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Author Topic: Apple Again  (Read 4482 times)

jmone

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Apple Again
« on: November 09, 2011, 03:12:40 am »

...not wanting to be a tosser...but the key drag race in comparing iTunes to MC would be:

- Speed to Sync to iStuff from iTunes =  ;D
- Speed to Sync to iStuff from MC =  :-\

= for iStuffers you still need iTunes regardless of how fast MC is with other elements of Library mgt.
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rpalmer68

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Apple Again
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2011, 06:39:23 am »

...not wanting to be a tosser...but the key drag race in comparing iTunes to MC would be:

- Speed to Sync to iStuff from iTunes =  ;D
- Speed to Sync to iStuff from MC =  :-\

= for iStuffers you still need iTunes regardless of how fast MC is with other elements of Library mgt.

Tosser!  :D
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JimH

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Apple Again
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2011, 06:45:08 am »

...not wanting to be a tosser...but the key drag race in comparing iTunes to MC would be:

- Speed to Sync to iStuff from iTunes =  ;D
- Speed to Sync to iStuff from MC =  :-\

= for iStuffers you still need iTunes regardless of how fast MC is with other elements of Library mgt.
We would be happy to support Apple if they seemed at all interested.
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park

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Re: Apple Again
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2011, 10:36:48 am »

I agree. Screw them.

It'd be worth making an iOS version of Gizmo just because of the audience it would give you, but only within the parameters they set. To try to circumvent their protections is bad use of time and to give them unnecessary attention. If you are limited in what you are able to provide apple users, it is not your fault, and it is their loss.

Personally I pine more for tagging ability in Android than for precious dev time to be spent on apple products.
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jmone

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Re: Apple Again
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2011, 01:34:03 pm »

We would be happy to support Apple if they seemed at all interested.

I am no apple fan, and think they are one of the worst examples of a company using their predatory powers to stifle competition and innovation.  I also don't think you will get Apple to place nice with JR on MC....but you have the unenviable situation of still being stuck with at least half your user community with these devices, so do you:
1) Pour heaps of resources into "recracking" their DB and take the risk they change it (again)
2) Enhance the Export to iTunes / iPhone option
3) Someother 3rd party sync tool that MC can IF with for the actual sync
4) Ignore the lot

Worse still I have no credible suggestion except the current options are not great and that comparing MC to iTunes will just bring out the obvious comparison.  It is a bit like saying to a farmer that your Ferrari is quicker than his Ute (Pick up truck)...
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park

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Re: Apple Again
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2011, 01:09:18 am »

I say that making a working Gizmo app that can stream music, if it doesnt take too many resources, is good enough support for apple users. They have chosen the walled garden of itunes.
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rpalmer68

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Re: Apple Again
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2011, 03:20:50 pm »


3) Someother 3rd party sync tool that MC can IF with for the actual sync


If it was me, I'd be going down the 3rd paty plugin option.

There are a number of delevopers out there who have developed itunes alternatives, maybe one of them would be willing to develop (and mayeb even sell) a MCiSync plugin if asked.

I'm not sure if MC is structured to allow this, but I'd have thought it would be a good way to head. Allow syncing via a plugin so in the future any mobile device could be supported without JRiver having to actually develop the sync tool sitself.

Just my 2c worth.

Richard
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glynor

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Re: Apple Again
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2011, 03:45:24 pm »

I've said this before, but I'll say it again...

Apple has a published, official, API for doing exactly this.... You just have to interface with iTunes rather than the device directly.

Everything else could be automated, from launching iTunes, to adding/removing files from its library, setting metadata on those new files (setting Media Type to Audiobook and whatnot), to syncing an attached device, to closing iTunes when you're done.

They just don't support direct syncing via an external 3rd party app.

Alternatively, they could build a JRiver MC app for iOS and sync to that directly over WiFi.  That used to be forbidden (duplicating functionality of a built-in app), but they've relaxed that rule and there are now lots of other alternate media player apps in the Store that do exactly this.
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rpalmer68

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Re: Apple Again
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2011, 03:49:54 pm »

I've said this before, but I'll say it again...

Apple has a published, official, API for doing exactly this.... You just have to interface with iTunes rather than the device directly.

