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[Matt]

Microsoft is releasing the Surface RT devices soon.  Here's a Gizmodo review and Engadget review.

I've been trying to understand what RT means as a developer.

RT supports desktop apps like Microsoft Office, but from what I can gather, only Microsoft will be allowed to write desktop apps.

So an app like Media Center, where Theater View and our audio / video engine could make a really neat experience, might be impossible.

We could rewrite the interface for Modern UI, but if we're rewriting, we have to compare that effort against a rewrite for iPad and Android.

Soon there will be Windows RT Pro devices that run apps like Media Center, Photoshop, or anything else you like.  But Microsoft is leading with the ARM version, and the high price of these devices may limit their market penetration.

So what should JRiver do with regards to Windows RT?

[glynor]

A few things...

1. Windows 8 and Windows RT are not the same thing, even though they look almost identical.
2. Windows RT is ONLY the Windows on Arm version.  There is no such thing as Windows RT Pro.  The product you were referring to is the Surface Pro, which will run Windows 8.
3. No Intel based device will ever run Windows RT.
4. Making things even more awesomely confusing, there is also a separate thing called WinRT.  This is the new Windows 8/RT Runtime API, and is the Windows 8 replacement for Win32 and derivatives.  Both Windows RT and Windows 8 have access to the WinRT API.
5. Windows RT will run most, but not all, "Modern UI" (Metro) Applications (those that are written against the WinRT API exclusively).  However, the ONLY WAY to obtain or install applications for Windows RT devices will be through the Microsoft Windows Store.  Basically, think Apple's iOS App Store, because it is the same deal.
6. Intel-based Windows 8 machines will run all Modern UI Applications, and will have access to the Microsoft Windows Store.
7. Windows RT will not, ever, run a third-party desktop application not written and provided by Microsoft (and they've said they don't intend to add any new ones).  This means, on an ARM-based Windows RT device, the ONLY stuff you'll ever have in the desktop environment is IE, Office, and desktop accessories like Notepad, Minesweeper, and Paint.
8. Previous versions of Windows (7, Vista, XP, etc) WILL NOT run the new WinRT based "Modern UI" apps at all.

So, what does this mean?

Well, in my opinion, it means you don't want a Windows RT device, unless all you do is surf the web (and you don't mind IE), use IMAP email, and use Office.  There are essentially no apps available for them at all right now.  This may change, but I'm not optimistic that it will be a very quick ramp as Microsoft seems to be suggesting.  Because....

As I explained in the Surface thread, writing an application that will run on Windows on Arm (Windows RT) will require essentially a complete ground-up rewrite.  You are NOT able to target the Win32 API you've written against your whole life*.  You can only write against the WinRT API, which is a limited sub-set.  Applications written for the Windows Store, and therefore available on Windows RT devices, will look and feel like Windows Phone apps or Tablet apps.  There will not be, ever, a "port" of an application like Photoshop or AutoCAD to the Modern UI (they may make something new for the Modern UI, and call it Photoshop, but it will almost certainly be comparable to their iPad apps, not the real desktop apps).

And, perhaps most importantly... If you are a developer with existing Windows applications and existing customers, you will need to separately continue development of your "classic" Windows applications if you want to support customers who haven't or don't upgrade to Windows 8.  There is no such thing as an application that can run on both Windows RT ARM tablets AND on Windows 7 PCs.  You cannot port existing applications to WinRT.  Microsoft has to approve them, just like Apple's App Store, and they require adherence to the Windows 8 Modern UI style (not to mention that the API doesn't provide for things like upper right hand close X buttons, or classic checkboxes, combo-boxes, and radio-buttons).

In my opinion, the main benefit over adopting WinRT and Modern UI versus moving to iOS development is that it doesn't require you to learn a new language, and you can re-use code that doesn't call any Windows API at all (back-end stuff and low-level modules).  Also, the WinRT API is similar to the Windows 7 Silverlight Runtime API, and nearly identical to the Windows Phone 7.5 API, so if you are experienced in those development platforms, you should have an easy time.  In fact, it is very easy to port Windows Phone 7 apps to Windows 8's Modern UI environment and get them to run on the WinRT API, since the WinRT API is a super-set of the previous Windows Phone 7 (Silverlight-based) APIs.

* - Except Jim, of course.  Kidding!

[glynor]

I should add...

In my opinion, what Microsoft is attempting to do here is nothing short of the transition Apple pulled off with the PowerPC>Intel switch.  However, they are doing it without:

1. The compatibility "lifeline" called Rosetta that Apple built into OSX for years.
2. Fully committing to the switch, as they are still selling and supporting Intel-based "real Windows 8" machines, which will be fully compatible with existing Windows 7 applications like MC.

This makes me wonder what would motivate Windows developers to adopt the new Modern UI at all?

They're still going to have to develop desktop applications, after all, unless you are going tablet-mobile-WinRT-only (which seems like a ballsy move for an unproven platform).  The Modern UI for all of it's shininess, doesn't really meet all the needs of a real powerful desktop application.  For example:  You can't open three separate windows at a time.  You can't even really open two windows at a time (you can do that limited form of multitasking, but that is special and limited to a "regular" app and a "phone-sized" applet on the side).  Heck, Microsoft didn't even use it for their own "power" application, Office!  Which makes sense because you wouldn't be able to open and display two Excel spreadsheets at the same time (without a massive amount of work from the Office team).

