INTERACT FORUM

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: MadVR 0.86.0 adds Frame [interpolation]/blending.  (Read 35563 times)

Sandy B Ridge

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 884
MadVR 0.86.0 adds Frame [interpolation]/blending.
« on: February 21, 2013, 06:42:56 am »

I see on the doom9 forum that madshi has released a new version with a new feature of frame interpolation/blending.

I've worked quite hard to get no framedrops on my system and now get quite consistent playback at 24/50/60 Hz. For various reasons I have abandoned the quest for 23.976 and 59.94 due to hardware restrictions downstream from the HTPC. Using Videoclock seems to work pretty well in this scenario.

Is the new madvr feature a game-changer? I can't immediately see that this is something that will benefit my setup. Am I missing something?

SBR
Logged

6233638

  • Regular Member
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 5353
Re: MadVR 0.86.0 adds Frame interpolation/blending.
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2013, 07:46:36 am »

If you are outputting close to 24/50/60Hz (rather than being stuck at 60Hz only) then using VideoClock or ReClock will avoid frame drops/repeats and audio sync problems by resampling the audio. (this should be a transparent process) There's no need to be outputting exactly 24/1.001, or 60/1.001

If you are either locked to 60Hz, or insist on bitstreaming, the new options should eliminate frame drops/repeats and audio sync problems without resampling the audio, but by blending video frames instead.

In my limited testing, 24p at 60Hz was certainly not smooth with this - but maybe it was smoother? Judder is judder to me.
Ghosting from the frame blending was pretty obvious to me, but maybe I am sensitive to that sort of thing.

I would say that outputting close to 24/50/60Hz and using VideoClock or ReClock is the better option, if you can use it.
If you insist on bitstreaming (I don't recommend it) or are unfortunately locked to 60Hz, it's certainly worth trying to see if you prefer it or not.
Logged

jmone

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 14465
  • I won! I won!
Re: MadVR 0.86.0 adds Frame interpolation/blending.
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2013, 04:42:13 pm »

It is a great addition as it offers another solution in some situations.  As 6233638 says the best quality solution is to switch the Monitor Refresh rate to match(ish) the FPS and use VideoClock to keep it all perfectly in Sync..... but this will require a Monitor to support 24/50/60hz (or multiples of these).  This is all good on my HTPC/AVR/TV setup, but my PC Monitor (which I do some limited media watching on), only supports 50/60hz (eg no 24hz).

So I now have a choice (or should I say compromise) on when I watch 23.976fps material, I can have either:
- "Traditional" judder from the pulldown patter used to push 24fps into a 60fps package, or
- "New" frame blending from madVR new feature.  It does seem "softer" to my eyes and I it seems to be more prone to dropping/delaying frames than before ... but does it look "better"??  Mmmmm I really don't know yet and will have to do more testing on various content.

The good news is that it does give a unique option, but it will depend on the users setup and how each bit of the chain does it job (including how the Monitor/TV does its own blending / interpolation).
Logged
JRiver CEO Elect

SpeedD408

  • World Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 152
Re: MadVR 0.86.0 adds Frame interpolation/blending.
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2013, 10:23:57 pm »

Just thought I would mention that 0.86.1 is out.

madVR v0.86.1

* added smooth motion frame rate conversion algorithm
* added settings page for smooth motion frc configuration
* added "trade quality for performance" option for smooth motion frc
* added test patterns to madTestPatternSource to test smooth motion frc
* fixed: RGB input with odd width/height is now accepted untouched
* fixed: IVideoWindow::put_Owner() failed when pins were not connected yet
* fixed: madHcCtrl.exe autostart registry entry was incorrect / not working
* fixed: occasional crash when using DXVA scaling with high-bitdepth content
* fixed: green line at the left image border when using DXVA scaling
* file "settings.bin" is not written into win7/8 "VirtualStore", anymore
* slightly improved multi monitor behaviour (when using DXVA or MPC-BE)
* improved exclusive mode presentation timing with jittery audio clock a bit
* filter enumeration timer is now only active during DVD playback
* extended logging for fullscreen exclusive presentation queue
* internal software video decoders are now disabled by default (again)
Logged
Media PC: Ryzen 3900X, Asus ROG Crosshair VIII Hero, 16GB RAM, Sabrent 1TB Rocket NVMe PCIe 4.0, NVidia 1070 GPU
Software: JRiver MC 26.0.22, AnyDVD HD 8.4.4.0
Audio Processor: Lynx AES16e (FW: 14.1) w/ Aurora 16-VT (FW: 31)
Amp: Emotiva MPS-2
Speakers: Ascend Acoustics Sierra Towers w/RAAL & Horizon w/RAAL and Sierra-2's as surrounds
Sub: Dual Rythmik Audio FV15HP
TV Tuner: HD HomeRun Prime

fitbrit

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 4887
Re: MadVR 0.86.0 adds Frame interpolation/blending.
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2013, 11:55:00 pm »

