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[Matt]

My current Asus card (the DX) produces no audible hiss or hum, even with my ear in the horn, but the sound quality is not quite as good as I'd like it to be.

I've used the Asus DX as well.  It was pretty hard to beat the $40 price tag, but I didn't have good luck with the drivers:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=55607.msg380363#msg380363

[mwillems]

Quote from: mwillems on Today at 11:23:04 am
My current Asus card (the DX) produces no audible hiss or hum, even with my ear in the horn, but the sound quality is not quite as good as I'd like it to be.

I've used the Asus DX as well.  It was pretty hard to beat the $40 price tag, but I didn't have good luck with the drivers:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=55607.msg380363#msg380363

The drivers were/are terrible.  Asus's drivers have improved somewhat, but I had a few immediate problems with them (not as serious as yours, but not ideal). Fortunately an enterprising fan wrote/rigged his own third party drivers that (for me anyway) just work: http://brainbit.wordpress.com/2010/07/19/asus-xonar-unified-drivers/

I think those got a few mentions in that thread (that may have been where I found out about them, come to think).  But once I downloaded his stripped down low-latency version I've been very satisfied.  It disables the Asus driver management overlay so JRiver can work its magic without interference, and supports ASIO without a hiccup :-)  It's a shame that a soundcard with specs that nice wouldn't function correctly with the stock drivers.  

Edit: It also appears that the H6 is back in production, so the Essence ST is a viable 8 channel solution again.

[Matt]

Edit: It also appears that the H6 is back in production, so the Essence ST is a viable 8 channel solution again.

I think you're right.  I also know quite a few people here use and recommend the H6.

I never got one because they had been discontinued and my DX driver problems had me a little disappointed.

Fortunately an enterprising fan wrote/rigged his own third party drivers that (for me anyway) just work: http://brainbit.wordpress.com/2010/07/19/asus-xonar-unified-drivers/

Jim talked to him once and sent a little donation.  Do you know if they work with the Essence ST, or just the DX line?  And I assume you get 8 channels at once with the Essence + H6 (6 from the H6 and 2 from the Essence)?


Anyway, maybe it's time to get an Essence + H6 and run some tests.

[dean70]

I use this low latency Uni driver with an Essense ST+H6 and it works well.

[Matt]

Can anyone speak to the output levels of the Essence + H6 (or similar HT Omega product)?

I'm wondering how the volume level compares to other DACs?  Will it match the pro-level output of Steinberg, Lynx, etc. gear (ie. +10dB), or will it be similar to other consumer cards?

[mwillems]

Can anyone speak to the output levels of the Essence + H6 (or similar HT Omega product)?

I'm wondering how the volume level compares to other DACs?  Will it match the pro-level output of Steinberg, Lynx, etc. gear (ie. +10dB), or will it be similar to other consumer cards?

Matt, Stereophile tested the ST and the STX, and the line output was a little over 2 VRMS like most consumer equipment.  That's similar to what the DX is rated for.  The ST does have a headphone amplified output (as well) that's something like 7VRMS, but a) that's only stereo, and b) it's a comparatively low output impedance source so probably wouldn't be suitable as a "substitute line output" going to a power amp.  

I think both are higher output than the Creative X-Fi card's line outputs though based on my reading.

http://www.stereophile.com/computeraudio/asus_xonar_essence_ststx_soundcards/

The Unified drivers claim to support the ST and STX, but I don't have first hand experience. My understanding is that you get 8 full channels.

Edit: the Asus was measured at 2.16 Vrms line out, the creative X-fi fatality is rated at 2, so not a significant difference.

[Matt]

Matt, Stereophile tested the ST and the STX, and the line output was a little over 2 VRMS like most consumer equipment.  That's similar to what the DX is rated for as well.  The ST does have a headphone amplified output (as well) that's something like 7VRMS, but a) that's only stereo, and b) it's a comparatively low output impedance source so probably wouldn't be suitable as a "substitute line output" going to a power amp. 

http://www.stereophile.com/computeraudio/asus_xonar_essence_ststx_soundcards/

Thanks for the info.

Now that I've used a few DACs that can go to +10dB, it's a little hard to go back.

Having a loud stereo is a little like having a lawn mower that goes 100mph.  Neither make any sense, but both are fun.