Everything else could be automated, from launching iTunes, to adding/removing files from its library, setting metadata on those new files (setting Media Type to Audiobook and whatnot), to syncing an attached device, to closing iTunes when you're done.

They just don't support direct syncing via an external 3rd party app.


Oop, I hadn't read that... well that seems the even more logical way for doing it. 

And given my wife wants to get an iPad, I'd love to see it implemented before I get too much itunes grief!

R
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glynor

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Re: Apple Again
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2011, 04:39:31 pm »

I should add...

I used to say that Option 1 described above (using iTunes as a "handheld" in MC) would be the best possible plan.  It is still a good option, and would be something they could implement completely from within MC itself.  And it has minimal risk.  It is possible, of course, that Apple could change the API of iTunes with some future version and kill off some part of the functionality.  But the API has been static for a LONG time, and there are plenty of other iTunes "script" applications that do essentially this exact thing.  iTLU is what I use, and the same exact version of iTLU has worked on iTunes without modification since iTunes 7, I think (and we're on 10.x now, many years later).  I really doubt that Apple is going to notice little-old JRiver and decide to quash them for no good reason, especially if JRiver was playing by the rules and using a published API.

But... Lately I've been thinking that Option 2 discussed above would be a much better choice, if it is financially viable for Jim.

Why?

Well... Think about how awesome you could make that App.

Imagine:

[Mode=Dreaming]
The fictional JRiver iOS App (we'll call it iOS Gizmo for short) could plug-in to your copy of MC running at home, via the same Media Network system that Android Gizmo uses, and use THAT for syncing.  In MC's Options, we have a new panel that allows you to set conversion settings for Gizmo Sync (they'd have good defaults for iPhones and popular Android devices).  When you launch Gizmo, it asks you to enter the Media Network Access Key for the library you'd like to connect it to (with alternate options for directly entering an IP address and port).

So, you'd be able to browse and stream your entire MC library from home, or remotely if you have your router set up properly, and access ALL of your content on the device.

BUT (and here's where it gets cool), we'd also have a new default Smartlist called "Gizmo Sync" or something like that.  Then, whenever the Gizmo app is running on the device and able to contact the server, it will also sync any files in the Gizmo Sync Smartlist over to the local storage on the device.  The Gizmo app would have a special Local Storage mode or section where you could browse all of the files that you have locally, for when you want to just use it to listen to some tunes or watch a video when you don't have an active Internet connection (or for if your MC Server at home is not available).

This Smartlist could be set up to be dynamically updating, so you could set up rules (using the existing power of Smartlists) to add a randomly rotating selection of music, images, and videos to the local storage on your device.

Even better?  If you CAN connect to your MC Server, in addition to browsing and streaming files directly from the server, you could have a "Download" button.  Say you're away on a trip.  MC is at home recording your TV Shows for you.  You really want to watch that latest episode of Boardwalk Empire that MC recorded for you while you were away, but you want to watch it on the plane with no Internet access?

Open Gizmo before you get on the plane while you have Internet access, browse and find the episode, tap Download.  MC uses Red October to convert the file, on the fly, to an appropriate H.264 640x360 MP4 file (or whatever), and downloads it to your device.  You get on the plane, switch Gizmo to "offline mode", and get your Boardwalk Empire on.

It could do other awesome stuff too... In addition to the Remote Server/Local Storage modes, you could have a Remote Control mode (I'm envisioning the same exact UI, with a three-way mode switch of some kind).  Then, the App would act like the current WebRemote to actually control playback on your copy of MC.

The pieces are all there to build something amazing.  My podcast downloader app does a lot of this kind of stuff.  It can download podcast episodes (even big, video ones) over both WiFi and 3G.  And, of course, AirVideo does all of the video streaming over 3G, with on-the-fly transcoding, quite well.  I have other Media Player apps that can do local-storage sync much like what I described, but none have a back-end as rich or robust as what JRiver has ALREADY built with MC.
[/Mode]

I don't know if this is something that JRiver could pull off... But if so, I think it could open up a whole new market for them.  I hear people complain about the limited features of iTunes on the Apple podcasts I listen to all the time, and specifically say that they wish there was something more like THIS.  I'd love to be able to write to them and say "Check out JRiver Media Center and their iOS/Android Gizmo App".
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glynor

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Re: Apple Again
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2011, 04:47:36 pm »

PS.  Even better, they could sell iOS Gizmo on the App Store and make some money to recoup the cost of developing it.  I'd certainly pay $10 for that.
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rpalmer68

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Re: Apple Again
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2011, 04:53:09 pm »

PS.  Even better, they could sell iOS Gizmo on the App Store and make some money to recoup the cost of developing it.  I'd certainly pay $10 for that.

