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[mr_curmudgeon]

Hi folks - as the title clearly states, I'm a JRiver newbie.  Making matters worse; I'm a computer audiophile newbie as well, though I typically understand enough to comprehend the issue.  Before I get too far into JRiver, I was hoping to learn if it can even be used in the way I'm hoping use it.  Hence my question...

Can JRiver be setup as a controller only, not processing or passing the file through it, but just directing playback from a NAS-based server to a renderer or playback other device?

The scenario I envision would be setting up MinimServer on my Synology NAS, and then having something like a Rendu for playback. 

I installed JRiver on a Win8 tablet recently, and would like to set it up to control playback from NAS directly to player, but not have the file streaming through the tablet.  While I've been successful so far in achieving some playback, the file is obviously being passed through the tablet and not directly from NAS to player.  Is there any way to accomplish what I want?

Thanks in advance for any help or ideas!

[csimon]

I would have thought that if you connect to a DLNA server and a DLNA renderer and use MC as a DLNA controller then it would work as you want. Have you got it all set up that way? Presumably, you would see the NAS server in the Playing Now ==> Playing From list, and the renderer in the Playing Now list, and you need to select each one.  Or have you imported all the media from the NAS into MC's library?

How can you tell that, in the way you've got it set up, the file is passing through the tablet?

[AndrewFG]

I would have thought that if you connect to a DLNA server and a DLNA renderer and use MC as a DLNA controller then it would work as you want.

I can confirm that MC can indeed work that way. The UPnP / DLNA world has three types of entity namely, Digital Media Server (aka Library Server) (DMS), Digital Media Renderer (aka Player) (DMR), and Control Point (CP). And it is possible for the DMR, DMS and CP to be on three different devices or software applications. And indeed MC can take the role of any or all of these DMR, DMS, CP entities in any combination.

As you would expect, when you use MC to take all these three roles on itself, it is somehow tighter integrated with itself, and you may find that when DMR, DMS and CP are separated on different devices and applications you might not get the full set of features.

Presumably, you would see the NAS server in the Playing Now ==> Playing From list, and the renderer in the Playing Now list, and you need to select each one.

That is not quite how it works. The renderer (DMR) will indeed automatically appear in the Playing Now List (it comes and goes automatically when the device is turned on or off). And you also will probably see NAS the media server (DMS) as a library under Playing Now / Playing from, BUT you must manually instruct MC to connect to that library before you can use it; you do so by selecting the DMS in question, and on its Library page you press the Load Library button...

[mr_curmudgeon]

I would have thought that if you connect to a DLNA server and a DLNA renderer and use MC as a DLNA controller then it would work as you want. Have you got it all set up that way? Presumably, you would see the NAS server in the Playing Now ==> Playing From list, and the renderer in the Playing Now list, and you need to select each one.  Or have you imported all the media from the NAS into MC's library?

How can you tell that, in the way you've got it set up, the file is passing through the tablet?

Thanks so much for the reply and help.

As you mention; I can see the playback device options (currently using a networked Denon receiver for that purpose) and I can see the NAS.  I may have made a mistake in importing the library, but I thought that was just for cover art and data.  If that step has made MC part of the signal chain, then I guess I'll have to figure out how to reverse that.

As to your question about knowing the tablet is in the chain; it becomes obvious when I try to play back a higher resolution file.  If I play a 176 or 192 FLAC file, it won't play without some stuttering, as the wireless tablet can't pass enough data to keep up.

[csimon]

Yes, this is the concept of libraries and what you've done is imported your media into a MC library and playing from that. You can ignore this library (empty it if you want - I think you can probably right-click on it do this) and instead you need to load the library that is on your NAS, as described above. The NAS is then responsible for cover art, metadata and the browsing structure, so you'll have to make sure the server you have chosen (minim?) is suitable for what you want. Note that Synology NAS's have their own built in server which is pretty decent and is actually a lot more flexible that most, so you might not need to install a third-party one.

