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Author Topic: Can I rip from a PC to the Server Library?  (Read 6476 times)

yoyoc

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Can I rip from a PC to the Server Library?
« on: March 18, 2014, 12:51:58 pm »

Regards all.

I am using a server where my library resides and is made available to several PCs. My server does not have a disk drive.

My question is, Since on the other PCs I can specify the library location at ther server disk.  Can I auto rip discs played to the server located library?

Thanks.
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yoyoc

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Re: Can I rip from a PC to the Server Library?
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2014, 02:22:54 pm »

I just saw the topi discussed for versions 18 and 17, the basic answer was that it was not supported because it would require massiva data transffers making it unpractical.

Then my nexts question is to find an alternate way.  Is it possible to do one way sync of music and video files between two computers?

If there is I could rip on one computer, then the file would sync back to the server library folder and I could delete the ripped file from the client if I wished, keeping it only on the server for all clients to use.

of course another answer is to move the folder manually via windows explorer, but its kind of impractical because the you have to have the server scan for changes in the library folders.

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imugli

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Re: Can I rip from a PC to the Server Library?
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2014, 05:20:20 pm »

Do I have it correctly that all you're trying to do is rip CDs or DVDs (or BluRay) from MC client to your MC Server? I don't see why you can't do this if you set up the location to rip to correctly (In fact I do just that and I'm sure many others do as well).

I think the problem may be with the "Auto" part of the equation...

glynor

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Re: Can I rip from a PC to the Server Library?
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2014, 05:41:10 pm »

This used to work pretty well, but then (due to user confusion) they "turned it off" when you are connected to a Library Server.

So, here's the deal:

Client copies of MC cannot import files.  Period.  They can retag files that are already there, but they cannot import new files.  There's no API call in MCWS to allow for this, and if there is no API call, the client can't do it.  MC in "Client Mode" has no "secret sauce" in this regard.  It uses MCWS to connect to the server, the same way Gizmo or JRemote do.

So, when you have a copy of MC in Client Mode (connected to another copy's Library), MC disables all of the "importing" related options.  This includes Ripping too, of course, because the files need to be able to be imported when they're done ripping.

In the old days, you could set up the Clients to rip to a particular directory which resides on a filesystem that the server can see and monitor.  Then, even though the Client can't import the files into MC, the Server will Auto-Import them (assuming Auto-Import is on and watching said ripping directory), and it would "feel" like it was working properly.  But, of course, this required you to understand the intricacies of using Network Shares, when it would work (on a LAN) and when it wouldn't (away from the LAN), and other various esoterica.  Since the features were enabled in the interface, to many users, it just seemed broken.  I remember answering a bunch of the threads myself.

Okay, that explained... How can you work around this?

Well, using MC in Client Mode to rip files is right out.

But... A copy of MC with a Local Library can rip files, of course.  And, MC can open Libraries directly even from Network Shares.  This isn't recommended for everyday use, but it does work.  If the folder where your Library lives on the server (in your user profile's AppData directory by default) is shared over the network, you can open it from your Client copy directly.  Now, if the Server is still running (as it typically will be) then it opens in Read-Only Mode and pops up a warning.  But, the Ripping functions are enabled and work properly.

So, here's what I do on my HTPC (for example):

1. MC is set up to always launch and connect to my server.  I do this via a little scriplet that uses MC's command line options to directly use the proper Library when launching, and all my shortcuts to MC on the system point to this scriplet instead of to MC itself directly.

2. In this copy of MC, I've added a second "copy" of my main Library from the Server, but this time it is added as a Local Library.  The "path" is just the network path to the folder where my Library lives on the Server.  I'd recommend you move the Library out of your AppData directory first for this, as sharing that path directly is probably a bad idea.  I give this copy of my Library a name like "My Library (Direct)" to distinguish it from the "regular" version.  You could even call this "Ripping Mode" if you wanted to make it clear for other users of the system.

3. Then, in MC, I add the Library "button" to the Top Toolbar.  This provides an easy-to-use dropdown where you can choose which Library to load.  You could do the same via the regular Library Manager, but I find this method quicker and more obvious to my wife.  In any case, when you want to rip something, switch over to this direct version of the Library.  MC will load it, and probably complain that it is in Read-Only Mode.  That's okay, because...

4. Then, I set up that client's Rip-To File Locations to rip to a folder shared on the network that my Server can see, and has "watched" via Auto-Import.  For performance, this can be a local disk if you want, or if your Network is fast enough, you can rip right to the server's regular big media drive share.

