

[vairulez]

There is another way to do 2.35:1, the best one IMO, which is to expand the image vertically to fill your 1.78:1 panel projector and then use an anamorphic lens to restore the proper geometry.
In this case the subtitles need to be moved inside the image or they will never reach the projector (by the way can MC create the "fill the screen" aspect ratio that only expands the image vertically ?)

[fitbrit]

Matt, I think these would be some exciting new features to add, and really set MC apart:

1) The repositioning of subtitles as you zoom, keeping them in the same position with respect to the screen rather than the image. This would work for those who zoom into a 2.35:1 screen, and who don't mind MC doing the scaling. MC's scaling looks fantastic by the way. It would be an added bonus if the seek bar and transport controls moved down in a similar way at the same time subtitles moved up.

2) A manual repositioning system for subtitles for those who zoom from the projector lens. On my 61" 16:9 screen, 135% scaling of a 2.35:1 video so that the height fills the screen looked perfect (from 8 ft away). I can check how it looks on my 120" screen from 10 ft away tomorrow. I personally think that if option (1) above were offered, (2) wouldn't be necessary... but there are "purists".

3) A stretch height feature, that scales the image only vertically to full number of height pixels. This would screw up the aspect ratio for most users, but would be ideal for those with anamorphic lenses; they wouldn't have to buy an expensive image scaler. Options (1) or (2) would have to be implemented with this, though, to allow subtitles to be displayed.

The PGS / VOB data packet contains an X and Y position, relative to the source video.  So there's a technically correct position, as specified by the movie itself.


From what I've seen, in these cases the black bars are actually part of the movie.  The new Harry Potter Blu-ray is this way, for example.  The subtitles are rendered in the black area of the movie.



Even with a 2.35:1 Blu-ray like Harry Potter, you'll have to zoom in to not have black bars on the 2.35:1 projection, since the bars are part of the movie.  Luckily zoom and shift are easy with Media Center.

When zoomed in, the subtitles should probably be pushed into to the visible area, because currently they'll run off the screen.  Would that change provide what you're looking for?  If not, could you describe in more detail what you want?

Thanks.

[vairulez]

and the icing on the cake would be to distort the subtitles accordingly to appear perfect after a passage through the anamorphic lens

[Matt]

Thanks for the details on subtitles everyone.

We'll try to add an option to shift the position of subtitles sometime in the next two weeks.  Like I said above, shifting down may be a problem with EVR (but possible with madVR) but shifting up is no problem.

As for the anamorphic lens, maybe someone could send us a 1080p projectors with an anamorphic lens for testing.  We'll return it in a few years once we're sure everything is right

[kramertc]

Thanks for the details on subtitles everyone.

We'll try to add an option to shift the position of subtitles sometime in the next two weeks.  Like I said above, shifting down may be a problem with EVR (but possible with madVR) but shifting up is no problem.

As for the anamorphic lens, maybe someone could send us a 1080p projectors with an anamorphic lens for testing.  We'll return it in a few years once we're sure everything is right

Matt,

Thank you.  That would be great.  Shifting up would take care of 99.99% (my SWAG estimate) of the situations.  While I have your attention..make this functionality non-sticky.  Meaning that the subtitles need to repositioned every time the user is playing back a movie.  Not all 2.35:1 movies have subtitles coded to display in the black bar.  Also, this way you don't upset the apple cart for the vast majority of people that don't need nor care for subtitle shifting.

Really appreciate the responsiveness and attention to your community.  Very nice.

[BartMan01]

Two of the repeated complaints from the AVS thread are:

1. When compared with free tools like XBMC, the default theater views don't seem to be as good.  Whoever is responsible for the Theater View UI should spend a few weeks with XMBC and then come back and really do a solid compare to how Theater View works.

2. Manual file tagging is so 1990's.  There are sites like http://thetvdb.com/ that have API's to scrape the TV data and IMDB for movies:
http://wiki.xbmc.org/?title=How_To_use_Scrapers
http://wiki.xbmc.org/?title=TV_Shows

Users of the free solutions that just dump their stuff in directories, tell the software what directories their stuff is in, and just use it are not going to move from a free solution that just works to a paid solution where they have to manually tag stuff.

The existing Wikipedia solution is hit or miss and can't handle naming solutions that include the year at the end - so for me it is almost 100% manual (choose option, change name to match what your search tool is expecting, hope it finds a match).

There is no way to easily set what artwork shows in the background in Theater View (or I've just missed it).  Usually the 'auto artwork' is spot on, but from time to time it shows artwork that has nothing to do with the content.

