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Author Topic: Projector Recommendation?  (Read 12609 times)

glynor

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Projector Recommendation?
« on: November 15, 2013, 10:30:42 am »

My CIO wants to buy a projector for his house, and I'm hoping for a good recommendation.  He's got a non-ideal setup, of course...

Here's the requirements...

1. Around or less than $3k
2. 1080p (he doesn't care about 4k, I asked)
3. Brightness.  His room is NOT darkened, so the usual aca forum HT projector recommends probably won't work.

Number 3 is of course the rub.  Any real world suggestions?
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Sparks67

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Re: Projector Recommendation?
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2013, 03:14:22 pm »

My CIO wants to buy a projector for his house, and I'm hoping for a good recommendation.  He's got a non-ideal setup, of course...

Here's the requirements...

1. Around or less than $3k
2. 1080p (he doesn't care about 4k, I asked)
3. Brightness.  His room is NOT darkened, so the usual aca forum HT projector recommends probably won't work.

Number 3 is of course the rub.  Any real world suggestions?

The best way is to visit a home theater store and test out the projectors. 
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Matt

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Re: Projector Recommendation?
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2013, 10:36:27 pm »

I'm slow on this one, but projectorcentral.com and projectorreviews.com are both good resources.

If you don't need lens shift (ie. you can mount it perfectly), I'd take a look at an Epson 2030.  You can spend a lot more but it's diminishing returns with regards to picture quality.  Especially when you're not light controlled, meaning UB / a fancy iris isn't as important.

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Matt Ashland, JRiver Media Center

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Re: Projector Recommendation?
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2013, 04:09:47 am »

Is he aware that watching a projector in anything other than a dark room is going to give you a very washed-out image?
You will probably have to spend most of that budget on a Black Diamond projection screen (or similar) just to get a reasonable image with video.
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JimH

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Re: Projector Recommendation?
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2013, 06:43:25 am »

Uh oh.
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6233638

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Re: Projector Recommendation?
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2013, 06:58:27 am »

The issue is not brightness - it's contrast. Well, a mixture of both. Obviously you need a bright enough image that it's clearly visible in the room.
 
But even if a projector is bright enough in a well lit room, the black level can only be as dark as the screen material itself.
 
Screens like the Black Diamond have a dark surface with a low gain, and a narrow viewing angle - they reject as much ambient light as possible. You then need to pair them with a very bright projector to overcome the ambient light, and the fact that you're projecting onto a dark surface with a low gain.
 
And you will most likely need a custom calibration for the projector to overcome the limited contrast and the fact that you're projecting onto a dark surface.
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Matt

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Re: Projector Recommendation?
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2013, 07:53:24 am »

A bright projector can handle a reasonable amount of ambient light and still look good, but the best results are in a dark room.

And once you see how much better the picture looks if you block off a window during the day (even if it looked pretty good before), it's hard not to want to do that always.  

In that case, window blinds are a better solution than fancy screens.

Luckily we only get like 2 hours of daylight in Minnesota, so this isn't a problem for us.

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Matt Ashland, JRiver Media Center

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Re: Projector Recommendation?
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2013, 10:05:56 am »

A bright projector can handle a reasonable amount of ambient light and still look good, but the best results are in a dark room.
I'm not sure that I agree - here's a comparison between projecting onto a flat white wall (not too dissimilar from a plain white screen) and one of Sony's DynaClear screens, which is similar to the Black Diamond screens:
 

 
While neither projector is bright enough for this room, you can see that the main issue was black level rather than brightness.
While a screen like that dramatically improves the black level when there is ambient light, the image still looks "flat" and you need a custom calibration to fix the color and gamma problems it introduces.
 
Here's an example of what seems to be a properly calibrated image on a Black Diamond screen, with a bright enough projector for the room:

 
It's good, but still very flat and low contrast due to the ambient light. While you get a nice big image, I'd still rather have an LCD TV for viewing when there's going to be any ambient light.
As soon as there's ambient light in the room, your screen determines the contrast of the image, not the projector.
 