5. So long as Auto-Import is enabled and watching those shares, you can ignore the fact that the Server will "lose" the files when you close the Client copy of MC, because Auto-Import will pick them up (nearly instantly, in most cases).  One note, you must ensure that any metadata you enter during the ripping process will be encoded in the file's tags, or else Auto-Import will lose this information.  In practice, this means I just rip things and mostly leave them as-is (entering only very generic stuff as needed, or what is shown in the ripping-tagging dialog).  Tagging is done after switching back to normal operation.

6. When you're done ripping, just switch back to your regularly added Network Library, and presto, the files will be there.

It works quite well, even if it is a bit clumsy.  If you can make sure your network locations are set up nicely, it isn't difficult to use.
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rpalmer68

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Re: Can I rip from a PC to the Server Library?
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2014, 06:43:25 pm »

I might add that although you can't RIP or Import on the client if you have shell integration enabled, you can from the client Right-click/Media Center/Import and it does import the files.

You can then tag them etc from the client as well.  BUT don't do anything with cover art, that still needs to happen on the server.


And of course make sure that the path you use on the client to do the import is the same path used on the server.

Richard

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yoyoc

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Re: Can I rip from a PC to the Server Library?
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2014, 09:09:25 pm »

Another idea for this.

In windows home group you can share drives..   Including optical drives.

Is there a way to point the server to the Blu ray drive on my htpc so wben I load a disc the server sees it as a local drive snd rips what is on that drive?

Like mapping a hdd to anothe computer in windows.   I use w7 ultimate.
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Listener

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Re: Can I rip from a PC to the Server Library?
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2014, 02:00:43 am »

Regards all.

I am using a server where my library resides and is made available to several PCs. My server does not have a disk drive.

My question is, Since on the other PCs I can specify the library location at the server disk.  Can I auto rip discs played to the server located library?


I think that we need to clarify what you mean before providing answers. (Server and library may each have several meanings.)

1. Do you have JRiver running on the server PC? (You could mean that the server is a file server only or a media server.)

2. Do you expect to store the music files on the server?

3. Do you expect to store the JRiver database files on the server?  (People often refer to their collection of music files as a library.  JRiver refers to the database containing tags info and other descriptive fields as a library.)

4. Do you expect all copies of JRiver running on client PCs to use the same database or will they each have their own database?

The answers to your questions depend on what you had in mind. 

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yoyoc

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Re: Can I rip from a PC to the Server Library?
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2014, 06:20:48 am »

Ok

I have a server running windows home server 2011.   Also running jrmc 19 that is where the files withusic,  movies,  tags, erc reside and to where the other computers connect to pull music and movies from.

I want to rip the disks so that the music and movie files,  as well as the database files,  tags etc are on the server,  so that all clients use the same files,  library files,  etc,  including remote access.
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glynor

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Re: Can I rip from a PC to the Server Library?
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2014, 06:32:04 am »

Another idea for this.

In windows home group you can share drives..   Including optical drives.

Is there a way to point the server to the Blu ray drive on my htpc so wben I load a disc the server sees it as a local drive snd rips what is on that drive?

Like mapping a hdd to anothe computer in windows.   I use w7 ultimate.

No.  I don't think you can do this.
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glynor

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Re: Can I rip from a PC to the Server Library?
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2014, 06:33:17 am »

I might add that although you can't RIP or Import on the client if you have shell integration enabled, you can from the client Right-click/Media Center/Import and it does import the files.

I'm not sure this actually works either.
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yoyoc

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Re: Can I rip from a PC to the Server Library?
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2014, 09:54:15 am »

No fun...

If I understand correctly  then MC can be used as a media server, but it can not be installed to be used as such on a real server because there is no  simple way to add files and library data to it if not  by a drive directly connected to the server.

If that is correct, something has to be done to correct it, as a server should not be a daily driver PC, to prevent data corruption of the files and improve serving data on the network.

At least that the way I see it.

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glynor

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Re: Can I rip from a PC to the Server Library?
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2014, 10:04:56 am »

Auto import can certainly monitor any available network share for which the copy of MC has permissions, including via UNC paths.  I use MC on a number of Windows Server VM instances and very rarely have to RDC in to them to accomplish any non "setup" related task.

It works very well in almost all cases.  Learn to stop worrying and love Auto Import.

I agree that it would be nice if client copies were able to Rip and Import directly, though I'm not sure how common this need is in the Real World.

