Topic: Click/Pop between track changes [Solved] (Read 31111 times)

sla · « **on:** February 02, 2013, 08:55:54 pm »

JRiver 18 [I am registered user] on clean install Windows 7 on dedicated music server computer connected to Mytek 192 DSD via USB 2.0.
WASAPI- event style mode, BitStreaming DSD over PCM, [PCM files send as 24bit]

I hear click/pop when changing tracks or EVEN when playing one album GAPLESS mode, it is probably on all SACDs/CDs but on most albums the clicks are almost not noticeable on some they are extreme:
Examples: Sara Brightman La Luna between track 1 and 2, Gianna Nanini - Pearle all tracks, Pink Floyd SACD between track 3 and 4, also the same click/pop on CD between track 3 and 4. [= but I could not hear click/pop between track 1 and 2, 2 and 3...]. SACDs are being played directly from iso files, CDs are being played from flac files.

Play from Memory, Off/On does not effect it,

Regarding Buffers: Lowering Buffer to Minimum Hardware -> no sound output/[but no error either], Buffer set to 10ms super many clicks/pops - even during the playback. Actually even with recommended setting I think I an hear pop/crack sometimes during playback [in the middle of tracks but rarely... but I cannot really confirm that 100% - with buffer 10ms it is super obvious].

I think it is gotta be something wrong on JRiver side? Something with buffers? I can provide the files for comparison but the fact that it does it with both SACDs and CDs makes me suspicious... and the fact that it does the same way on PF - DSODM - either SACD or CD is something to think about...

I have experimented with turning off all USB devices [I have only two: Flirc, USB Keyboard/Mouse - they are on different USB Hub], turning off all USB 3.0, PCI-e, no effect. Same pops/clicks from speakers and headphones directly connected to DAC.

sla · « **Reply #1 on:** February 05, 2013, 04:10:15 am »

Hmm... Please no help?

Can somebody please confirm that JRiver plays Pink Floyd Dark Side of the Moon in WASAPI -Event Style Mode BitStreaming DoP without a click between track 3 and 4 [SACD or CD], possibly telling what DACs they are using [not that many out there that can play DSD]....

I am fully aware that it could be hardware (but it is weird - the clicks I am describing are always in the same place?) but I check my PC with latency checker and no problem at all.

sla · « **Reply #2 on:** February 05, 2013, 04:13:33 am »

Unfortunately, I cannot check it on other machines I have because they are running either Ubuntu or Windows XP - I do not have another licence for Windows 7

sla · « **Reply #3 on:** February 05, 2013, 04:49:09 am »

I see the similar issue was discussed and acknowledged in ""Pop" sounds still heard between DSF tracks" tread (September 27).

It seems it have not been resolved yet?

Since I am getting the same error when playing PCM files it would indicate software bug,

Can we please confirm it as a BUG so people would know that? [= similar to Ubuntu, MythTV bug features?]

I am using 18.0.70

JimH · « **Reply #4 on:** February 05, 2013, 06:49:20 am »

If it is a bug, it is probably in the driver. On our wiki, please see this topic and related topics on Audio:
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Audio_Output_Modes

The thread called "Weird Problems" (link in my signature) has other possible causes.

You can also try using DSP Studio to force all audio to the same bitrate and sample rate. Some devices don't handle changes well.

You're using an old version, so please update before posting again.

sla · « **Reply #5 on:** February 05, 2013, 07:10:41 am »

I am aware of Audio_output_modes. Please...

I am not talking about tick/pop/click when switching between DSD and PCM. I am talking gapless playback of DSD and PCM in Wasapi Even Style, Bitstream problem.

Yes there could be hundred different reasons (drivers, software in the background, cables,faulty memory,latency,magnetic fields from amplifiers - but these usually results in random click/pops) but it could also be a BUG in WASAPI Even Style BitStream...

I checked .128 version - the same thing... [and yes please it took me ONE HOUR to take the dedicated computer out and move it all closed to the router so I can connect to to Internet - apparently for nothing...]