( ps. my lawn mower only has one Matt-power, so maybe I'm compensating with the stereo )

[MrC]

[InflatableMouse]

And I assume you get 8 channels at once with the Essence + H6 (6 from the H6 and 2 from the Essence)?

8 channel analog out, yes. I'm running the ST+H6 combo in my htpc.

I once read the ST is better than the STX, had something to do with a clock or something, I'll see if I can find the article if you're interested?

[mwillems]

Thanks for the info.

Now that I've used a few DACs that can go to +10dB, it's a little hard to go back.

Having a loud stereo is a little like having a lawn mower that goes 100mph.  Neither make any sense, but both are fun.

( ps. my lawn mower only has one Matt-power, so maybe I'm compensating with the stereo )

My lawnmower is similarly limited to one Michael-power, so I know what you mean.  My listening room is small and I've actually got more amplification than I can safely use given the sensitivity/Pmax of my speakers, so DAC output is not my rate limiting factor.  

But your mains are 20 dB down from your sub on the same amp, right?  So I can definitely see how an extra 10 dB on the front end might be a significant improvement.  

All that said, I just put in an order for an ST/H6 for experimental purposes in an unusual application.  It will almost certainly be a sound quality improvement over the DX, which would be an improvement all by itself, but it also has a fairly powerful headphone amp.  I mentioned in the other thread that I've had a really hard time finding an amp and/or DAC that will quietly drive my 112dB-118 dB sensitivity compression drivers, and I'm currently driving them off of a 1 watt headphone amp (not joking).  My 1 watt amp has plenty of power for my purposes (It'll play them to at least 92 dB at one meter with 20 dB of overhead), but if the headphone amp in the ST has nicer SQ (and enough power), I could drive the horns right off the headphone jack on the sound card, and possibly have ten channels instead of eight :-)

Even if the amp isn't robust enough for my purposes, the 8-channel line out SQ will be an improvement, so I won't be too sad if it doesn't work out.  But if it does it will be hilarious.

[InflatableMouse]

I could drive the horns right off the headphone jack on the sound card, and possibly have ten channels instead of eight :-)

I'm afraid you can't use the line and headphone outputs simultaneously.

[mwillems]

I'm afraid you can't use the line and headphone outputs simultaneously.

Yikes! Even with the stripped down unified drivers?  Do you know if that's a hardware limitation or a driver limitation?  Ah well, I may just have to settle for improved line out SQ :-)

Thanks for the heads up about that.

[InflatableMouse]

Hardware. I can hear a relay clicking.

[mojave]

The Unified drivers work great with the Essence ST and H6. I think those are really the best way to go. Regarding output levels, I think it is the same as my Creative X-Fi Elite and lower than the pro audio devices.

Matt, do you want me to send the Essence ST and H6 to you for some playing around? I keep planning on putting it in my work computer, but so far it has just sat in a box in the closet.

[mwillems]

Hardware. I can hear a relay clicking.

Curses.  Well I'll report back on any sound-quality gains I experience with the new card, but it looks like the humorous part of my plan has been quashed :-)

Thanks again!

[mwillems]

So I got my ST and H6 today and got them wired up.  Installation took a few tries (the power connectors on the Asus cards sometimes need reseating before they'll properly detect as being plugged in), but all in all it took less than an hour from shut down to newly operational.  The difference in sound quality from the DX is subtle but noticeable. 

As observed by Inflatable Mouse, the headphone output will not function while the 8 channel output is also functioning.  I also can't find a way to flip the switch between the two in JRiver, I only seem to be able to change it over in the Asus Control Panel.  Which is really odd, because JRiver seems to have no problem overriding other ACP settings in ASIO mode, but it may just be something that only the driver can do. 

I've only had a few hours to listen to it, but I have three primary technical observations:

1) The output is slightly hotter than the DX, and I had to reset my JRiver reference levels.  The difference is two or three dB.