Of course, Microsoft is going to sell a bunch of copies of Windows 8 over the next year, and all of those machines will be compatible with the new system, but... They'll also be (mostly) compatible with the classic development system you already know.  And, as I mentioned, you have to keep developing on that for the forseeable future because of the existing massive installed base of Windows machines.  Think it's taking us a long time to leave XP behind?  This will be an even longer-tail.

It all comes down to how well the Windows RT ARM-based systems sell.  If they sell 100 million of them in two years like Apple?  Well, then, it is a fantastic market, because you get all of them and plus all of the newly-purchased Windows desktops and laptops as a bonus.

If the Windows RT devices don't sell that well?  I think we're looking at the Vista Sidebar Gadget market on steroids, and the vast majority of applications will continue to be written as regular desktop applications.  If that happens, Microsoft has a serious problem on their hands.

[Matt]

Thanks Glynor.  Very good write-up.

So what should JRiver do?

[MrC]

So what should JRiver do?

Wait.

[glynor]

So what should JRiver do?

I think you basically have three choices which range from Conservative to Crazy-pants, depending on how successful you think Microsoft is going to be with this.

Conservative: Ignore Windows RT and keep developing MC like you always have.
Moderate: Port Gizmo over to WinRT and the Modern UI (alternatively, buy out the existing third-party Windows Phone app and use that instead).
Crazy-pants:  Scrap MC and start re-writing for Metro.

Obviously, I don't think number 3 is a good idea.  If I was a betting man (I'm not), I'd bet somewhere between #1 and #2.  I don't know that I'd go crazy doing it, but if it looks relatively easy to port Gizmo over to Metro (or you can gobble up an existing Windows Phone app easily), then it would be good to get started.  Core MC?  I'd leave that alone and keep-on-keeping-on.

Crystal ball time?

Short term...

* I think it is going to be something of a disaster on the scale of Vista (or maybe a bit worse).

* I think Ballmer is in serious jeopardy.  I don't think the board is going to accept failure here with a simple pay cut like before.

Long term...

* I think their goal is to get to a point where the competition is Microsoft vs. Apple again (with Google on the sidelines playing the part of the cute Linux distro people).  They don't think they can beat Apple straight-on, yet.  Their goal is to go after Google's "failure" in the tablet space and use that to get a foothold.  If they can get there, then that is a game they understand, and one which they've won before.

* Windows RT and Windows 8 "Pro" (Intel-based) tablets have real potential to "beat" (or tie) Android devices in the tablet space.  Intel's Haswell looks quite good for devices like this, which will be fully Windows compatible, and will be trickling into the market mid-to-late next year.  However, I think this will take a few years, and it depends on Microsoft not screwing up or giving up and firing Ballmer.

* They probably plan to use their new #2/3-ish tablet space position to wear down Android's lead in the phone space.  I'm much more skeptical of this, but it could happen if Google doesn't get their act together, or if they continue to anger their partners.

* I don't think it will work.  This is, of course, absurdly speculative.  However, I think that because this particular product (Windows RT) will give them a short-term black eye, that will hamstring them in the market for years to come, and allow Google time to get their act together on tablets.

It is certainly make-or-break time.  I just wish they hadn't taken quite this strategy.  The short term pain will all be caused by customer confusion over Windows RT, and customer frustration over the grossly overhauled Windows 8 UI.  If, instead, they'd release Windows RT as a completely separate product (with separate branding), and completely axed the Desktop mode, they'd have a much better shot.  Metro is actually pretty nice on a tablet!  But all you have to do is sit your mom down in front of a "traditional" Windows 8 PC and ask her to shut down the computer, or add a city to the Weather App, to see why I'm very, very worried in the near-term.

[Hendrik]

One thing to understand is that Windows RT is not a "Windows" in the classical sense, its more like a new Mobile OS/Touch OS. Its not meant to run full blown applications like MC, its meant to run simple touch-friendly apps like Gizmo instead.

If you want to join the RT cloud, i agree with glynor, you should just go with a Gizmo-like app, possible with some enhancements like local file playback (which Android-Gizmo would also love to get).

Now the "Surface Pro" tablets that run a x86 Windows 8, now that will be interesting. If the whole concept takes off next year, you may want to improve the MC touch experience.

[MrHaugen]

If the whole concept takes off next year, you may want to improve the MC touch experience.

I think this will be more important no matter what. Touch is going to be a focus on almost everything with a screen from now on. With the Windows 8 RT and Non RT version this is going to explode. We already see it after just 1-2 days since the release. There's lots of hardware producers adding touch screens where there previously were just touch pad, mouse and keyboard controls.

I believe that Gizmo should be adapted to other OS's. Especially Microsoft RT. And that Theater View needs some polish for the touch experience so it can be used just as effectively as a remote control today. This applies to the x86 version of the OS. Not RT.

