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[mwillems]

Small bug: When I mute the audio while music is playing (whether by pressing the mute button on the remote or by clicking on the volume button in standard view) I get about a half or quarter second of *very* loud audio before it mutes (easily 10dB louder than my maximum volume setting).  Otherwise volume control works as expected, there's just a huge transient when it goes from 1% to 0.

I'm using version .154, and currently am using internal volume and volume leveling (with replaygain) because my DAC is hooked directly to my power amps, and the volume spike is terrifyingly loud, especially if I click the mute button by accident.  I'm also using Convolution if that's relevant.  I haven't noticed this in prior builds, but I don't use the mute button very often (it's probably been several months since I used it).

I tried an experiment where I set my volume to the maximum level set in my audio settings (77%) which is about -11.5 dBFS, and the volume spike on mute was much louder than my maximum volume setting (it basically sounds like I'm getting 0dBFS signal out for a quarter second).  

Any insight on this?

[JimH]

May be a driver problem.  Try a different output mode or device.

[mwillems]

May be a driver problem.  Try a different output mode or device.

I was using ASIO, I just tried WASAPI event style and Kernel streaming.  Both exhibited the same behavior. 

I don't have another device that I can try right now, but I may be able to grab my work DAC and test with it.  I'm using an Asus Essence ST.

The little audio visualizer on the top bar shows an enormous volume spike when I press mute so the software is clearly putting out a much louder signal, albeit briefly.  Does it undo internal volume as it's muting?

[mwillems]

So I just tried altering a bunch of settings, and with convolution disabled the visualizer still spiked dramatically, but there was no audible output.  So it's apparently related to how mute interacts with my convolution filters.  

This is a pretty big problem for me (don't want to blow my drivers) so any insight into why this might be happening would be appreciated (and thanks Jim for responding so quickly)

Anyone running convolution able to reproduce this?  

EDIT: I created a log of the issue, not sure if it will be helpful, but I sent it to the "logs" address @jriver.

[natehansen66]

Just loaded up .154 and mute is fine audibly in the software and with the remote.......no spikes. I use convolution. The visualizer at the top does spike to what I suppose would be full scale, though I have attenuators at my amp inputs so my drive units would be ok should anything weird happen.......and I don't have a heart condition or anything 

Just curious, what sort of convolution are you doing?

[mwillems]

Just loaded up .154 and mute is fine audibly in the software and with the remote.......no spikes. I use convolution. The visualizer at the top does spike to what I suppose would be full scale, though I have attenuators at my amp inputs so my drive units would be ok should anything weird happen.......and I don't have a heart condition or anything  

Just curious, what sort of convolution are you doing?

My system is bi-amped (we've talked before, but I wanted to clarify for anyone else reading this).  I'm doing my crossover and some mild EQ in convolution, nothing crazy.  I could achieve similar results using the DSP in PEQ but it wouldn't be as well matched to my room and/or phase linear.  I tried setting up my crossover and EQ in PEQ and ran them in addition to convolution and it still produces a volume spike, but not as loud.  When I turn off convolution entirely (relying entirely on PEQ), I see the visualizer spike, but have no audible spike.  

I think what is happening is that the convolution filter is being stopped before the volume is muted, which means it's briefly sending a full spectrum signal to all my drivers, which is bad news bears :-(

Thanks a bunch for trying to replicate it though, I appreciate the help.

[natehansen66]

I think what is happening is that the convolution filter is being stopped before the volume is muted, which means it's briefly sending a full spectrum signal to all my drivers, which is bad news bears :-(

I only use convolution for a bit of DRC as well as phase linearization. I do the crossovers entirely in the PEQ. Your thinking about the convolution being shutdown before MC mutes makes sense, so I figured I'd try it. I shut off my PEQ crossovers, and redid them all in rePhase with the appropriate config file. I confirmed the crossover config worked in convolution. I get the same result when I hit mute though.......music mutes and there's a huge spike in the visualizer but I'm not getting any audible spikes.

[mwillems]

I only use convolution for a bit of DRC as well as phase linearization. I do the crossovers entirely in the PEQ. Your thinking about the convolution being shutdown before MC mutes makes sense, so I figured I'd try it. I shut off my PEQ crossovers, and redid them all in rePhase with the appropriate config file. I confirmed the crossover config worked in convolution. I get the same result when I hit mute though.......music mutes and there's a huge spike in the visualizer but I'm not getting any audible spikes.

Thanks for going to all that effort (sincerely).  It sounds like there must be something goofy about my setup then, but I have no idea how to sort that out (what kind of DAC are you using?).  I'd think JRiver wouldn't allow the signal to get above the maximum volume setting regardless, especially when volume protection is enabled (to be clear, my volume transients aren't noise or something, they're just very loud music).  It's kind of bizarre, because it happens when mute is pressed, but it also happens when the volume is turned all the way down (i.e. the volume control takes the last step from 1% to 0%), which is strange (unless going to 0 volume is the same as mute regardless of how you get there).

I guess I'm back to PEQ crossovers for a while until I can figure it out because this is a safety issue :-(

Can the devs confirm or explain why there's a sudden spike in the visualizer when the mute button is pressed?  Anyone have any thoughts about why it might be inaudible in some setups but blowing through in my setup?