2) The ST is (as I've connected it anyway) very slightly higher noise than my DX.  I say this because while the DX produced no audible noise of any kind in my HF drivers, the ST produces soft audible noise in one channel only, but no noise in any of the other channels.  The noise isn't audible (over room noise) from more than a foot away.  One thing I observed when originally connecting the DX was that, depending on what else was connected to the same molex as it was, I got a different noise floor, and I experimented until I found the "zero noise" molex connector.  Because the ST and the DX take a different pin connector, I couldn't just use the same "no noise" connector, but I tried two or three different connectors and picked the lowest noise one I found so far.  I'm going to try and troubleshoot this and will edit the post if I find a way to eliminate the noise floor on the ST.  This is one of the unusual features of the Asus cards, i.e. that they have a separate non-PCI (or PCIe) power supply and are very sensitive to noise in that supply, unlike the M-audio and creative internal cards I've used in the past (which had far different problems, don't get me wrong).

3) The sound quality is definitely better, and I'd have to say that my sub-bass and mid-bass both sound significantly "tighter" and punchier. I'd say the effect on the total package is that the sound is "airier" and less muddy overall.  My DX (and now the ST) was connected directly to my power amps (i.e. I'm using the sound card as my pre-amp), and I almost wonder (for this and other reasons) whether the DX had a high enough line voltage/output impedance to drive my power amp. 

Regardless, the ST sounds clearly and noticeably better, but probably not enough better that I would recommend the ST/H6 combo over the DX to a budget-conscious stranger who needed an 8-channel dac given the price tag is more than triple.  That said, incremental improvement is still improvement, and every audiophile tweaking endeavor reaches a point where improvement becomes increasingly marginal.  I'll be hanging onto the ST :-)

I'll edit this post if I find a molex that cures the noise floor or if I encounter stability/driver issues at some point (I don't expect to, but you never know with PC audio).  If anyone needs a DX for testing or use, I've got a spare that needs a home ;-)

[Matt]

@mwillems
Thanks for the extra details about the ST + H6.

the ST produces soft audible noise in one channel only

Double-check the cabling.  I've had multiple occasions where a little noise like this was because a cable crossed a power code, got too close to a power brick, etc.

[mwillems]

Double-check the cabling.  I've had multiple occasions where a little noise like this was because a cable crossed a power code, got too close to a power brick, etc.

I thought that might be it too, but I haven't been able to resolve it by moving/reconnecting the cables. The noise seems to change in pitch and intensity with processor activity so I'm pretty sure it's inside the case.  I'll pull the PC apart again tomorrow and see if I can't root it out. 

[InflatableMouse]

Is that noise you can hear from the speakers when you pause playback and turn up the volume?

If its that, I can tell you I have none of that. My molex is split from the same one that connects to 2 or 3 harddisks.

[mwillems]

Is that noise you can hear from the speakers when you pause playback and turn up the volume?

If its that, I can tell you I have none of that. My molex is split from the same one that connects to 2 or 3 harddisks.

It is noise that I hear when all components are on (computer, amps, etc.) and nothing is playing on the computer.  I swapped around molexs, and by using an adapter managed to put it on the same molex the DX previously was on (which feeds my dvd and blu-ray drives).  That reduced the noise to a gentle rustling noise that I could only hear when I put my ear in the right horn, the left horn is still dead silent.  The DX had no such rustling in either horn when connected to the same molex with more or less identical outputs and interconnects (the only difference in this part of the signal path is the removal of an 1/8 inch to rca adaptor, which should improve things, not hurt them). While the ST is a PCI not a PCI-E card (so it's not in the exact same motherboard slot), I previously operated an M-audio 192 in this exact PCI slot with no audible noise (the 192 didn't have a separate power connector though, which may be part of the issue).  So I'm fairly sure the noise is coming from the ST.

While it's possible the card (or my installation) is somehow defective, I honestly think it's performing as intended.  It's just the problem with having speakers with efficiency in the 110s; noise that would be inaudible in a 92 dB sensitivity speaker (or soft to the point of barely being audible in a 102 dB sensitivity speaker) is clearly audible in a 112 dB sensitivity speaker.  Stereophile's measurements of the ST suggested the 124 dB SNR advertised was probably exaggerated by 10 or even 20 dB: "However, ref. 1V output, I measured 114dB for the STX, which is still superb, but 102dB for the ST".  The ST is (again in my set up) measurably louder than the DX as well, and even assuming similar noise characteristics, that 2 or 3 dB may just be the difference between no audible noise and barely audible noise. 