[rick.ca]

Two of the repeated complaints from the AVS thread are...

1. It would indeed be nice if someone with a good understanding of both programs would do an unbiased comparison. Meanwhile, I wish XBMC users would appreciate the impression it creates for an experienced Theatre View user can be just as negative. I found it so clumsy, slow, unintuitive and inflexible, I could not even bear to give it a "fair" test. That doesn't mean the issue of MC attracting those who perceive their current software a "just working" (and free) and MC not isn't a real one. I think first impressions would be dramatically different if meta data were automatically provided so the default views in Theatre View would have something to show right from the beginning...

2. ...so yes—long overdue. But if this is going to be done right, it's going to take a substantial development effort. I hope what we'll eventually see is an integrated system that

• auto-tags files on import;
• includes a system for managing a variety of meta data sources and types (e.g., scrapers and API's) for any media type;
• supports a rule-based mapping of data to fields so multiple sources can be combined (e.g., fill field from TMDb unless it has already been filled from IMDb);
• for series will download and make available all of the information provided by the meta data service, and then match available media to those records;
• includes the ability to automatically add and populate records for files that do not (yet) exist—for movie wish lists and upcoming episodes.

Until something like this is implemented, I would hope at least some prospective users would appreciate many of these things can be accomplished now. Few would want to go to the same lengths, but I have no doubt what I already have in Theatre View is far superior to anything possible in XBMC.

[JimH]

Theater View discussion split here

[Matt]

Coming in 16.0.154 (and later):
NEW: Subtitle shift and size can be set per file, and settings will be saved between plays and runs.

[kramertc]

Coming in 16.0.154 (and later):
NEW: Subtitle shift and size can be set per file, and settings will be saved between plays and runs.

Thank you!

[fitbrit]

Amazing, Matt. Thanks a lot!

[MrHaugen]

2. ...so yes—long overdue. But if this is going to be done right, it's going to take a substantial development effort. I hope what we'll eventually see is an integrated system that

• auto-tags files on import;
• includes a system for managing a variety of meta data sources and types (e.g., scrapers and API's) for any media type;
• supports a rule-based mapping of data to fields so multiple sources can be combined (e.g., fill field from TMDb unless it has already been filled from IMDb);
• for series will download and make available all of the information provided by the meta data service, and then match available media to those records;
• includes the ability to automatically add and populate records for files that do not (yet) exist—for movie wish lists and upcoming episodes.

I'd just like to give a +1 to this list. It can't be stressed enough, how important this field is. None of us likes to do things like this manually when we know it's possible to do automatically.
Even though I now use SABnzbd and Sickbeard who do a lot of this automatically now, there is still PLENTY of people who relies on tagging on import (media type) and automatic scraping. I use Couch Potato for movies as well, but I'll have to stick with plugins for the metadata yet, as the MC sidecar support has not yet been added.

[lhwidget]

Hi all,
Here's my experience:
After a year on XBMC, I switched to MC, and I never looked back.  XBMC was having audio troubles and MC cured everything.  MC's audio (using ASIO for All on XP) and DVD playback were superior, the improvements were easy to see and hear.

However...

XBMC really did generate a nice theater view with almost no effort on my part, that was nice. 
But; While XBMC just does whatever it does, when it made mistakes, they were very hard/impossible to fix.

XBMC's weather feature displays 3 locations, nice for me, and I used it.

I like how XBMC leaves the time & temp displayed on almost all screens except playing movies.

XBMC handled my wave files with folder.jpgs for cover art, but I never figured out how to group by genres, or display albums in release date order.

After 6 months on MC, I'm still learning that it can do great things.

I'm not a heavy tagger/organizer, I'm happy with a single cover art shot with title/artist/release date info for both movies and albums.  Being able to group my movies by date imported is very nice for locating new movies (wouldn't know where to start to do this in XBMC).

I guess I'm a mid-range user, about 150 DVDs & 300 albums, with audio and video quality and a good 10' interface operated with an MCE remote meaning the most to me.

I remember when I started using MC.  I spent a couple of days learning how to use it, then I spent several more days cleaning up my directory structure to facilitate tagging my wave files using extended directory parsing.

Now, even without much tagging experience, I have theater view behaving like I want and I've never been happier.

A good wiki failure example;  Where the heck is the stack icons switch???  (so far, both wiki and forum searches haven't revealed an answer)

I know it totally sucks, but up-to-date user guides and wiki info would keep many prospects and new users confident and happy about actually spending money for something they use heavily and enjoy immensely