I'd certainly pay for it.

as long as it can sync my files to it and not just play them remotly.
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glynor

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Re: Apple Again
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2011, 04:58:39 pm »

as long as it can sync my files to it and not just play them remotly.

Agreed.  Local storage is key.  My network connections up here in Maine are flaky enough that I need local storage for a viable Media Player app on a handheld device.

Not to mention all the people with iPads and iPod Touches that don't have always-on network connections.
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ThoBar

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Re: Apple Again
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2011, 08:19:37 pm »

I would LOVE an iOS Gizmo! (with local file sync)

Esp. if it drags my custom fields and views across... ooooh the goodness! (and throw in some good audiobook support - syncing, bookmarking etc  ;D)


iOS Gizmo (Gizmios ? ) would mean I could almost be happy to keep using iPhads and iPoons for the time being. Until you create gizmo for WP7 or win 8 :)
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jmone

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Re: Apple Again
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2011, 08:28:53 pm »

You don't want to charge for it as.....Apple then gets a slice!
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rpalmer68

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Re: Apple Again
« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2011, 02:18:42 pm »

Well we now have an iPad in the house  (blame the wife!)... an of course one of the first questoins is why can't I sync my music to it like I can with my ipod?

The "Apple are not nice people to play with" answer helped for a little while but I'l still have to get the music on there somehow.

I noticed that the Calibre software I use to manage ebooks, supports syncing to an Ipad and it does it the way Glynor mentioned and that is using the iTunes API.

Is this somethg that JRiver might me considering supporting as other than a iGizmo I can't see any bettter way of doing it?

All my audio is in APE format, so MC will obviously have to convert/cache the files and then point iTunes to the cached mp3s.

Thanks
Richard
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raym

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Re: Apple Again
« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2011, 03:41:50 pm »

Hey Richard, the transfer to "virtual" handheld method works perfectly for my iPhone and my wife's iPod too. Essentially, you setup your handheld to point to your iTunes "watch" folder.

I assume you know what I'm talking about? Yell out if you don't. It's not a bad workaround for now...
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datdude

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Re: Apple Again
« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2011, 08:37:39 pm »

You don't want to charge for it as.....Apple then gets a slice!

Build Gizmo with HTML 5 and its basically an app without going through the app store.  See Yahoo Mail mobile as an example. https://m.mg.mail.yahoo.com/hg/
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fitbrit

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Re: Apple Again
« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2011, 10:32:33 pm »

You don't want to charge for it as.....Apple then gets a slice!

Is there something wrong with tossing a bone to the people that developed the very device we're coveting an app for? Why not support the future development of the platform? Yeah, I know they will still survive without MC users' money! :)
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rpalmer68

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Re: Apple Again
« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2011, 01:24:32 am »

Build Gizmo with HTML 5 and its basically an app without going through the app store.  See Yahoo Mail mobile as an example. https://m.mg.mail.yahoo.com/hg/

Build Gizmo with html, css and javascript and it can run an almost any mobile platform!

https://build.phonegap.com/

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MrHaugen

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Re: Apple Again
« Reply #20 on: November 24, 2011, 02:37:33 am »

Yes, I would assume that there could be less trouble in the long run, to develop an Gizmo application for Pads and Phones. You do remove the problem with the devices' software being constantly changed to throw off developers at least. But as other have said, it would probably not be sufficient before you can sync content to the device locally. I would love this for android as well. I hate all the mobile players that can not cope with things like Album Artist. It's a complete mess.
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glynor

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Re: Apple Again
« Reply #21 on: November 24, 2011, 09:29:11 am »

I just thought I'd say quickly...

HTML/javascript/css/etc apps can be useful, but they are nothing like native apps in speed, fluidity, and accessibility.  I don't think Gizmo would be a good fit.