I'm looking forward to MC incorporating this into HQ.
Logged

jmone

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 14465
  • I won! I won!
Re: MadVR 0.86.0 adds Frame interpolation/blending.
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2013, 12:26:48 am »

If you want to play just download and extract the contents of http://madshi.net/madVR.zip to C:\Users\[USERNAME]\AppData\Roaming\J River\Media Center 18\Plugins\madvr
Logged
JRiver CEO Elect

fitbrit

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 4887
Re: MadVR 0.86.0 adds Frame interpolation/blending.
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2013, 02:00:07 am »

If you want to play just download and extract the contents of http://madshi.net/madVR.zip to C:\Users\[USERNAME]\AppData\Roaming\J River\Media Center 18\Plugins\madvr

RO has made me soft. My days of playing with DirectShow filters are gone. :)
Logged

InflatableMouse

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 3978
Re: MadVR 0.86.0 adds Frame interpolation/blending.
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2013, 05:36:24 am »

this will require a Monitor to support 24/50/60hz (or multiples of these).  This is all good on my HTPC/AVR/TV setup, but my PC Monitor (which I do some limited media watching on), only supports 50/60hz (eg no 24hz).

Are you sure it doesn't support it, because some monitors do support it but only report 50/60hz as supported.

In other words, if you configure a custom resolution with 24hz, does it really not work?

The problem I had was that I could configure my monitor with a 24hz mode, it worked but MC refused to show it for selection :-\. I had to manually switch to that mode and leave MC to use desktop defaults.
Logged

jmone

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 14465
  • I won! I won!
Re: MadVR 0.86.0 adds Frame interpolation/blending.
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2013, 05:38:45 am »

Yup - I forced 24hz and just got two blank screen (dual monitor setup).  Does not matter as this is the "Main" PC anyway NOT the HTPC and is what madshi's new frame blending is aimed at.
Logged
JRiver CEO Elect

jmone

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 14465
  • I won! I won!
Re: MadVR 0.86.0 adds Frame interpolation/blending.
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2013, 05:39:28 am »

RO has made me soft. My days of playing with DirectShow filters are gone. :)

True - all the "fun" has gone out of this hobby!
Logged
JRiver CEO Elect

audunth

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 634
Re: MadVR 0.86.0 adds Frame interpolation/blending.
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2013, 06:55:01 am »

Is this feature only to adjust for matching the display's refresh rate, or is it also for frame doubling to enhance for example sports broadcasts on displays which don't have the feature?
Logged
Cheers,
Audun

My system:
ASUS  P8Z68 V-PRO/GEN3, 8GB RAM, Core i5-2500K
EVGA Nvidia GTX 970 SSC, 4GB RAM
Antec P180 case w/Seasonic X460 fanless PSU, water cooled by Zalman Reserator 1+ w/extra DDC pump
Windows 7 Ultimate 64 bit
Sony VPL-HW30ES 3D projector
Yamaha RX-V3900 receiver and custom built 2Ch power amp for front/stereo speakers
Klipsch Reference/SVS 7.1 speaker system
Always running the latest available version of MC

6233638

  • Regular Member
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 5353
Re: MadVR 0.86.0 adds Frame interpolation/blending.
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2013, 09:57:18 am »

Is this feature only to adjust for matching the display's refresh rate, or is it also for frame doubling to enhance for example sports broadcasts on displays which don't have the feature?
This is frame blending, not frame interpolation. It won't give the appearance of a higher framerate video - you will need to use SVP for that.
Logged

jmone

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 14465
  • I won! I won!
Re: MadVR 0.86.0 adds Frame interpolation/blending.
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2013, 03:00:45 pm »

This is frame blending, not frame interpolation. It won't give the appearance of a higher framerate video - you will need to use SVP for that.

Though if you go interpolation you may get strange artifacts - there is always a downside!  + I had a read of SVP and it seems to need FFDSHOW (and avsynth)....
Logged
JRiver CEO Elect

6233638

  • Regular Member
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 5353
Re: MadVR 0.86.0 adds Frame interpolation/blending.
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2013, 04:12:02 pm »

Though if you go interpolation you may get strange artifacts - there is always a downside!  + I had a read of SVP and it seems to need FFDSHOW (and avsynth)....
I can't speak for the quality of SVP, as my display offers its own interpolation options (Sony MotionFlow) which manage to avoid the sped-up "soap opera" look that most interpolation seems to suffer from.