[mr_curmudgeon]

Yes, this is the concept of libraries and what you've done is imported your media into a MC library and playing from that. You can ignore this library (empty it if you want - I think you can probably right-click on it do this) and instead you need to load the library that is on your NAS, as described above. The NAS is then responsible for cover art, metadata and the browsing structure, so you'll have to make sure the server you have chosen (minim?) is suitable for what you want. Note that Synology NAS's have their own built in server which is pretty decent and is actually a lot more flexible that most, so you might not need to install a third-party one.

Thanks for confirming what I was thinking.  You're right about the Synology's music server.  I'm working with that right now as I test and work out the bugs in what I want to do.  Eventually I'll install MimimServer because it supports DSD, whereas the Synology music server currently does not.

But just to confirm something, your sentence below leaves me with a question...

You can ignore this library (empty it if you want - I think you can probably right-click on it do this) and instead you need to load the library that is on your NAS, as described above.

When I set up JRiver, I set up the import to see only my music library on the NAS.  It did its import only from that location.  But as mentioned, in that configuration it's streaming through the tablet and not direct between NAS and player.  If I empty the imported library, set up the NAS as the source and the Denon as the player, is that the config I should be aiming for?

I should have some time later to test all this.  I'm digging all the things that JRiver does, but that also means a lot of set-up options to understand.

Thanks!

[csimon]

When I set up JRiver, I set up the import to see only my music library on the NAS.  It did its import only from that location.  But as mentioned, in that configuration it's streaming through the tablet and not direct between NAS and player.  If I empty the imported library, set up the NAS as the source and the Denon as the player, is that the config I should be aiming for?

Yes. You've probably set up the auto-import to look at a shared directory on the NAS, which means you're accessing the NAS as simply a file server, not a DLNA media server. MC will therefore import the phsyical files into its own library. This completely bypasses the DLNA server that is set up on the NAS.

Note that if this is really what you want to do, i.e. use MC as a DLNA controller only and not use its own comprehensive cataloguing, indexing and playback facilities, it's probably an expensive way of doing this and you could use a generic UPnP/DLNA controller app on a tablet instead as ity will probably be cheaper, even free. Unless you're finding that its interface, or one of its remote-control apps available for Android or iOS, is nicer and easier to use better than a standalone app.

[csimon]

PS in order to use DLNA functions in MC you'll need to enable Media Network in Tools/Options and enable Controller, but presumably you've already done this if you are able to send to the renderer.

[AndrewFG]

Note that if this is really what you want to do, i.e. use MC as a DLNA controller only and not use its own comprehensive cataloguing, indexing and playback facilities, it's probably an expensive way of doing this and you could use a generic UPnP/DLNA controller app on a tablet instead as ity will probably be cheaper, even free. Unless you're finding that its interface, or one of its remote-control apps available for Android or iOS, is nicer and easier to use better than a standalone app.

+1

But with MC you have three options in one, a) use MC just as a CP, and/or b) use MC as a CP and DMS, and/or b) use MC as a CP, DMS, and DMR -- so you get a future upgrade path "for free"...

Another advantage of using MC just as a CP is that the PC won't have much work to do, so a low cost PC will be just fine, so you could save money on the hardware...

[csimon]

You could probably even try Synology's native Audio Station app for now. I gather that Synology have now unified their own proprietary media database with the DLNA database so its Audio Station and DLNA Server will use the same "Media Server" library, although I don't think the browsing structure of Audio Station is customisable like it is with the DLNA Server. However I'm sure I remember that Audio Station will allow you to connect to an external DMS and also send to a DMR, so if you like the Audio Station interface you should be able to use it with the Mimim server.

[mr_curmudgeon]

So I've cleared the local library that was previously imported, and tried to set up the options to use MC as a CP.  However, while I see the NAS in the list of library options, I can't seem to set it so that files are available to play.  I have the media network setup, and enabled DLNA.  Perhaps there is some setting I've missed to designate my NAS location as the library to play from?