Plus, like discussed above... Local content is key.  If it requires an always-on active network connection, this app would be nowhere near as useful for me.  And, keep in mind, there are 26 million+ iPads and a whole bunch of iPod Touches out there, many (most?) of which do not have always-on network connectivity.

My iPad is a 3G model, but I don't ever turn that on.  I just got it to have the flexibility and GPS chip.
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gvanbrunt

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Re: Apple Again
« Reply #22 on: November 28, 2011, 08:19:51 pm »

Here's a thought; Apple restricts access to the music DB on their devices, but I believe you can put whatever files you want on the device. What if MC synced files to the accessible portion of the file system, kept it's own DB and used it's own app for playback? That does get around Apples walled garden when it comes to adding music.

The potential issue is getting the app on the AppStore though. Since Apple plays all kinds of games with what can be published, they may very well not publish a program that "competes" with iTunes.
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glynor

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Re: Apple Again
« Reply #23 on: November 29, 2011, 08:34:16 am »

Here's a thought; Apple restricts access to the music DB on their devices, but I believe you can put whatever files you want on the device. What if MC synced files to the accessible portion of the file system, kept it's own DB and used it's own app for playback? That does get around Apples walled garden when it comes to adding music.

The potential issue is getting the app on the AppStore though. Since Apple plays all kinds of games with what can be published, they may very well not publish a program that "competes" with iTunes.

As I mentioned above, at one time Apple was blocking things like this.  Now, however, they are allowing all sorts of competing media players on the App Store, so long as they aren't just "straight clones" of the iTunes functionality.

So, if it allowed you to do things like play FLAC and APE files, it would almost certainly be cool.

Here's one small example of many: http://blog.naver.com/michealplay
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JustinChase

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Re: Apple Again
« Reply #24 on: November 29, 2011, 11:27:38 am »

Personally I pine more for tagging ability in Android than for precious dev time to be spent on apple products.

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gvanbrunt

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Re: Apple Again
« Reply #25 on: November 29, 2011, 10:20:44 pm »

Quote
As I mentioned above, at one time Apple was blocking things like this.  Now, however, they are allowing all sorts of competing media players on the App Store, so long as they aren't just "straight clones" of the iTunes functionality.

That is good to know. I left the Apple platform specifically because of all the interference with developers. I have a couple of iPods, went through 2 iPhones and still have a PowerMac. I had plans to develop for the platform, but Apple constantly blocked attempts at publishing applications for all kinds of things. It's nice to see they are relaxing things, but still kind of scary as a developer what they did in the past. Hopefully they continue the trend...
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rjm

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Re: Apple Again
« Reply #26 on: November 29, 2011, 10:35:11 pm »

Did not read all of the above but just wanted to comment that I got my first iPad and spent the last few days setting it up. Key applications for me are reading ePub books and reading PDF books.

Calibre syncs ePubs very nicely for viewing on iPad with iBooks and offers 2 methods: direct to iPad (without iTunes) using some complicated device driver, and indirect via iTunes. I only tried the latter because I want to backup apps at the same time but it works amazingly well. iBooks is a little too plain for my tastes but works extremely well and I will be staying with it.

GoodReader is a superb app for reading PDF books and offers an easy wireless method for copying files to its directory using Explorer. No need for iTunes at all in this case. I set up a "folder" device in MC for creating the batch of pdfs that I want to copy to the iPad.

Love the iPad.
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Matt

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Re: Apple Again
« Reply #27 on: November 29, 2011, 10:58:12 pm »

I got my first iPad

This is the best positive indicator on the economy I've heard in a while.

It wasn't that long ago that you were saying we should stock up on food & gas, and save as much money as possible!
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rjm

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Re: Apple Again
« Reply #28 on: November 29, 2011, 11:21:13 pm »

This is the best positive indicator on the economy I've heard in a while.

It wasn't that long ago that you were saying we should stock up on food & gas, and save as much money as possible!

It was a birthday gift from a overly generous brother. :)

My high end 5 year old Dell laptop just died and cannot be repaired a reasonable cost. I'm buying a used $250 laptop to replace it. This will be the new norm as we descend into the coming permanent global depression.
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