I'm not sure if you would have any trouble getting SVP working with JRiver - I don't see why not, if you use the custom options rather than the ROHQ preset.
Logged

jmone

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 14465
  • I won! I won!
Re: MadVR 0.86.0 adds Frame [interpolation]/blending.
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2013, 04:22:31 pm »

I'm happy with how my current setup works in ROHQ (Jinc3+AR), Auto Frame Rate switching, and Videoclock on the decoded audio.  (FYI - from my test clips I can see that my Pio also does some frame interperlation on 24hz material).
Logged
JRiver CEO Elect

6233638

  • Regular Member
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 5353
Re: MadVR 0.86.0 adds Frame [interpolation]/blending.
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2013, 06:10:47 pm »

I'm happy with how my current setup works in ROHQ (Jinc3+AR), Auto Frame Rate switching, and Videoclock on the decoded audio.  (FYI - from my test clips I can see that my Pio also does some frame interperlation on 24hz material).
Set up correctly, a Pioneer Plasma (I assume Kuro?) should not be doing any interpolation with a 24Hz input.

If you are sending it a 24Hz signal, make sure that you have PureCinema set to "Advance" which should set the refresh rate to 72Hz for proper 24p playback.
If your set has "Drive Mode" options, they should be set to 2 in most cases, to display 50Hz content at 100Hz rather than 75Hz (DM1) or 60Hz (DM3)
Logged

jmone

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 14465
  • I won! I won!
Re: MadVR 0.86.0 adds Frame [interpolation]/blending.
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2013, 08:56:55 pm »

Yeah it is a Kuro and I too have Drive Mode set to 2 so my 50hz stuff looks fine.  With the Pure Cinema settings (and I just checked again with my test pattern) I have found the settings do make a difference but to my eyes they each create a different number of interpolated frames per second to match the different refresh rates used by the Pure Cinema Settings.
- Advanced = 3 visible frames being shown at once.  No judder and looks pretty good and this was my preferred setting for some time (I'm guessing the panel is running at 72hz and it is interpolating the 2 additional frames)
- Off = 5 visible frames being shown at once.  No judder however and this is my fav mode on this TV for 24hz material (I'm guessing the panel is running at around 120hz and interpolating the 4 additional frames).  Note:  I would be happy to concede that it is running around 100hz and doing some 4:4 / 4:5 pattern and that I'm just not sensitive to the judder at this higher refresh rate.
- Std or Smooth = Looks like a 3:2 pull down pattern, you sometimes see two, sometimes 3 frames and is has the classic judder.  Not nice (I'm guessing the panel is running at 60hz)

FYI - for my testing I created a series of test patterns years ago - http://www.avsforum.com/t/1276064/1920x1080-24-25-30fps-test-patterns-detect-pulldown-issues

Quote
These Frame Rate Test files are a high bit rate 1920 x 1080 MPEG2 (with a blank AC3 sound track so it works with Videoclock) in a M2T container taking up about 1GB each (but all three are in the 45MB Zip File) and include files encoded to refresh rates used in:
 * Blu-ray (24 unique frames encoded at 23.976fps)
 * PAL (25fps)
 * NTSC (30 unique frames encoded at 29.97fps)

How To Use: Each file has a set of unique images that repeat every second for five minutes so you have plenty of time to observer how smooth the video is rendered. Change your monitor refresh rate to match that of the file you are going to play, then play it and keep your Eye on how smoothly the Red Dot moves across the screen. It should be nice and smooth but you may see issues such as pauses (repeating frames) or jumping forward a bit (dropping frames).

 For "fun" or for those that don't think telecline judder as used by NTSC transfers looks bad, just play the 23.976 file back on your monitor/TV set at 60hz!

EDIT: I've noticed that these test files also highlight more than just the fluidity of video playback:
Pulldown / Frame Interpolation: One thing I've noticed that is interesting with the test files, it shows you what pull down and frame interpolation is being applied by the PC and/or TV. Each of the test files is only encoded with only 1 red square per frame. So when playing say the NTSC test file (29.97) you see two red squares when played at 60hz...in this case (I guess) the video renderer or TV displays each frame twice but overlaps them with the following frame. Now the interesting thing is when I play the Blu-ray test file (23.976) at 24hz I see 3 red boxs on my setup. As this is not being done in the PC, it looks like it must be the TV doing a 3:3 frame interpolation (though the documentation on the PIO LX608 is pretty vague on it's settings and options here).
Pixel Refresh: I also notice a very faint red trail (an erratic scattering of pixels) trailing the red box for a couple of mm at most