Oh... and I am using Synology's Audio Station currently as I test this all out.  I might install MimimServer later once I've got all the bugs worked out of the control part of the equation, but only because it supports DSD.

Dumb question here; if using MC as a CP, should I still be able to use theater view to see my library and control playback?  I would assume so, albeit that cover art might load slowly.  But I'm not overly concerned about that.

As to comments about MC being perhaps a more expensive or higher-end CP option than necessary; I agree.  There are other options.  I've been trying Bubble UPnP on an Android tablet, and it seems to work fine.  It may sound superficial, but I really like how the MC's theater view looks/works on the 8" tablet.  It's a great looking control interface.  If I can get MC to work as the CP between my NAS and player, and use the theater view interface for control, then I'd be a happy camper.

[csimon]

OK, I've just tried it myself with my own Synology. I enabled Media Server and copied just one music file to its music directory and allowed it to index. I then went to JRiver and the Synology appeared automatically in Playing Now/Playing From (I didn't have to add it first as suggested above).  I clicked on its entry and then a page opened with an option to load the library. I pressed the load library button and from then on my Audio menu below Playing Now showed the one file that I had copied onto the NAS. I then went into Theater View and the Audio menu and again, that file was displayed.

EDIT: Also tried sending to a DLNA renderer (WDTV box) from the DLNA Server (NAS) via MC Theater View and it all worked smoothly.

BTW it's not superficial at all to say you like the Theater View interface, that's what it's all about!  It has its own issues but there should indeed be a big focus on UI, in terms of both usability and attractiveness, and especially on touch-enabled handheld devices which have been around for quite a bit of time by now.

[csimon]

MC does have its own free Android app too called Gizmo which is available from the store. It doesn't (yet) have as much eye candy and functionality as Theater View on a Windows PC/tablet but it's worth a try to see if the pared-down approach works well for you.

[mr_curmudgeon]

OK, I've just tried it myself with my own Synology. I enabled Media Server and copied just one music file to its music directory and allowed it to index. I then went to JRiver and the Synology appeared automatically in Playing Now/Playing From (I didn't have to add it first as suggested above).  I clicked on its entry and then a page opened with an option to load the library. I pressed the load library button and from then on my Audio menu below Playing Now showed the one file that I had copied onto the NAS. I then went into Theater View and the Audio menu and again, that file was displayed.

EDIT: Also tried sending to a DLNA renderer (WDTV box) from the DLNA Server (NAS) via MC Theater View and it all worked smoothly.

BTW it's not superficial at all to say you like the Theater View interface, that's what it's all about!  It has its own issues but there should indeed be a big focus on UI, in terms of both usability and attractiveness, and especially on touch-enabled handheld devices which have been around for quite a bit of time by now.

It was your last step - loading the library - that I didn't do before.  My concern was that if I did, the signal path would go through the tablet instead of directly from NAS to player.  But having done it now, it's working exactly as I want it to. 

Man, this is great!  I've got the nice interface I want, the direct signal path I was hoping for, and the tablet is a controller only.  I can shut the tablet off or go into another program, and it has no effect on the playback.  I couldn't be happier!

BTW - I picked up the Dell Venue 8 tablet at my local Microsoft store for under $300, and have to say that I really like it.  The 8" size is very comfortable to hold, and being a full Win8 PC, I can load legacy windows programs and get a lot of functionality.  Theater View looks great on it, cover art looks nice, and the functions in that mode all seem to work well via touch.  The only downside is that the touch screen isn't compatible with a digitizer pen.  I found that in setting up JRiver, it was very helpful to have a bluetooth mouse.  Trying to tap the small menus was almost impossible with a finger and highly difficult with one of the squishy stylus'.  I think some of the second-generation 8" Win8 tablets are going to have screens that work with a pen, which will make them much easier to use for this purpose, as well as being more versatile overall.