[InflatableMouse]

I have no idea obviously but I wonder if its similar to whats happening when adjusting the (regular) equalizer. When adjusting a few sliders in quick succession in small steps maybe 0.5dB or 1dB, sometimes sound spikes as well for a fraction of a second.

[mwillems]

I have no idea obviously but I wonder if its similar to whats happening when adjusting the (regular) equalizer. When adjusting a few sliders in quick succession in small steps maybe 0.5dB or 1dB, sometimes sound spikes as well for a fraction of a second.

I've experienced what you're describing, and I wondered about that myself. I've definitely had some peculiar volume transients from rapidly making fine DSP adjustment, but I've never had them blow past the volume maximum from that.  The DSP updates it's effects in real time (and thank the heavens for that, I wouldn't want it any other way), so I always chalked those transients up to me typing too slowly (i.e. I deleted the existing value, and it updated the feed before I finished entering the new number).

It's odd because I can be playing music at the volume cap, hit mute and hear a 10 or 20 dB spike while the little visualizer fills up completely.  Simultaneously, I can turn the volume down to 1% where it is inaudibly quiet, but if I turn it down one more percent I get the exact same incredibly loud signal and visualizer behavior.  

It seems like the visualizer spike has been confirmed regardless, so for some reason JRiver is running a super hot signal somewhere in it's audio chain momentarily before the mute action is completed.  It successfully suppresses that spike on NateHansen66's system (and on mine for that matter when convolution isn't running) but it's blowing through on mine when convolution is on for some reason.  

Honestly, even if it is just a quirk of my setup (i.e. if the fault is on my end and not in the software) the fact that this kind of error is happening at all is causing me to seriously reevaluate my decision not to use a hardware pre-amp, especially as I'm currently getting ready to transition to some higher power amps.  Up to this point JRiver's volume handling with my setup had been 100% rock solid, so I had no qualms about a direct connection, but this is making me anxious.

[Matt]

I see a blip on the spectrums when muting with 'Internal Volume', but nothing in DSP Studio > Analyzer.  I don't hear a blip.

I think you see the blip because visualizations undo the volume, but there's actually a little lag so that for a split second the volume it's using to undo doesn't exactly match the data.  Convolution makes this latency longer, so the effect looks more pronounced.  However, this is only a display thing and not related to sound output.

I can't reproduce anything audible.  Could you try another device, simplifying DSP, etc.?  Any other clues? 

[mwillems]

I see a blip on the spectrums when muting with 'Internal Volume', but nothing in DSP Studio > Analyzer.  I don't hear a blip.

I think you see the blip because visualizations undo the volume, but there's actually a little lag so that for a split second the volume it's using to undo doesn't exactly match the data.  Convolution makes this latency longer, so the effect looks more pronounced.  However, this is only a display thing and not related to sound output.

I can't reproduce anything audible.  Could you try another device, simplifying DSP, etc.?  Any other clues? 

I'm using a very, very long convolution filter (more than 250 milliseconds, 20,000 taps), could that be it?  I set it arbitrarily long to get maximum accuracy and because I wasn't concerned about latency in stereo audio. 

I can't test with a shorter filter right now because I'm at work, but If you're game, would you mind trying to reproduce it with a very long convolution filter and see if that's the issue?  Otherwise, I'll try with a different device and with a shorter filter when I get home and report back.

[Matt]

Double-check that you didn't pick the option 'Process independently of internal volume' for any DSP plug-ins other than visualizations.  You pick this at the top right of each DSP with the 'Options' button.

It's possible turning that on for a DSP that changes the audio data could cause trouble.

[mwillems]

Double-check that you didn't pick the option 'Process independently of internal volume' for any DSP plug-ins other than visualizations.  You pick this at the top right of each DSP with the 'Options' button.

It's possible turning that on for a DSP that changes the audio data could cause trouble.

I do have it processing independently of internal volume (I hadn't thought to try disabling that).  I'll try disabling it when I get home and see if that fixes it.

[Matt]

I do have it processing independently of internal volume (I hadn't thought to try disabling that).  I'll try disabling it when I get home and see if that fixes it.

It will fix it.

You should not use the option 'Process independently of internal volume' for anything other than a visualization.

Maybe we should lock out that option for everything except Analyzer and 3rd party plugins.  I'm not sure.

[mwillems]

It will fix it.

You should not use the option 'Process independently of internal volume' for anything other than a visualization.

Maybe we should lock out that option for everything except Analyzer and 3rd party plugins.  I'm not sure.

Yeah, I apologize, I didn't think to check that. 

My convolution EQ only decreases volume (no boost), so I didn't think I needed to disable "process independently" for clipping reasons, but apart from clipping I didn't realize there could be downstream consequences to processing independently from internal volume.  I enabled it a while ago, and I'm not sure exactly why I did, but I'd guess I had enabled it figuring it was probably better to do DSP on a full scale signal, but my reasoning doesn't really make any sense with a 64-bit internal audio path.  That was obviously fuzzy thinking on my part.

Thanks very much for looking into this, and I'll come back and confirm that this resolved it once I've made the switch tonight.

[mwillems]

It will fix it.

You should not use the option 'Process independently of internal volume' for anything other than a visualization.

Maybe we should lock out that option for everything except Analyzer and 3rd party plugins.  I'm not sure.

Just flipped the toggle and the problem is completely resolved.  Thanks (as usual) for the quick and thorough support!