Test Pattern Files are now here --> (45MB in one Zip) - https://dl.dropbox.com/u/59011278/FrameRateTestFiles.zip

Logged
JRiver CEO Elect

6233638

  • Regular Member
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 5353
Re: MadVR 0.86.0 adds Frame [interpolation]/blending.
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2013, 09:31:32 pm »

- Advanced = 3 visible frames being shown at once.  No judder and looks pretty good and this was my preferred setting for some time (I'm guessing the panel is running at 72hz and it is interpolating the 2 additional frames)
This is just judder from watching an impulse-type display show 24fps at 72Hz, not interpolation. (technically Plasma are not impulse displays, but can act like them in this sort of test)

You shouldn't see it on sample & hold-type displays (i.e. older LCDs) but will see it on anything that flashes the same image multiple times per frame. 48Hz on a CRT? Double images. 96Hz? Quadruple images. And so on.

24fps sucks.

It's part of the reason I choose to enable interpolation on my TV, as it helps reduce that kind of judder.

It's a common complaint from people playing console games too, especially if they switch from an older LCD to a Plasma. They are typically only 30fps now, so you suffer from double-images on 60Hz displays.
It's even easier to show off on a PC where you can run the game at 60fps, and then cap the framerate to 30/20/15/10 if you want.

- Off = 5 visible frames being shown at once.  No judder however and this is my fav mode on this TV for 24hz material (I'm guessing the panel is running at around 120hz and interpolating the 4 additional frames).  Note:  I would be happy to concede that it is running around 100hz and doing some 4:4 / 4:5 pattern and that I'm just not sensitive to the judder at this higher refresh rate.
It's almost certainly not running at 120Hz - image quality is bad enough once you get to 75/100Hz, and I don't recall it getting worse when you used 24Hz without PureCinema Advance.

I was under the impression the panel refreshed at 60Hz without it enabled, but it's been years since I looked at one, so I could be mistaken.
Logged

jmone

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 14465
  • I won! I won!
Re: MadVR 0.86.0 adds Frame [interpolation]/blending.
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2013, 10:12:41 pm »

The thing is when viewing the test pattern at normal speed, the red squares overlap each other (eg by 3 or 5) ... and in the test pattern they never overlap, just touch in the corner.  So to my eyes the Kuro is not just doing a 3:3 or 5:5 frame repeat as they red squares would not overlap each other.  Other indications of interpolation is you see artifacts like purple fringing (or is it ringing) on the black/white boarder.  Out of interest what do you see when you play the test clip on your rig?
Logged
JRiver CEO Elect

jmone

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 14465
  • I won! I won!
Re: MadVR 0.86.0 adds Frame [interpolation]/blending.
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2013, 10:22:11 pm »

I tried taking a photo but that just does not work so I mocked up what I see in paint (sort off).  It looks like this in Pure Cinema and the group of three red squares then travels diagonally.  With it OFF it is five squares, if it is the other two settings it seems to alternate between two and three.  As mentioned, in the test file each individual frames moves the red square completely so they touch but don't overlap.
Logged
JRiver CEO Elect

jmone

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 14465
  • I won! I won!
Re: MadVR 0.86.0 adds Frame [interpolation]/blending.
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2013, 10:30:13 pm »

I should say I only see this on the Kuro - if I run the same test patterns on my PC's LCD screen there are no separate images as the red box moves (but other issues like blur and as you mention very evident strobing on the black white boarder area).

...and yes 24fps suck.... so does interlacing...  I REALLY like the output from my 1080/50p camcorder as it eliminates both these compromises.
Logged
JRiver CEO Elect

6233638

  • Regular Member
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 5353
Re: MadVR 0.86.0 adds Frame [interpolation]/blending.
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2013, 09:19:34 am »

Other indications of interpolation is you see artifacts like purple fringing (or is it ringing) on the black/white boarder.
You are seeing "phosphor trails" or "phosphor lag" which is caused by the different colour phosphors in the display having different response times. It's nothing to do with interpolation, and all Plasmas suffer from it.



You can see that each phosphor has different rise & decay characteristics, and that green is considerably brighter than the red & blue phosphors.

The end result is something like this:


That's really supposed to be a white bar.


You can also see the effects of the slowly decaying green phosphor on that CRT. But CRTs don't exhibit the colour separation that Plasmas do, they just have dark green trails and a slight red edge behind bright objects moving over a dark background. The current frame is displayed perfectly, you don't have a blue leading edge as you do with Plasma.