And once you see how much better the picture looks if you block off a window during the day (even if it looked pretty good before), it's hard not to want to do that always.  

In that case, window blinds are a better solution than fancy screens.
Absolutely. Lowering the ambient light in the room, or going one step further and properly treating the room, pays off far more than anything you will spend on a fancy screen or a high end projector.
If you don't have a treated room, I'd go as far as saying that there's very little point in buying a high-end projector. That high contrast ratio you're paying for is immediately lost when you put it in an untreated room.
 
With the proper materials, you can even do things which no-one that knows anything about projectors would recommend.
I spent a lot of time evaluating various fabrics before finding the darkest and least reflective velvet that I could, and then I covered the walls and ceiling with it.
 
Because I wanted the largest image possible... I put the screen right up against the walls.

 
You normally want to avoid this at all costs, because reflections from the side walls hit your screen and kill your contrast.
With the room only partially treated, here's an image that shows how a reflection off the ceiling lights up the letterboxing area on the screen. (and there's a shadow on the screen from my calibration gear)
 


With the side walls and the ceiling partially treated, you couldn't even see where the corner of the room was, the screen appeared to be floating in space.
With any ambient light in the room though, the screen completely washes out. (matte white Carada screen) This could have looked better if I had changed the camera exposure, but I wanted as fair a comparison as possible.


If you look at the edges, you can see how they are still relatively high contrast because there are no reflections off the material surrounding the screen.
 
Once the room was fully treated though, the images were stunning. Other than correcting for camera distortion, these are unedited.

 
I had people come round who had high-end JVC projectors - I believe at the time they were approaching 100,000:1 contrast - and they were blown away by the image my low-end 4,000:1 Sony SXRD was putting out. (20,000:1 with iris)
Because they were using them in untreated rooms on matte white screens - but in the dark at least - the reflections in the room just annihilated the contrast performance of their projector. I think my entire setup cost less than one of the low-end JVCs at the time.
When the image is this high contrast, and it appears to be floating in space because you can't see the edges of the room, it's really something else - it no longer looks like a projected image.
 
 
But as good as it was, I don't know that I would do it again. To fully treat the room like that, you're basically giving up a room in your house and dedicating it to the projector. It doesn't matter how much lighting you have, the room is pitch black.
I think I would probably just buy one of the Black Diamond screens (preferably motorized) keep it away from the side walls, and watch in the dark without treating the room.
Even though they are primarily for use in bright rooms, the ambient light rejection of those screens are still beneficial in a dark room if it's untreated.
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glynor

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Re: Projector Recommendation?
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2013, 12:31:24 pm »

here's a comparison between projecting onto a flat white wall (not too dissimilar from a plain white screen)

I have substantial experience with this, and I would say there is a massive difference between projecting on a flat white wall and projecting on a typical (cheap) Dalite projector screen.  That's not a fair comparison.  I did recommend he spring for a decent screen, and said that best results would come from a darkened room (to which he agreed, but said he wasn't able to accomplish that as he has a massive wall of windows, and that the projector would be primarily for watching things in the evening anyway).

Quality was NOT his primary concern.  The source he'd be playing from was going to be crappy anyway.  His main goal was to set up a place to watch the World Cup games, which he was going to stream here via VPN from his house in Germany (because they don't air them all here).  So, we're looking at craptastic "streamed via the Internet" quality anyway.

In any case, thanks for the advice.  I actually made my recommendations about three weeks ago though, so...  ::)

Luckily we only get like 2 hours of daylight in Minnesota, so this isn't a problem for us.

Yep.  Same here.  And, we're so far east in the stupid time zone that it is pitch-black by 4:15 or so right now.

Why, oh why, won't the idiots in my state let us move to the Atlantic time zone where we belong.
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glynor

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Re: Projector Recommendation?
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2013, 12:41:18 pm »

If you don't have a treated room, I'd go as far as saying that there's very little point in buying a high-end projector. That high contrast ratio you're paying for is immediately lost when you put it in an untreated room.

Totally agree, by the way, but he wasn't looking to buy a high-end projector...