I just want to offer a 'big thanks' for all the help I've received here.  I couldn't have gotten here as quickly otherwise.  What a great forum!

[AndrewFG]

the Synology appeared automatically in Playing Now/Playing From (I didn't have to add it first as suggested above).
I clicked on its entry and then a page opened with an option to load the library.

Actually I wasn't suggesting that you have to add it first. I was suggesting that you have to load it first. And that is exactly what you just confirmed in your own post...

It was your last step - loading the library - that I didn't do before.

Indeed.

[csimon]

Actually I wasn't suggesting that you have to add it first. I was suggesting that you have to load it first. And that is exactly what you just confirmed in your own post...

Oh...apologies, I had it in the back of my mind that you'd mentioned something about adding it via an IP address!  It must have been another post I was thinking of.

[csimon]

BTW - I picked up the Dell Venue 8 tablet at my local Microsoft store for under $300, and have to say that I really like it.....

That's interesting to know, thanks. Was thinking about a Windows tablet myself (although at the time they weren't really available) and using Theater View, but wasn't convinced how well it would work, with it not being an interface designed primarily with a touch & swipe interface in mind.

If I had the space and my house was suited to it, I'd like a 19" all-in-one PC running Theater View on the coffee table! (Along with the arcade cabinet in the corner....)

[mr_curmudgeon]

If I had the space and my house was suited to it, I'd like a 19" all-in-one PC running Theater View on the coffee table! (Along with the arcade cabinet in the corner....)

Think bigger!  How about one of those Surface coffee tables where the whole top is a touch-enabled display?

Now we're talking! 

[ssands]

This is pretty much what I want to do, (and forgive me if this is obvious as I am still a newbie):

I have a NAS.

Sometime I want to play the tunes on my laptop from the NAS.

Other times I want to use the laptop simply as a controller and direct the tunes from the NAS to the Naim network player that I have (for the same reasons as the original poster - 24 bit is not working for me when I am wireless).

So, what do I need to do for this "dual" scenario? Sometime a player, sometimes a controller?

[csimon]

I assume you've already got MC on your laptop. Otherwise you wouldn't be here!  But I don't know how far yo've got and what you've done so far.

In a nutshell, you import your media files (that are on your NAS) into MC's library. You then use MC as any other media player program, e.g. WMP, iTunes etc. You use the program on your laptop to browse and play music. By default, teh destination for the music is the computer you're running MC on.

If your Naim is a DLNA renderer then it will appear as a "zone" in MC. A zone is simply an alternative destination. So you can select that as the destination then whatever you select to play will be sent to the Naim instead of playing on the local PC.

Please look round the Wiki http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Category:Frequently_Asked_Questions for help and ideas, particularly the Getting Started page, DLNA page, and Media Network.

Also read through this thread as all the answers have already been given!

[ssands]

Thanks CSimon,

I do have all that bit working (for quite some time). I think I may have not articulated my issue very well, but it is related to Mr. Curmudeon's.

When I play to the Naim renderer, I do not want the media to flow through my laptop, which it does now. This is because, my wireless cannot handle 24-bit audio without dropouts.

I can do it as you mentioned for 16-bit audio and it works, but the Hi-Res is where I have the problem.

That is why I'd like to use MC as only a controller when I play to the Naim renderer.

[csimon]

The file has to go from server to renderer, if your server is wireless then there's not a lot you can do to avoid it. The solution is either make your laptop wired or install a DLNA server on your NAS and play from NAS to Naim, i.e. not using MC as a server. Does your NAS have a DLNA server and does it have an app or web-based controller that you can use on the laptop? Alternativley, you could use MC by connecting it to the NAs's server rather than using its own library. Again, read through this thread, this has already been discussed.

[ssands]

I wasn't clear.