Normally when the bug is reported somebody from the team tries to reproduce it. If it is reproduced then it is investigated if it is a bug.

Matt has acknowledge the pop/click in this thread http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=74513.0 he releases a "fix" using different gapless:

v0.61 "13. NEW: SACD ISO playback uses gapless mode instead of exactly honoring the track offsets in the disc table of contents (which might not be perfectly gapless)."
v.0.49 "1. Fixed: DoP playback could fall out of DoP mode during a buffer shortfall (like between tracks)."
v.0.53 "4. Faster: Improved the performance when bitstreaming DSD."

So what I am asking is: is it fixed? Does anybody can reproduce the similar behaviour? [if it is fixed then I will start looking for other hardware solutions]

Matt · « **Reply #6 on:** February 05, 2013, 10:41:36 am »

There are no known issues with DSD playback or bitstreaming. That doesn't mean there couldn't be a problem, but it's not something we're hearing from others.

I actually have 3 Mytek 192's on my desk right now and they work great here.

Maybe you could try ASIO instead of WASAPI?

Also, focus on PCM. Once you're confident that's working perfectly, move on to DSD bitstreaming.

sla · « **Reply #7 on:** February 05, 2013, 05:39:33 pm »

Ok, thank you. Hmmm... I will have to start turning all programs off... I will report findings...

I tried ASIO, little better [quiter pops] but still there.

Matt: When you have chance to check - what are your Buffer settings? in JRiver and USBPal

Matt · « **Reply #8 on:** February 05, 2013, 05:53:37 pm »

Are you doing PCM only like I suggested?

sla · « **Reply #9 on:** February 05, 2013, 07:13:20 pm »

I will start with PCM... [although my main interest is in DSD], I did not ripped Sara Brightman and Gianna Nanini in PCM. I have also ordered better USB Cable [with filters].

BTW: Windows 7 is 64bit... I wonder if that could have any effect.

sla · « **Reply #10 on:** February 05, 2013, 09:06:37 pm »

Still doing DSD, so I took first SACD iso "3 doors down - under the sun"

DSD Shows:

Track 1. 4:17, but JRiver goes to 4:19 -> NO POP/TICK
Track 2. 3:52, JR goes to 3:54 -> NO POP/TICK
Track 3. 4:00, JR stops at 4:00 -> TICK
Track 4. 3:26 JR stops at 3:26 -> TICK
Track 5. 3:33 JR stops at 3:32/3 -> TICK
Track 6 3:56 JR stops at 3:57 -> NO POP/TICK
Track 7 4:05 JR stops at 4:05 -> TICK
Track 8 3:36 JR stops at 3:35 -> TICK
Track 9 3:56 JR stops at 3:55 -> TICK [not really audible as next track goes right away loud]
Track 10 3:28 JR stops at 3:27 -> TICK
Track 11 3:17 JR stops at 3:16 -> TICK
Track 12 5:18 JR stops at Huh probably no tick

Now PCM [Made with Exact Audio Copy] shows:
Track 1. 4:21, but JRiver goes to ONLY to 4:19 -> NO POP/TICK
Track 2. 3:53, JR goes ONLY to 3:51 -> NO POP/TICK
Track 3. 3:59, JR stops at 3:59 -> NO POP/TICK
Track 4. 3:27 JR stops at 3:26 -> NO POP/TICK
Track 5. 3:31 JR stops at 3:29 -> NO POP/TICK
Track 6 3:58 JR stops at 3:56 -> NO POP/TICK
Track 7 4:07 JR stops at 4:05 -> NO POP/TICK
Track 8 3:36 JR stops at 3:35 -> NO POP/TICK
Track 9 3:56 JR stops at 3:56 -> NO POP/TICK
Track 10 3:28 JR stops at 3:28 -> NO POP/TICK
Track 11 3:17 JR stops at 3:17 -> NO POP/TICK
Track 12 5:18 NO POP/TICK

So there is a pattern here -> there is a tick when JRiver cuts it short or exactly on time? Why does it add 2 seconds to other? but it does not seems like it ads those 2 seconds...