Regardless, In this case the rustling is now what I'd call "barely audible" which is good enough for me given the card's other advantages  :-)

[InflatableMouse]

Cool, thanks for explaining.

I don't think its a defect, I think what you are seeing hearing might be a difference in power supplies. If you have one laying around, you could try a different PSU.

[Mikkel]

I took some measurements a while a go of the Essence ST card measured with RMAA at 192khz 24-bit. Thought they might be interesting for those interested in the card.

Haven't tried measuring the H6-card since I don't know how to (perhaps it is possible in the licensed version of RMAA but not with the free one).


Best regards,
Mikkel

[dean70]

I posted the question to Asus if they would ever do a DSD capable version of the Essence ST. The DAC used in the ST has native DSD support - it just needs the right clock and support interface.

[InflatableMouse]

I posted the question to Asus if they would ever do a DSD capable version of the Essence ST. The DAC used in the ST has native DSD support - it just needs the right clock and support interface.

Isn't it then just driver support?

[GreggP]

Just curious... Are those of you using the Asus Essence HT6 combo satisfied?

I'm thinking about using the combo on one of my systems. First I need to sell my Echo AudioFire 8.

They will be connected directly to Hypex amp modules and I'm not sure how well they'll work since they probably have consumer level signal voltage.

I'm hoping the Asus combo will sound as good. And, maybe since it is a consumer audio device, the drivers will be better for HT.  Echo no longer makes audio interfaces and is concentrating on a new pro audio networking product, so I doubt there will be any new updates to their drivers.

[mwillems]

Just curious... Are those of you using the Asus Essence HT6 combo satisfied?

I'm thinking about using the combo on one of my systems. First I need to sell my Echo AudioFire 8.

I still have an ST and H6, but I would not recommend it.  In the same price range Asus offers a comparable external interface (the U7) with better drivers (in my own experience), and there are much better 8-channel output interfaces with balanced outputs available if you're willing to pay more (the focusrite 18i20 and Steinberg UR824 being two good examples).  

I personally found the ST's drivers questionable (the third party unified drivers were better, but still quirky), and it's electrical isolation left something to be desired (I never did get rid of the noise I mentioned above).  I still use mine in a secondary system, but not for critical listening or with sensitive drivers.

They will be connected directly to Hypex amp modules and I'm not sure how well they'll work since they probably have consumer level signal voltage.

The consumer line-level should not be an issue as Hypex's amp modules are generally fully driven at fairly low voltage.  The unbalanced outputs on the other hand may be a more serious issue (ground hum, etc.).  The app notes at Hypex provide some workarounds, but there are no guarantees without a balanced connection.

[GreggP]

That's too bad about the Essence ST + H6 combo. I looked at the reviews for the U7 and it didn't seem too impressive. I'm trying to find something with high-quality DACs and good analog output electronics, but with drivers that will work well in a non-professional (recording studio) environment. I'll probably stick with my Echo AudioFire 8 a little longer. It's specs (SNR) are comparable to the Focusrite and Steinberg audio interfaces. Echo provides a WDM driver so it behaves just like a typical soundcard with Windows apps like Windows Media Center. And since we use this HTPC with WMC to watch and record cable TV, I don't want to switch to a different audio interface that can only be used in JRiver MC with an ASIO driver.

I think we'd have a lot more hardware options if Microsoft were to provide a native USB Audio Class 2.0 driver.

[dean70]

My experience with the ST+H6 is better. 2.5 years on and still going strong    Use the Unified drivers (not the current buggy version) & have taken extra care with grounding, RFI shielding around the card. Feed with a quality low ripple PSU & should have the best chance of a successful setup.

[mwillems]

That's too bad about the Essence ST + H6 combo. I looked at the reviews for the U7 and it didn't seem too impressive.

I have both (a U7 and an ST), and the driver support on the U7 is by far superior on windows (the reverse is true in Linux).  The sound quality is not significantly different.  The ST measures better in a lab (e.g. Asus's measurements), but most real world reviews and measurements of the ST show it with a comparable or worse SNR to the U7 (due to it's poor isolation).  It's also a PCI card (not PCIE) which means it's effectively EOL, and not likely to receive driver updates too much longer. 