NAS: Wired
Naim Renderer: Wired
Laptop: wireless

I'll go back and review this thread with MC open in front of me. My primary issue is:
Use MC as audio player when I want to hear on my PC (works fine, even with 24-bit audio)
Use MC as controller only when playing to Naim renderer (and served from wired NAS).  <==This is where I am unsure of the setup, and it may be how I set up the library or some other setup option I was not tuned into.

Like I said, I'll review the thread with MC open in front of me tonight (can't do it at work now).

[csimon]

I think the OP had trouble grasping the concept too, but the answer is in Reply #13.

But this relies on your NAS having a DLNA server. If it hasn't got one then I can't think of any way you can achieve this. Your server needs to be wired. So either your laptop needs to be wired, using MC as a server, or you need a server on the NAS.

[ssands]

It seems a bit obvious in hindsight.

My files were originally on my hard drive and I pointed my main library to the files.

I then bought a NAS and repointed to the new drive mapping. So, MC still saw files on a drive and thus had to act as a DLNA Server.

Now, I have pointed the lib to the NAS DLNA server and it works. (Using ReadyNAS which comes with DLNA and UPnP servers - not sure why it has both, actually).

I was a bit unclear of the concepts, but I think I'm getting it now.

So, an additional question (sorry for the thread hijack): I have some cases where I want MC to convert the audio (or video) to a format compatible to one of my renderers.  So, in this case, how would I get MC to retrieve from the NAS, convert the file to an appropriate format, and then route the data to the renderer?

[csimon]

Using ReadyNAS which comes with DLNA and UPnP servers - not sure why it has both, actually).

There's really no difference that matters really. DLNA is a subset of UPnP and a lot of people say it's flawed!

So, an additional question (sorry for the thread hijack): I have some cases where I want MC to convert the audio (or video) to a format compatible to one of my renderers.  So, in this case, how would I get MC to retrieve from the NAS, convert the file to an appropriate format, and then route the data to the renderer?

The server has to do the converting. If you are using MC as the server then you can set conversion options in the DLNA server settings. If your NAS is the server then you have to set up conversion in the NAS DLNA server. See http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/UPnP_Server for information about MC's DLNA server. If you want to use MC as a controller only then you cannot get it to do the converting.

Are you thinking about converting 24-bit to 16-bit so that it can stream wirelessly and therefore you don't have to use the NAS server?

[ssands]

There's really no difference that matters really. DLNA is a subset of UPnP and a lot of people say it's flawed!

Wow, I thought it was the other way around and that DLNA was "better" than UPnP. Maybe I'll switch the type of server running on my NAS.

Are you thinking about converting 24-bit to 16-bit so that it can stream wirelessly and therefore you don't have to use the NAS server?

Yes, I have some renderers (Sonos, in particular) that won't play hi-res audio. So, perhaps in the Sonos case I should create a different library where the audio files are accessed via the drive mappings and not the DLNA/UpnP server. Would that make sense?

[JimH]

DLNA is a superset of UPnP.  Neither is really superior and, for most purposes, one will work with the other.

[csimon]

Wow, I thought it was the other way around and that DLNA was "better" than UPnP. Maybe I'll switch the type of server running on my NAS.
Yes, I have some renderers (Sonos, in particular) that won't play hi-res audio. So, perhaps in the Sonos case I should create a different library where the audio files are accessed via the drive mappings and not the DLNA/UpnP server. Would that make sense?

There is no need to switch between DLNA and UPnP if you are having no problems.

I don't think you've grasped the idea of what a library is. It's a database of media files. You don't need to create a new library for sending to a different destination. If you are sending to a DLNa device then you enable conversion in the DLNA server if the renderer isn't able to play them natively. You can set up multiple DLNA servers in MC with different settings if different renderers require them.

[ssands]

I don't think you've grasped the idea of what a library is. It's a database of media files. You don't need to create a new library for sending to a different destination. If you are sending to a DLNa device then you enable conversion in the DLNA server if the renderer isn't able to play them natively. You can set up multiple DLNA servers in MC with different settings if different renderers require them.