I checked PCM PF - DSODM "this time no tick between track 3 and 4". So I think PCM playback is fine. I can hear tick on SACD ISO.

During SACD ISO playback CPU is occupied 15-35%, (20-40% in Theatre View Mode) PCM playback 5-10%, I do not see any latency spike at all.
I do not see obvious CPU activity when tracks are being changed in DSD mode. [actually maybe there is a small spike to 45-50% CPU]

[Now I have a click/pop a the very beginning of first track which is related to spike to 100% in CPU usage], No errors reported in USBPal...

Attaching screen shots
1. CPU spike at 100% when loading SACD ISO
2. No obvious CPU spike when changing tracks

So it is possible that it is CPU power issue [my current CPU is Athlon II x2 270u (2 core 25W)], I have Phenom II x4 lying around so I will check it and report.

Matt · « **Reply #11 on:** February 05, 2013, 10:01:33 pm »

To make sure I understand, you're saying:
1) PCM works perfectly
2) Track transitions from a SACD when bitstreaming DSD using ASIO sometimes tick

What if you play #2, but use PCM output?

sla · « **Reply #12 on:** February 06, 2013, 07:40:07 am »

1. It looks like PCM plays fine [please remember I do only limited listening on PCM on this machine]

2. DSD in ASIO and WASAPI - Event Style, small ticks between tracks.

3. DSD -> PCM =176.4k, CPU 30-50%, I can hear ticks but I think they are softer [quiter?] then direct DSD playback, "I think I have also heard similar tick when CPU went 100% couple times..."

Now I can also hear ticks in PCM [SACD ISO -> DSD -> PCM] after track 1 and 2 on SACD "3 doors down", I switched back to DSD [WASAPI] -> no ticks after track 1 and 2 but ticks after other tracks...
So it seems DSD->PCM introduced more ticks... so probably CPU spikes? When JRiver changes the track there is more activity for CPU, ? DPC problems occurs and that results in small tick...

Hmmm....so it is probably CPU??? Tomorrow I will put Phenom in and we will see...

Matt · « **Reply #13 on:** February 06, 2013, 11:27:58 am »

Do you know that the SACD plays without ticks on any player? I've seen some DSD tracks mastered in a non-gapless way.

sla · « **Reply #14 on:** February 06, 2013, 12:50:09 pm »

I will reconnect my SONY XA5400ES tomorrow [first I will try changing CPU] and will let you know...

sla · « **Reply #15 on:** February 07, 2013, 10:50:20 am »

BUMMER...

I have changed CPU -> same thing. (PCM perfect, DSD ticks between some tracks on certain SACDs in gapless playback [always ticks between the same tracks] + Tick/pops when loading SACD first and when switching tracks manually - BTW: THERE IS A HUGE SPIKE IN CPU demand when new SACD is set to play and when manually changing track within the same SACD?

I am attaching screen-shots. I am using SSD so it should not be a problem with reading files, I actually played ISO from all 3 SSD drives I have in this comp -> same results.

I checked SACDs in XA5400ES - > all play smoothy (attached picture)

The questions I have for Matt:
- do you play from ISO files???
- do you have any of 3 SACDs I have mentioned?
- do you see CPU spikes when new SACD is load, do you see spikes when manually changing tracks

[I think those spikes are related to pops/ticks I hear...] [see last picture when I can see a spike in CPU activity when JRiver Plays La Luna SACD gapless -> between track 1 and track 2 big spike and big tick]

? BUG...

Anybody has any ideas? [I waiting for Kimber USB Cable with filters, should be here today -> I will report]

sla · « **Reply #16 on:** February 07, 2013, 10:51:19 am »

2 more pictures

Matt · « **Reply #17 on:** February 07, 2013, 11:05:31 am »

Could you upload an ISO somewhere (Dropbox, Google Drive, etc.) so I could test the same exact file?

Thanks.

sla · « **Reply #18 on:** February 08, 2013, 07:30:21 am »

I am working on uploading the files...