Even Panasonic's "new" quick response phosphors for their 3D displays still have the same problem:



Out of interest what do you see when you play the test clip on your rig?
When my display has backlight scanning and interpolation enabled, it's perfectly clear, but it looks as though the corner of the white rectangle has been cut off diagonally.
Without interpolation, it's displayed perfectly, but is moving too fast to be sharp without backlight scanning due to image persistence. I can photograph it, and it looks perfect though.
Unfortunately I can't enable backlight scanning without interpolation, which would likely display the patterns perfectly, but introduce judder because the patterns have a lower framerate than the refresh rate.

Unfortunately there's not really anything that can be done about it. Motion handling on all flat panels still has a lot of problems. I don't see anything happening to change Plasmas (which probably won't be around in five years) and response times of LCD televisions aren't fast enough yet to sync backlight scanning to pixel response and eliminate motion blur. The only thing fast enough for that right now are the crappy TN LCD panels used in PC monitors. There are a couple of LightBoost monitors available now that have a perfectly synced backlight and 1ms response for basically perfect motion handling, but they're tiny, flicker a lot, and have terrible colour reproduction & viewing angles because they are TN panels. And you need to be sending them 120fps, because otherwise you get really bad judder. But if you're a competitive gamer, there's nothing better.

OLED isn't going to fix things, because while they solve the pixel response problem completely (less than 1ms) they have the image persistence problems of LCD. (sample & hold)
To solve that you need to strobe the panel using black frame insertion, but OLED isn't anywhere near bright enough to do that yet, and it adds flicker. Unfortunately our eyes either need really high framerates, or a strobed image to perceive things as being sharp. (and strobed always works better)


Sony offer an "Impulse" backlight scanning option on their newer LCDs, and as far as I am aware, they are the only ones offering something like it on a television. It adds a lot of flicker, but significantly reduces image persistence similar to those new LightBoost monitors, though I don't think their panel response is quick enough to be perfectly synced and use short 1ms pulses. And it still has the same problem of judder with anything less than 60fps content.
Logged

jmone

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 14465
  • I won! I won!
Re: MadVR 0.86.0 adds Frame [interpolation]/blending.
« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2013, 02:20:34 pm »

Yeah - the fringing could be phosphor decay (as I also see some red trail behind the moving squares).  Given the overlapping of the red squares is not in the source material I'm still with the Kuro doing interpolation.  Ive been trying to think of other scenarios to explain where these intermediate frames come from but.....

I'd like to test using madshi patterns but don't know how to get them to work with MC. http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=78486.0

Thanks for the info by the way!
Logged
JRiver CEO Elect

audioriver

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 514
Re: MadVR 0.86.0 adds Frame [interpolation]/blending.
« Reply #23 on: March 10, 2013, 09:51:43 am »

I'm waiting for this exciting feature to show up in MC! It works very well when watching PAL TV on a 60Hz monitor, for example. Should the VideoClock be disabled when Smooth Motion is on?
Logged
Windows 10 Pro x64

audioriver

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 514
Re: MadVR 0.86.0 adds Frame [interpolation]/blending.
« Reply #24 on: April 06, 2013, 11:27:56 am »

Plenty of MC updates but still no sign of this, any info on if and when it'll be added to MC as part of ROHQ?
Logged
Windows 10 Pro x64

6233638

  • Regular Member
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 5353
Re: MadVR 0.86.0 adds Frame [interpolation]/blending.
« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2013, 12:31:03 pm »

You could always update madVR manually by extracting the latest version to %appdata%\J River\Media Center 18\Plugins\madvr

It's my understanding that you should leave VideoClock enabled, and it's best to leave Smooth Motion set to only if there would be motion judder without it... (I don't use Smooth Motion, as my display supports 24/50/60Hz)
Logged

audioriver

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 514
Re: MadVR 0.86.0 adds Frame [interpolation]/blending.
« Reply #26 on: April 08, 2013, 03:42:08 pm »

You could always update madVR manually by extracting the latest version to %appdata%\J River\Media Center 18\Plugins\madvr

Tried it, but after a couple of minutes, the video stutters like mad. This only happens in madVR windowed mode, not exclusive - so I hoped for "official" smooth motion support.
Logged
Windows 10 Pro x64

audioriver

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 514
Re: MadVR 0.86.0 adds Frame [interpolation]/blending.
« Reply #27 on: April 08, 2013, 03:56:34 pm »

It seems the problem is triggered by interacting with MC for example, right-clicking in the video window, changing options in the main MC window etc. When the video stutters, exiting and re-entering full-screen mode (not exclusive) fixes it, temporarily.
Logged
Windows 10 Pro x64
Pages: [1]   Go Up