I would more accurately phrase it as: I haven't grasped *how* the library is used yet. 

Here's where I *think* my lack of understanding is: If my Library is pointed at my NAS DLNA server, and I want to route that music to a renderer with MC doing a conversion, how would setting up a DLNA server for that destination work? Isn't the NAS DLNA server already the server in this scenario? It seems to me that I would then have two DLNA servers: one on the NAS, and the one MC was providing.

Another use case (which I solved last night as mentioned above) is that I also want to use MC as a controller for a different renderer without any pass-thru MC (that now works).

Obviously, there are some key concepts I am fuzzy on (to be generous). Thanks for helping out.

[csimon]

LOL!

If, in MC, you have loaded the library that is the NAS DLNA server then you can't get MC to do the conversion. The conversion has to happen in the NAS's server.

Yes, you're right, we're talking about two DLNA libraries here, one on your laptop in MC and the other on the NAS. The reason why we're talking about setting one up on the NAS is so that files can go directly to the renderer from the NAS without going through MC.

If, however, you set up conversion in MC, to reduce the quality of the files in order for them to go wirelessly or to enable a renderer to play them, then you don't need the NAS server.

We're getting confused here with different use cases.

[ssands]

Cool! I think I've got a handle on it now.

I should have more clearly separated in my text the issues I was trying to address.

Thanks for you perseverance!

[ssands]

Well, this all brings up a related question:

If I am loading a library off of my DLNA server (which is on my NAS), then does that mean I now have a library on the NAS (and NOT local to my laptop running MC)? If so, isn't this a problem (due to the chattiness between MC and the library)?

[AndrewFG]

DLNA is a superset of UPnP.

I think strictly DLNA is a subset of UPnP rather than a superset.

The UPnP A/V Media Specification documents are the original specifications. In some cases those documents describe functions in quite broad and inclusive terms. And the DLNA people feared that in some cases the original specifications were so broad that different manufacturers might interpret them differently and cause unnecessary interworking problems. So the DLNA people wrote a DLNA Implementation Guideline that essentially goes chapter by chapter through the UPnP A/V Media Specification and explains exactly how each paragraph shall be interpreted, and defines certain minimum "must fulfill" requirements.

[AndrewFG]

If I am loading a library off of my DLNA server (which is on my NAS), then does that mean I now have a library on the NAS (and NOT local to my laptop running MC)?

You need to be careful of the precise definition of the word "library". When MC talks about a "library", they mean a specific database file which contains an index of all your media tracks, together with each track's meta data. Whereas when normal mortals speak of a library they often are referring to the actual media tracks themselves. It is possible for the "library" and the tracks to be located in different places on different machines. But even if the media tracks are located on a remote NAS or DLNA server, the MC "library" database file is normally located (default setting) on the machine where MC is running.

If so, isn't this a problem (due to the chattiness between MC and the library)?

Since the "library" and MC are on the same machine, the chattiness is not normally a big issue. When MC is first building the "library" it has to scan all the actual media files and import the meta data from them, so the initial library building process takes a bit longer. (And if you make big global changes in the "library" it also takes a bit longer before all changes are mirrored back into the actual media files). However for normal browsing and playing of individual tracks you probably won't notice any performance difference.

Note: The above comments only apply in the case that the NAS Server remains awake. If the NAS has gone into sleep mode, then you may notice performance delays while the NAS wakes itself up.

[csimon]

If I am loading a library off of my DLNA server (which is on my NAS), then does that mean I now have a library on the NAS (and NOT local to my laptop running MC)? If so, isn't this a problem (due to the chattiness between MC and the library)?

No, DLNA is a client/server protocol.  When MC is connected to a DLNA server, all it does is send requests to the server and it's the server that interrogates the database. MC doesn't manipulate the database files directly and has no access to them over a file-sharing protocol.  I suppose it's a problem if you've got an extremely slow network but client/server requests like that are minimal and would only be a problem if you've got your devices connected together by string!