I have changed computer preferences to "Adjust for Best Performance" and it did help to lower the level of "ticks/clicks" [not it is not obvious to notice it] - so it is possible that many people did not notice it.
[La Luna change between track 1 and 2 is still relatively easy to notice],

what I have learned is that the three SACDs I have mentioned are: DST compressed...

sla · « **Reply #19 on:** February 12, 2013, 07:43:51 am »

Matt, I have send you email with the location of the file.

Matt · « **Reply #20 on:** February 12, 2013, 03:40:36 pm »

Thanks for the sample.

When listening as PCM, I hear a small tick between track #1 to #2.

If I spoof the TOC and play track #1 and #2 continuously, it's perfectly gapless.

So I think there's some sort of TOC parsing issue. It might take me a few days, but I believe we should be able to fix the tick.

Thanks again for all your help.

sla · « **Reply #21 on:** February 13, 2013, 03:58:43 am »

thank you for checking on that. great I could help. Good news: the tick from track 1 and track 2 on this SACD is the most pronounced among all SACDs I own and tested...

Matt · « **Reply #22 on:** February 14, 2013, 01:16:37 pm »

Next build:
Fixed: SACD playback could have a slight tick between tracks when the ISO file used DST compression.
Faster: The program does less work between tracks when switching between two files of the same format.
Changed: DSD playback as PCM uses continuous filters between tracks instead of new filters each track, removing a possible subtle noise at track boundaries.

Thanks again for the sample. It really helped.

sla · « **Reply #23 on:** February 14, 2013, 05:49:21 pm »

Awesome. Thank you. JRiver is a fantastic piece of software -> very complex though...

Anyway: JRiver -> Mytek DSD is better then XA5400ES [and that player was class A+ from Stereophile]

lurcher · « **Reply #24 on:** April 20, 2013, 04:24:49 pm »

Hi, Can I tag some info onto this thread, I am looking into a similar problem (well it sounds identical).

Using a Amanero USB interface, and the current JRiver download. I see the same DSD drop out both when changing between DSD files, and more so, moving between PCM and DSD.

Looking at the DSD Enable line from the interface, I see a constant but single 75ms drop when moving from DSD to DSD. When moving from PCM to DSD I see a stream of these transitions, it seem to repeat until the file is ready to play, so the period that the pulses in the dsd enable line occur varies from a second to several seconds. If I set a pause between tracks, then the sequence repeats during the pause.

This may (from the sound of it) be something that has already been addressed, but I just wanted to pass on the results of looking at the setup with a scope.

JimH · « **Reply #25 on:** April 20, 2013, 04:51:10 pm »

Welcome to the board. When you report a problem, please also report the full version number that you are using. 18.0.171 is at the top of the MC18 board.

the.mains.man · « **Reply #26 on:** April 20, 2013, 05:19:11 pm »

Quote from: Matt on February 14, 2013, 01:16:37 pm

Next build:
Fixed: SACD playback could have a slight tick between tracks when the ISO file used DST compression.
Faster: The program does less work between tracks when switching between two files of the same format.
Changed: DSD playback as PCM uses continuous filters between tracks instead of new filters each track, removing a possible subtle noise at track boundaries.

Thanks again for the sample. It really helped.

hi
does that mean the fixes you have applied for the DSD issue are in a new jriver version to download now?

thanks

Robert Hutton · « **Reply #27 on:** April 20, 2013, 05:38:10 pm »

Switch to kernel mode and all DSD popping noise issues will disappear.

lurcher · « **Reply #28 on:** April 20, 2013, 05:54:46 pm »

Quote from: JimH on April 20, 2013, 04:51:10 pm

Welcome to the board. When you report a problem, please also report the full version number that you are using. 18.0.171 is at the top of the MC18 board.

Sorry, this is with 18.0.158

Sounds like I should try 18.0.171?

