Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[thesnodger]

Hi,

I am having the same issue as another member (posted in the MC17 forum) with my Meitner MA-1.

I can confirm that both Kernal Streaming and WASAPI event-style works with DoP, but the Native ASIO driver does not work.

I have DSD checked in Options>Video>Bitstreaming but I get the same error when trying to play back a DSD file (I am using DSF exclusively). Hi-Res FLAC, and regular 16-bit/44.1Khz material also works absolutely fine.

Like Yeang, my preference is to use the native ASIO driver as it has no dependencies on Windows services (meaning I can shut them off).

I must also add that I can get DSD native over ASIO using Foobar2000 with the SACD plugin and DSD Proxy (I think that's what it is called).

So is this just something that you guys need to do a bit more work on to fix it? Will we see a fix in version 17 or will an upgrade to 18 be necessary?

BTW, I am using an extremely tweaked version of Windows 7 x64 with only 5 services running and J River 17 (Build 184) as the shell which I why I am not keen to go back to WASAPI event style as it needs 3 additional services running to work whereas ASIO needs none. Thanks!

[Ychng]

Hi Jim, Matt and gang,

Wanted to chime in here and add that this is something I would also really like to see in the interest of reducing latency. My Meitner MA-1 also does not work with MC 17 in ASIO mode either.

I am wondering if this has something to do with the USB driver, although Snodger's comment that he got it working with foobar is interesting (I've never tried it, and I'm not sure if the proxy or other stuff running is getting around the need for pure ASIO).

Snodger, do you know how foobar gets it done? I was pretty sure it was more of a driver issue, though if they could get it working with JRMC18 that would be awesome.

Yeang

[Ychng]

p.s. i know there's something called ASIO4All, which is sort of a fake ASIO which runs over WASAPI, without needing true ASIO driver support.

Again, the issue here is DSD streaming over ASIO, not just PCM over ASIO, just to clarify.

[thesnodger]

Hey Yeang,

I don't know how foobar works internally, but I do know that you have to have the SACD plugin and the ASIO proxy. When you select your driver in foobar you select the ASIO proxy driver and NOT the Meitner driver (TUSBAUdio or something similar). I have a feeling that it could just be DoP being proxied by ASIO.

For now I am using KS for DSD and switching back to ASIO for other formats (primarily WAV and FLAC).

One other question for you Yeang - I've noticed that some 24-bit 192Khz files have drop outs (in J River, haven't tried Foobar). Have you experienced this? It could be a coincidence but it appears to be on music which has a lot of bass. I first noticed it playing a vinyl rip of VCMG and then again on another rip of the new Hot Chip album. If I resample the same file to 96Khz they play absolutely fine. The drop outs happen using any direct playback method (WASAPI, KS and ASIO) and occur at the same point in the song every time.

I should also point out that these files always played 100% correctly using my North Star USB Dac32 using J River on the same PC.

I can send you a couple of the flacs to test it if you want? If you experience it too I would hazard a guess it's a driver issue then we can get onto Meitner about it. I guess I should also test FooBar!

Jim, Matt and gang... have you had any similar experiences?

Thanks

Snodger.

[ted_b]

Snodger and Yeang,
Are you guys on the beta MC18 team (i.e are you reporting these DSD ASIO with Meitner MA-1 problem in MC18)?  Otherwise not sure why this thread is here.

I am going to ask to be put on the MC18 beta team to test all my DSD stuff (Meitner, Mytek, etc).

[thesnodger]

Well I'm not on the Beta myself. I guess I started it here because 17 development has ceased and there are certainly going to be quite a few of us (Meitner and Mytek owners) who would like to see a solution in MC18.

You are an MA-1 owner also? I've already emailed Meitner support on the 23rd about the ASIO issue (no reply as of yet), but I'd be interested to see if you have the same 24/192 playback issue as me. I will definitely be raising this with Meitner - I just wanted to see if it is just me having the issue before I do though, it's possible it's my PC setup. I only identified the issue yesterday, so I'll test playback via my laptop tonight to see if I get the same result.

[BigMac]

As a owner of DAC2X and previously owned MA-1, I think it is not MC issue.  It is with XMOS firmware and driver.

You have to understand that DoP is also one way to play DSD natively.  Why do you want to use ASIO with DSD? ?

[thesnodger]

Ok, I've done some initial testing using only J River 17 (build 184) for the 24-bit/192khz drop out issue.

I even rebuilt my main media PC just to make sure it wasnt a build issue! I've tested this now on my main PC (both before and after rebuilding) and on my laptop.

The results are surprising.

When I play the FLAC file bit perfect (i.e. all DSP/Output options OFF) I experience dropouts, always at the exact same point in the track. However, after I rebuilt my PC I restored the library and the settings had 'effects' checked (something I at first overlooked). When I play back with the 'surround field' effect on, the dropouts disappear! As soon as I go back to bit-perfect, dropouts happen again. This is the same for ASIO, KS, and WASAPI.

Can any of the engineers put forward a hypothesis as to why I get dropouts on bit perfect but plays fine when it's not?