[csimon]

Since the "library" and MC are on the same machine, the chattiness is not normally a big issue...

I think he means when MC is connected to a remote DLNA server rather than using a local library.

[AndrewFG]

I think he means when MC is connected to a remote DLNA server rather than using a local library.

The MC "library" database file is always on the machine where MC is running. But there are three possible ways that MC can load/build this library:

• scanning in the description and meta data from all individual media files on the local machine by using the local Windows file system, or
• scanning in the description and meta data from all individual media files on a remote file share machine by using the network file system, or
• scanning in the description and meta data from all individual media files on a remote UPnP / DLNA server by using the UPnP client server protocols

This load/build scanning in process occurs once when the initial "library" is being built. And every now and then MC queries the local file system / remote network file system / UPnP / DLNA server whether there have been any changes to the media files, and if so it triggers a rescan process to rebuild / update the "library". However such rescans happen quite seldom, and run in the background, so they don't usually cause any performance hit.

[csimon]

Ah - MC caches a local copy of a remote DLNA library and has to sync changes at irregular intervals!

Aaargh!

[csimon]

I think there is sometimes confusion (me included) over the term "library" as it can actually have 3 meanings, althouhg I thought there was only 2.

1. The media files themselves.
2. The database of metadata for the physical files.
3. The local "working copy" of the metadata database.

In other words, if MC always copies the selected library into local storage, it doesn't actually matter whether you put the library on a NAS or not as it's always copied locally. Which is not what I've been advising, as I thought MC accessed the library from whereveryou put it.

It's all very confusing.

[AndrewFG]

Ah - MC caches a local copy of a remote DLNA library and has to sync changes!

Not a local copy of the actual media files themselves. But an index file (aka "library") that contains the file description, file location, meta data, album art, access protocol etc. for all media files concerned...

1. The media files themselves.
2. The database of metadata for the physical files.
3. The local "working copy" of the metadata database.

Items 2. and 3. are the same thing. In the default installation of MC this database is always local to the machine where MC is installed.

[csimon]

Items 2. and 3. are the same thing. In the default installation of MC this database is always local to the machine where MC is installed.

There must be a "working copy" library, otherwsie there would be nowhere for a DLNA library or a client-connected cached copy to go.

You can set up multiple local libraries (my nbr 2) in whatever location you want, but there is also a separate one which is always local and is used when  non-local library is attached. Your statement "The MC library database file is always on the machine where MC is running. But there are three possible ways that MC can load/build this library: " demonstrates this - you imply that there is only one MC library which is always local and can be populated in various ways. This is different from my nbr 2, as there can be multiple instances of those and you can put them wherever you like.  So when we talk about "the library", do we mean the local working copy that is controlled by MC, or one of the instances that the user has created? When we talk about what the best location is to put "the library", this only makes sense if talking about nbr 2, as there is no control over nbr 3.

I have a main library, which is in the default location, locally, which holds all my media collection. I then load a DLNA library. Where does my main library go and where does the DLNA library get loaded into? Does my main library get backed up somewhere so that the DLNA library can be loaded into it and then gets restored afterwards?

[JimH]

Ah - MC caches a local copy of a remote DLNA library and has to sync changes at irregular intervals!

In your auto import rules, you can exclude any directories you don't want imported.

[JimH]

You're the expert, but my understanding is that DLNA also added some potential for "protection".

For our purposes, they're equally functional (when they aren't broken).

[AndrewFG]

There must be a "working copy" library, otherwsie there would be nowhere for a DLNA library or a client-connected cached copy to go.

Look at "C:\Users\YourName\AppData\Roaming\J River\Media Center 19" -- in this folder are sub folders called Library, Connected Library, DLNA Library, Thumbnails etc. and I think it ought to be fairly clear from the folder names what is going on here. Or?

This is what JRiver means by the "library". And IMHO it is always, and only, a local working copy. The actual media files can be located on a local hard disk, a network share, or a UPnP Digital Media Server. I am not aware of any other non local "library". What would be the point of such?