JimH · « **Reply #29 on:** April 20, 2013, 06:18:19 pm »

Quote from: lurcher on April 20, 2013, 05:54:46 pm

Sorry, this is with 18.0.158

Sounds like I should try 18.0.171?

Trying the latest build is always a good idea if you find a problem.

JimH · « **Reply #30 on:** April 20, 2013, 06:21:06 pm »

The latest build is 18.0.171. It's at the top of this board.

sla · « **Reply #31 on:** April 20, 2013, 07:01:18 pm »

As far as I know the problem is UNFORTUNATELY still there and that is a shame.

As far as I know the it has been fixed in 18.0.132 (for ISO files, not for DFF files...) but it somehow broke the ability to Forward and Rewind withing DSD files so the REVERSE was applied I think in 18.0.153, I did posted that the new built broke fix for DSD "tick" but I assume the developers got busy with Ceton... that is a shame...

So no as far as I know it has not been fixed. [I am using v132]

JimH · « **Reply #32 on:** April 20, 2013, 07:26:34 pm »

What is the latest version you have tried?

lurcher · « **Reply #33 on:** April 21, 2013, 12:43:29 pm »

Ok, I may be stealing someone’s thread here, sorry.

Using 18.0.171 and Kernel mode the problem is just about fixed. :-)

Just one small and less vital issue. When playing a DSD file, and selecting another DSD file, there is still the 75ms transition from DSD to PCM and back to DSD.

the.mains.man · « **Reply #34 on:** April 23, 2013, 01:06:49 pm »

Quote from: lurcher on April 21, 2013, 12:43:29 pm

Ok, I may be stealing someone’s thread here, sorry.

Using 18.0.171 and Kernel mode the problem is just about fixed. :-)

Just one small and less vital issue. When playing a DSD file, and selecting another DSD file, there is still the 75ms transition from DSD to PCM and back to DSD.

nearly fixed but not 100%

no pop or click from the speakers now when using wasapi event style or kernel modes, but when playing dsd material and manually changing from one track to another loud noise (white noise I suspect) is heard and the song is playing in the background quietly

chaning to kerenl streaming or asio or wasapi does not solve it

24/192 and all other material plays fine, it is only dsd when switching from one track to the next

anyone have any ideas please?

the.mains.man · « **Reply #35 on:** April 24, 2013, 05:45:42 am »

Quote from: the.mains.man on April 23, 2013, 01:06:49 pm

nearly fixed but not 100%

no pop or click from the speakers now when using wasapi event style or kernel modes, but when playing dsd material and manually changing from one track to another loud noise (white noise I suspect) is heard and the song is playing in the background quietly

chaning to kerenl streaming or asio or wasapi does not solve it

24/192 and all other material plays fine, it is only dsd when switching from one track to the next

anyone have any ideas please?

please?

JimH · « **Reply #36 on:** April 24, 2013, 06:56:54 am »

Sound artifacts associated with track changes are often related to the device or driver.

You can use DSP Studio's output format to upsample everything to the highest rate your DAC supports.

rinoatomy · « **Reply #37 on:** June 13, 2013, 10:35:05 pm »

I'm having the exact same problem with PCM at 24/192kbps. Eventual clicks and pops and no gapless between some tracks. SACD.iso as well.

MAC VERSION in my case, sorry.

Henglander · « **Reply #38 on:** June 14, 2013, 01:33:35 pm »

Just saw this thread, sorry for the double post...

I use sacd iso's and get clicks between tracks and when switching. I am using mc18.0.195
win7->vlink 192kHz->naim dac

David R. Williams · « **Reply #39 on:** January 29, 2014, 06:19:27 pm »

As documented elsewhere in the MC19 forum, it's been recently discovered that the end-of-track ticks with dsf files extracted from SACD iso's are the result of a bug within the iso extraction program if the dsf files are extracted from the iso.

The workaround at this point is to extract dff files from the iso, and then convert the resulting dff's to dsf's with AudioGate to enable use of the file tagging support that dsf's provide (and is largely absent from dff's).

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Author Topic: Click/Pop between track changes [Solved] (Read 31111 times)