[InflatableMouse]

I think this will be more important no matter what. Touch is going to be a focus on almost everything with a screen from now on. With the Windows 8 RT and Non RT version this is going to explode. We already see it after just 1-2 days since the release. There's lots of hardware producers adding touch screens where there previously were just touch pad, mouse and keyboard controls.

I believe that Gizmo should be adapted to other OS's. Especially Microsoft RT. And that Theater View needs some polish for the touch experience so it can be used just as effectively as a remote control today. This applies to the x86 version of the OS. Not RT.

Touch is important, agreed. What you don't hear much about yer is air gesture control (or whatever you want to call it). Kinect-like control of media devices such as a tv or a media center application. Few TV's have it already with built in cameras and as far as I'm concerned this should not be ignored either.

/offtopic

[glynor]

I can't believe none of the reviews dinged them on this as hard as they should have, but Microsoft finally "came clean" about the size of the OS in Windows RT.  Here's the scoop:  Buy a 32GB Surface RT, and it comes out of the box with 16GB free.

That's the answer.  It uses 16GB when you count formatting, OS size, recovery partitions, and the rest.  They played around with the numbers in the beforehand press releases by excluding required things like the recovery partition (5GB) from their "count".

But, you know... It was $100 cheaper than the 32GB iPad, and the same price as the 16GB iPad.  They got that news story for a few days, anyway.   

The truth?  The 32GB Surface RT has ~2GB more free space than the 16GB iPad, out of the box (and QuickOffice HD uses 62.8 MB on my iPad, for what it's worth, and does everything I'd ever need with office documents).

[wig]

So what should JRiver do with regards to Windows RT?

A Windows tablet device that doesn't let me run legacy software, and won't give me a full JRiver client similar to the desktop? That does nothing for me. Nothing.

I'd say skip RT and work on incorporating the touch interface for Surface Pro devices. Webgizmo would still be available for folks with RT devices, right?

[trionfare]

Guys any chance you'll write an app for RT? I purchased a device this weekend, and would love to be able to use J River on it. Thanks!

[soulcancer]

Even though I REALLY want to get a Surface, I am saving for a Nexus 10.

Right now I am using MVideoPlayer for all my videos on my tablet and phone.

I would be extremely excited to have MC on my Android, even if it is just Theater View!

So, IMO, I would say wait and go for Android

[MrC]

Samsung is Really Tepid:

   http://www.engadget.com/2013/01/10/samsung-cancels-windows-rt-plans-in-us/

[atom82]

I am a big fan of J River Media Center and have been using it since 'Media Center 16'. Now that Windows 8 is out/available in both its flavours of RT (purely for tablets)  and PRO (for desktop PC's, laptops and now tablets); I really want to see a 'Media Center 18' app (available in the Windows Store) which works purely as a touch interface and has most, if not all of the functionality of the desktop application.

I currently use a Desktop PC with 'Media Center 18' installed and am in the process of buying an HP ElitePad 900 (Windows 8 PRO Tablet). The desktop application is perfect for my desktop PC (using mouse and keyboard) but a touch based app would be much more suited to the tablet interface. MediaMonkey (a rival to J River Media Center) already has an app available. Please make a Media Center App as it would make my most used and favoured software even more useful and favoured!!!   

[glynor]

WebGizmo might actually work pretty well for now.  Have you tried that?

I don't think building a Metro app is a high-priority for them right now (to be blunt).  However, that could change if Windows 8 sees improved tablet adoption.  For now, I think their view is that this will be best served by a third-party client (much like JRemote on iOS).

For now, you might want to look at MC Remote 2.0.  It is on the Windows Store and apparently works on Windows Phone 8 devices (I don't know about regular Windows RT, but it probably does or could easily).  That's just a remote control app, I believe, but so was JRemote when it started out.

[soulcancer]

What I think you should do is a simple extendor for the time being. just have Theater View and the ability to see your files on your network. be able to set it up on the desktop, and be able to play to the Windows RT device.


just start off as a streaming device, then see where it goes from there. I would pay extra for Theater View app on my Surface.

[Chaos831]

In addition to owning a Surface2, I've had a Windows8 phone (HTC) for over a year. There is a great app for the phone, nMedium, that controls MC 19 (and previously controlled MC 18) beautifully. Unfortunately last time I checked it isn't available for Surface. Highly recommended!

[Reddy Kilowatt]

I'll add (without commenting on Microsoft's RT strategy) that the RT devices are very good.  They perform well, and while there are only a modest number of 3rd party apps available, the devices are very useful for productivity applications (Word, Excel, Mail, OneNote, etc), and Microsoft has done a much better job at supporting the user in synchronizing data across devices for use by multiple applications.  I'd hate to see slow uptake of these devices result in their abandonment.  Whether 3rd party or 1st party, a remote app for JRiver MC on the RT platform would be much appreciated.

[MrHaugen]

I've been trying to use both Standard and Theater View to control MC on my Surface 2 Pro. It's not great at all. And of-course, all the RT people are left out if you don't count web gizmo. And that's a shame. I really hope that either the Theater View get an overhaul to be better suited for touch, or that you design a easy to use Gizmo variant for the the Modern interface. That would help a lot.