As I mentioned earlier, if I resample the file to 24/96 it plays absolultely fine. I'll try tonight in other media players.

As for your question BigMac - why do I (make that 'we' as I am not alone) want to use ASIO with DSD? Because it's supposed to work and I'd like the option of being able to compare them all!

I'll post results about the dropouts in other players later.

Has anybody else had any expereince with Meitner support? I can't say I'm particaulrly impressed so far...

BTW, I'm aware I'm discussing two seperate issues now. Should we split this into 2 seperate threads? Nobody else has seen the dropout issue on MA-1 DAC?

Thanks!

[ted_b]

My MA-1 has no dropouts, period.  It has performed flawlessly.  And Greg (and Shahin) at Meitner have been great!  Email or call Greg there; he will help you out. 

[Ychng]

Hi Snodger,

Have not done a ton of testing with 24/192 as the bulk of my files are either DSD or 24/96. but there is something i just thought of.

The MA-1 (as well as the DAC2X) is not tolerant of input deviating too far from the ideal sample rate. When I tried to feed the Toslink output of the Audioengine D2 (which outputs at 24bit 95.3 kHz (not 96) the MA-1 had repetitive dropouts every 30 seconds to 1 minute.

Which makes me think that the files you are having problems with may have a slightly off sample rate at the dropout areas. Chris Connaker of CA has replicated my findings with the D2 - Shahin and Greg at Meitner basically said it was the fault of the Audioengine being off at 95.3 kHz and the interaction with the MDAT resampling system.

Try resampling to 24/384 and back down to 24/192. maybe that will solve the problem by realigning the areas that may be "off"?

Yeang

[Ychng]

also the fact that having effects in MC on gets rid of the problem supports this. That's likely bc MC is resampling the file for the effects DSP before sending it out.

So try sampling it up to 24/384 (theoretically no loss) and down to 192 again, and playing it bitperfect.

Yeang

[Ychng]

and by resample i mean in izotrope or some other external audio program that lets you do that, not in jrmc.

[thesnodger]

Hi Yeang,

Yeah I did think about doing that, or ripping the album again (the sound card's drivers have been updated a couple of times since then)! What you say makes perfect sense, I'll give it a go tonight.

Thanks

Snodger

[BigMac]

The neweat XMOS driver version is V1.56 from Thesycon.  Currently, Meitner use V1.29 driver.

As far as I know that EMM Labs will try to release new firmware package on this September and October.  Just pay attention.  

[Ychng]

Sounds great BigMac, hopefully the new driver will make DSD on ASIO simpler. And also improve sound quality!

[Ychng]

Snodger,

any results on the experiment after resampling the file? Curious to see what you find.

Yeang

[thesnodger]

Hey,

Yeah I had no software to resample to 352 and back down again. 192>192 did nothing, the same dropouts in the same places.

However sampling to a lower bitrate always fixes the problem. So does doing something like applying gain reduction, becuase I would assume it has to competely re-write the file.

I did notice last night for the first time a couple of drop outs playing a native DSD file!

I'm assuming there is something up with the drivers?

I've just fitted a SOtM PCIe USB card, and that hasnt made the slightest bit of difference to this issue.

Let's hope Meither come up with a fix.

[Ychng]

Hi Snodger,

I'd be interested to hear if resampling up then back to 192 will work. Obviously 192-192 probably just copies the same data over.

I have not experienced any dropouts so far with DSD (knock on wood). However, I find that the computer configuration is critical in terms of eliminating dropouts. I used to have dropouts on my Mytek playing DSD when I used my notebook which was not optimized for playback. When I moved to my custom PC build all those disappeared.

You might want to try the thesycon latency checker to see what latency your computer has at idle. Just google thesycon latency and download.

Here is a great guide to optimize latency on your playback computer:
http://www.cicsmemoryplayer.com/index.php?n=CMP.Guide

There are several sections further on that deal with this issue. On my dedicated playback computer I have MC 17 and a low resource antivirus (NOD32) installed. That's it. Minimal install of Win 7 64 bit.

Yeang

[thesnodger]

Hi Yeang,

My Windows 7 x64 PC is tweaked to the bollocks (pardon my French). I literally have 6 services running, Media Center 17 runs as the shell (no Windows Explorer) and nothing else. At all...

I also set Media Center to run as 'High' priority using 'Prio'. All the other possible optimistions that you see in that giude (and others) have already been done.

However, I haven't tested the latency tool - good idea. I'll double check to make sure I don't have a driver or other hardware problem.

PS. I confirmed I was getting the dropout using a default 'vanilla' Win 7 build before I tweaked the hell out of it.

[Matt]

I also set Media Center to run as 'High' priority using 'Prio'.

I would not recommend this.  It could easily lead to playback problems, since it causes threads we schedule as low priority to get elevated enough that they can begin to compete with time-critical playback threads.

[thesnodger]

I would not recommend this.  It could easily lead to playback problems, since it causes threads we schedule as low priority to get elevated enough that they can begin to compete with time-critical playback threads.

Fair enough. I can set it back to Normal. However, as mentioned before, I get the dropouts on an Vanilla build with nothing else "tweaked".