1. Around or less than $3k

Now, opinions on "high end" projectors can vary.  I'd call the $25k Christie I have here at work high-end, but from their perspective it is one of their lowest-end models. And, for example, I don't know that I'd call any of the current JVC projectors truly high-end, but again, that's a matter of perspective.  In any case, though, I don't think most people would really call a $3k projector "high end".  Not in my field anyway.

In any case, thanks for the conversation anyway!
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6233638

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Re: Projector Recommendation?
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2013, 01:21:50 pm »

I have substantial experience with this, and I would say there is a massive difference between projecting on a flat white wall and projecting on a typical (cheap) Dalite projector screen.  That's not a fair comparison.
Well it depends on the wall and the screen I suppose. I had no problems projecting onto a flat white wall before I bought a nice screen - you end up with a completely flat uniform surface that is spectrally neutral (if you buy a good screen) but I wouldn't say it was a major difference as far as gain is concerned. Dalite seem to focus on cheaper high gain screens than neutral ones though - I was not particularly fond of the samples they sent out, they had too much of an obvious texture and speckle to me.

I did recommend he spring for a decent screen, and said that best results would come from a darkened room (to which he agreed, but said he wasn't able to accomplish that as he has a massive wall of windows, and that the projector would be primarily for watching things in the evening anyway).

Quality was NOT his primary concern.  The source he'd be playing from was going to be crappy anyway.  His main goal was to set up a place to watch the World Cup games, which he was going to stream here via VPN from his house in Germany (because they don't air them all here).  So, we're looking at craptastic "streamed via the Internet" quality anyway.
Fair enough. Especially when quality is not his concern, I would have been spending less on the projector and more on a screen that would produce a good image from it. Something like a Da-Lite High Power might have been a good choice because they have a retroreflective surface and at least do a somewhat good job of rejecting ambient light compared to most other white screens, if you're not buying an expensive high contrast one.

In any case, thanks for the advice.  I actually made my recommendations about three weeks ago though, so...  ::)
You know, I only noticed that the topic had been replied to, not that it was a few weeks old.  :-[

Now, opinions on "high end" projectors can vary.  I'd call the $25k Christie I have here at work high-end, but from their perspective it is one of their lowest-end models. And, for example, I don't know that I'd call any of the current JVC projectors truly high-end, but again, that's a matter of perspective.  In any case, though, I don't think most people would really call a $3k projector "high end".  Not in my field anyway.
That's true - when I say "high end" I'm thinking high-end consumer projectors and the top-range JVCs qualify there I think. (though I'm not sure that I'd have one myself)
 
Theater projectors and the like are obviously a different class of product, focusing on high-end optics and high light output to support giant screens, rather than focusing on things like contrast - theater projectors are only calibrated to 2,000:1 anyway.
 
And of course there are also boutique brands like Sim2 which are very high-end but not really aimed a general consumer market.
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glynor

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Re: Projector Recommendation?
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2013, 01:53:27 pm »

Dalite seem to focus on cheaper high gain screens than neutral ones though - I was not particularly fond of the samples they sent out, they had too much of an obvious texture and speckle to me.

They do have a lot of options if you go to a showroom, but yeah, especially at the low end, I agree.  They're great for business class projectors, though.

You know, I only noticed that the topic had been replied to, not that it was a few weeks old.  :-[

Yeah, no worries.  Like I said, thanks for the discussion.

For the record, here's what I recommended he consider:

1. Panasonic PT-AR100U:
http://www.projectorcentral.com/Panasonic-PT-AR100U.htm
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?ci=1&N=4291296566+4294546233

2. Optoma HD25-LV:
http://www.projectorcentral.com/optoma_hd25-lv_home_theater_projector_review.htm
http://www.amazon.com/Optoma-HD25-LV-3D-Home-Theater-Projector/dp/B00BQWX1P2
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daveman

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Re: Projector Recommendation?
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2014, 01:29:54 pm »

I juts got the Sony VPL-HW40ES

very bright and priced well

dave
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