If I were really looking for an internal card like that, I'd be looking at the new STX-II

I'm trying to find something with high-quality DACs and good analog output electronics, but with drivers that will work well in a non-professional (recording studio) environment. I'll probably stick with my Echo AudioFire 8 a little longer. It's specs (SNR) are comparable to the Focusrite and Steinberg audio interfaces. Echo provides a WDM driver so it behaves just like a typical soundcard with Windows apps like Windows Media Center. And since we use this HTPC with WMC to watch and record cable TV, I don't want to switch to a different audio interface that can only be used in JRiver MC with an ASIO driver.

Just for your reference, JRiver now includes a WDM driver input that allows routing of all windows sounds through JRiver if you happen to have a soundcard that only provides an ASIO driver. 

[GreggP]

I have both (a U7 and an ST), and the driver support on the U7 is by far superior on windows (the reverse is true in Linux).  The sound quality is not significantly different.  The ST measures better in a lab (e.g. Asus's measurements), but most real world reviews and measurements of the ST show it with a comparable or worse SNR to the U7 (due to it's poor isolation).  It's also a PCI card (not PCIE) which means it's effectively EOL, and not likely to receive driver updates too much longer.  

If I were really looking for an internal card like that, I'd be looking at the new STX-II

Just for your reference, JRiver now includes a WDM driver input that allows routing of all windows sounds through JRiver if you happen to have a soundcard that only provides an ASIO driver.

I've tried using JRiver's WDM driver and haven't had much success with my hardware. After selecting it as my default playback device and then picking properties to set the format for sample rate and bitdepth, the dialog seems to lock up without accepting my settings. The swirling circle processing icon spins indefinitely. When I try to close the dialog, I get the message "Windows Shell Common DLL is not responding." Also, the speaker setup controls don't work and will eventually generate the same error message.

Without being able to adjust the WDM driver settings, I am stuck with the audio getting downsampled to 16 bit/ 44.1 KHz, which is the default sample rate/bitdepth.

Anyhow, so far it doesn't work with my hardware. I'm still trying to troubleshoot the problem.

[GreggP]

After rebooting my PC, I was able to get the JRiver WDM driver working. It seems to work pretty well, but using my Microsoft MCE remote is a little screwy. Obviously, you have to have MC20 running in the background. So when I run Windows Media Center to watch TV, the remote is controlling both applications and there are buttons that might do one thing for one app and something else for the other. For example, if you pick the Green button, WMC goes to the main menu. Simultaneously, MC20 displays the main Theater View screen simultaneously. Even though you are running WMC, Theater View takes over the screen.

Also, the volume control with the remote is weird. The range or scale is different between WMC and MC20. When you use the remote to adjust the volume with WMC, the setting may say '20', but it could still be fairly quiet. Normally that setting was pretty loud. With WMC's volume set to 50, it should be at full volume, but it is not. When I adjust the volume to 0 (mute) there is still sound.

Not very WAF friendly.

[JimH]

MC can disable WMC.  It's in the options.  I realize you may want something different.

You can tell MC to run Media Server on Windows Start.  For WDM purposes, it's the same as having MC open.

[GreggP]

MC can disable WMC.  It's in the options.  I realize you may want something different.

You can tell MC to run Media Server on Windows Start.  For WDM purposes, it's the same as having MC open.

Yeah, for watching and recording encrypted cable TV, we prefer WMC, so it would be great if our remote worked correctly with both applications running. Since this PC doesn't normally run Media Server (we usually load the library from a different PC on our network), I hadn't tried it with just Media Server in the background.

With just Media Server running, we no longer have any volume control with our Microsoft MCE remote. Even after launching MC20, I still can't control WMC's volume using my remote. It "sort-of" worked with MC20's volume control set to 'internal volume'. I can no longer get it to work. Now the only way I can adjust the volume is to move the slider with my mouse.

I will post these comments on a new thread or one that addresses the WDM driver.

[JimH]

With just Media Server running, we no longer have any volume control with our Microsoft MCE remote. Even after launching MC20, I still can't control WMC's volume using my remote. It "sort-of" worked with MC20's volume control set to 'internal volume'. I can no longer get it to work. Now the only way I can adjust the volume is to move the slider with my mouse.

WMC is grabbing the volume, and disabling it may be the only possibility.  MC will disable it when MC starts, then re-enable it on exit.

[Sparks67]

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