Thanks

[Matt]

Fair enough. I can set it back to Normal. However, as mentioned before, I get the dropouts on an Vanilla build with nothing else "tweaked".

I'm not really commenting with regards to the original problem, just making a general suggestion. 

I'm not sure on the original problem.  What is your JRMark (Help > Benchmark)?  What type of DSD are you playing (DFF, ISO, multi-channel ISO w/ DST compression, etc.)?

[kuanj]

 Hi Snodger

Thanks

[Ychng]

Question to Snodger:

I'm wondering if the dropouts from DSD are due to a different issue than dropouts from the 192 khz file. Did you get DSD dropouts with your vanilla build?

regarding the 192 khz file dropouts, if they are due to the meitner intolerance to bad timing, should happen regardless of the PC setup.
I'm referring to the DSD dropouts when I question your PC build. Do the dSD dropouts happen in the same place in the same file every time? if not, then it is probably a different mechanism than the dropouts from that 192 khz file. Latency/buffer induced dropouts should be more random.

do you ever get 192 Khz pcm dropouts or DSD dropouts from officially released (Hdtracks, channel classics, Blue Coast) files?

Yeang

[thesnodger]

Hi Snodger

QUOTE:
BTW, I am using an extremely tweaked version of Windows 7 x64 with only 5 services running and J River 17 (Build 184) as the shell which I why I am not keen to go back to WASAPI event style as it needs 3 additional services running to work whereas ASIO needs none. Thanks!
UNQUOTE:

Appreciate share the names of the 5 services that are running.

Thanks

The services still running are:

• DCOM Server Process Launcher
• Plug & Play
• Power
• Remote Procedure Call
• RPC Endpoint Mapper
• User Profile Service

OK... So it's 6. And you can only do that provided you are happy using the machine completely standalone and only as a Media Player (a lot of other apps won't work). If you have different hardware like a touchscreen you will also need to enable these services. But they are the absolute minimum you need for Windows to run properly. You also won't get WASAPI to work with only these services.

I can compile a guide if there is enough interest.

[thesnodger]

I'm not really commenting with regards to the original problem, just making a general suggestion.  

I'm not sure on the original problem.  What is your JRMark (Help > Benchmark)?  What type of DSD are you playing (DFF, ISO, multi-channel ISO w/ DST compression, etc.)?

I'm playing DSF files that I ripped from ISO files. How will I know if they have DST compression (would they have a .dst extension)?

JRMark was 3761 and the latency was negligible (under 50 avg).

[Matt]

I'm playing DSF files that I ripped from ISO files. How will I know if they have DST compression (would they have a .dst extension)?

JRMark was 3761 and the latency was negligible (under 50 avg).

With a computer that fast, I really don't think there's any way the problem is performance related.

So I'd be inclined to agree with Big Mac that there's some driver / hardware issue.

[thesnodger]

With a computer that fast, I really don't think there's any way the problem is performance related.

So I'd be inclined to agree with Big Mac that there's some driver / hardware issue.

Agreed. I'm gonna go with driver issue for now. I'll wait and see if Theyscon 1.59 driver will address it.

[Ychng]

Snodger, for my own information, are the DSD dropouts reproducible at the same place in a track? are they from specific tracks only?

Yeang

[thesnodger]

I've only noticed DSD dropouts once or twice and thus far haven't tested it enough to say for sure. I'd say given the infrequency of them they are random.

[kuanj]

Hi SNodger,

The services still running are:

•DCOM Server Process Launcher
•Plug & Play
•Power
•Remote Procedure Call
•RPC Endpoint Mapper
•User Profile Service
disbaled services

Thanks
d

[lasker98]

This may be completely off track but are you outputting 32 bit and the Meitner only accepts 24 bit? I was having very random dropouts using ASIO Thesycon driver on my usb to spdif converter. The converter accepted 32 bit but my dac only accepted up to 24 bit.
J River in ASIO would automatically adjust for the 32 bit of the converter, which was conflicting with the 24 bit limit of my dac. Once I switched to kernel streaming, I was able to set J River to 24 bit output and no more drop outs.
Like I said, may be completely off track but it took me a long time to figure out what was going on.

Good luck.

Bill

[thesnodger]

Hi SNodger,

The services still running are:

•DCOM Server Process Launcher
•Plug & Play
•Power
•Remote Procedure Call
•RPC Endpoint Mapper
•User Profile Service
 Once disable all aservices except the above, unable to open the services windows.
Where can I reinstate the disbaled services

Thanks
d

Not sure why you can't get to your services Window. What's your hardware config?

If you press CTRL+SHIFT+ESC you should get task manager window popup. Then click File>New Task(Run). Type in 'services.msc' and press ENTER. You should have your services window back.

[kuanj]

Thank you very much thesnodger.

[kuanj]

hi snodger,

Quote 'You also won't get WASAPI to work with only these services' Unquote.

which service did you disable that WASAPI won't work.

thanks

[thesnodger]

WASAPI need the Windows Audio Service, which in turn needs both the Windows Audio Endpoint Builder and the Multimedia Class Scheduler Service. Therefore you need all 3 to have WASAPI work.