EDIT: Reading your last post again, I realize that you are referring to the "New Library" function, which indeed allows you to create and load another "library" containing other media files. And indeed you are right that it is possible to store such a "New Library" in a folder other than "C:\Users\YourName\AppData\Roaming\J River\Media Center 19". So, in other words, to be specific, the Main Library and any DLNA Digital Media Server libraries are loaded and cached in "C:\Users\YourName\AppData\Roaming\J River\Media Center 19" but if you add another "New Library" it will be located somewhere else...

[AndrewFG]

You're the expert, but my understanding is that DLNA also added some potential for "protection".

Yeah, you are right too  

Quite often the UPnP spec says "implementers may do A, B, or C" and the DLNA guidelines are more exact "implementers must do C".
But sometimes the UPnP spec says "optional vendor specific extensions are allowed, if they follow this format" and DLNA specifies an explicit extension.

I am not aware of DLNA having added anything concerning "protection", but (for example) they did add a set of flags of the form DLNA.ORG_XYZ that are used to provide extension information about the content of media files, beyond the information normally given in its mime-type. The idea of this information is (would have been) to allow renderers to learn more about the capabilities of servers for handling a specific track and thus improving interworking, but the oft encountered side effect is that if the server doesn't deliver the right "optional vendor extensions" then the renderer falls over...  

For our purposes, they're equally functional (when they aren't broken).

Ain't that the case ...

[csimon]

I don't know what the difference here is between Connected Library and Connected Library (Local), can you explain? I have no DLNA Library folder, I have:

Connected Library
Connected Library (Local)
Library

So what happens to the DLNA library when you connect, is it moved into Library, or Connected Library (Local)?

Which is MC's one and only local library?

[AndrewFG]

I don't know what the difference here is between Connected Library and Connected Library (Local), can you explain? I have no DLNA Library folder, I have:

Connected Library
Connected Library (Local)
Library

So what happens to the DLNA library when you connect, is it moved into Library, or Connected Library (Local)?

Which is MC's one and only local library?

My apologies, I had overlooked the topic of additional libraries created by the "New Library" function. I edited my earlier post with some additional comments on that.

Concerning the Connected Library, Connected Library (Local), Library folders, I have to admit that I don't know the inner details of what gets written where, but I assume there is some auto magic going on there

Concerning the DLNA Library folder, it contains sub folders for each UPnP Digital Media Server it has loaded; every DMS has a unique id so MC uses this uid to identify which "library" sub folder applies..

[csimon]

Yeah, I'm not trying to be awkward, it's just a case of understanding what's happening. In another thread, we've advised against people putting a library on a NAS, but if it gets copied to local storage anyway when connected then it shouldn't matter. It also helps to inform synching problems.

[ssands]

This is actually a pretty awesome conversation. Thanks!

So, understanding that a Library is metadata (not media), then it seems that, by default, my Libraries are all local. (Not at home, so I can't verify all the different subdirectories mentioned earlier).

But, when I look at Library Manager for a library composed of mapped files, it displays a local path.
When I look at Library Manager for a library loaded from a DLNA server, no path is presented.

I've had all three types of Libraries mentioned:

• All files local to the MC machine
• Files mapped from a fileshare
• DLNA Server

As mentioned earlier, I mapped a DLNA server, so I could use MC as a remote and send Hi-Res Audio from wired server to wired renderer, because my wireless laptop could not handle the throughput for Hi-Res audio (reg 16/44 audio is not a problem).

The DLNA server is on the NAS so it has all the same files as the library created when I mapped a drive to the NAS.

However, MC has not picked up *any* of the video metadata! Audio media seems to have the metadata: I have album covers, artists, etc. But video is only recognized as a bunch of files.

Is there anyway to force MC to look at the metadata it created (correctly) when the files were mapped?
Any idea why MC would not properly tag the video?