I'm not sure what you're referring to regarding data corruption, but generalizations are typically not helpful.  If you have a specific concern, please explain.

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yoyoc

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Re: Can I rip from a PC to the Server Library?
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2014, 12:13:12 pm »

Glynor.

Thanks for your response.  

I am a little lost because I dont understand the abreviations, as I am an adventurous user and read to understand. Mostly I and a DIY, but my formal background is not in information systems.

If I get it right. I could indeed have the server monitor and auto import a file on my other PCs, thus the finnal result is the same as ripping directly to the server.  There would be no problem in latter deleting the imported files from the other PCs as its already imported by the server.

for this to happen you understanding is that there would be no need for special permissions ( other tha having the folder as share on the PC with access from the server) in Windows 7 or Windows Home Server, just to point the server auto import to the proper folder of the PC on the sa,me network.

BTW what are  UNC paths, VM instances ( Virtual Machines?), or RDC ( Remote Desktop Connection?)...   ... too advanced.  I use remote desktop to the server and works quite well from Windows 7.

Regarding data corruption, all the server management guides I have read recommend that server not be used for other daily, say workstation duties as that compromises server security, as in direct access to internet, etc.

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glynor

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Re: Can I rip from a PC to the Server Library?
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2014, 12:54:31 pm »

You got most of the acronyms.  Sorry, since you were talking servers, I made some assumptions about your level of knowledge.

RDC: Remote Desktop Connection.  This is the remote desktop system built into Windows Pro and Server editions.  There are a ton of other third-party options too, including VNC, which have various benefits and detriments.

VM: Yep, Virtual Machines.  I run two different "server" instances of MC (on Windows Server) at the office which are both on VMWare VMs.  The point is that these servers have no physical box, and certainly no monitor, keyboard, or mouse.  They "live" somewhere in a rack of servers somewhere in Connecticut, I think.  I've never seen them.  But, I don't need to log into them more than once in a blue moon, in most cases.  The thing that annoys me most is when I need to move files around, but I work around this using a system basically identical to the one I described above.  I switch to a "local library" copy of the server's Library, use Rename, Move, and Copy from that computer to move the files (this "breaks" the original copies in the Server), but then Auto-Import picks up the newly moved copies and fixes itself.  The only bad thing (if you care) is that this wipes your [Date Imported] tag, and you have to make sure MC can properly fix broken links while doing Auto-Import (which is usually not a problem unless you have a weird disk setup).

UNC paths: This is a way to have a filename path on Windows that points to a network (or local) file or directory that does NOT start with a drive letter.  They're formatted like this:

\\servername.domain.com\share_name\path\to\the\file.flac
If you don't have a full domain name and DNS server (as most people wouldn't at home), you omit the domain.com part and just use:
\\servername\share_name\path\to\the\file.flac

More details:
http://compnetworking.about.com/od/windowsnetworking/g/unc-name.htm
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/aa365247%28v=vs.85%29.aspx
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/gg465305.aspx
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2787203/unc-path-to-a-folder-on-my-local-computer

MC will accept UNC-style paths in all places where you can enter a file or folder path (usually by hitting a browse button and finding the file or folder you want).  Part of the beauty of this system is that they are connected "on demand", as opposed to Network Drives with a drive letter, which solves some problems when a machine is first booting up and the network might not be "up" yet (a drive letter network drive shows up as "missing" to the OS, where a UNC path tells the requesting application essentially "wait a sec").  The other big benefit is that it doesn't matter if the path is local (on a disk inside the actual computer) or on a remote computer, the path never changes.

So, the way my servers at the office work is that ALL files are imported using UNC paths (even those on the local C drive) rather than via their "regular drive letter path".  That way, the "filename" looks the same to all connected clients, and can be accessed by those clients directly (assuming the logged-in user has appropriate permissions to access the file share), without having to go to each client and map a matching drive letter.

Auto-Import can watch these UNC style paths just like it can watch a folder on your hard drive.  And because MC's Auto-Import system isn't dumb, it actually works well and doesn't cause performance problems.

The way MANY (dumb) auto-import type systems work in most other applications is that it does a periodic rescan (ever 15 minutes or whatever) and looks for new files, by checking every single file it can see and looking for new ones.  That's terrible, especially with network drives and other slow drives because it "eats up" the network every 15 minutes scanning through a bunch of directories, most of which have no changes.

That is NOT how MC's works.  Instead, MC registers for what is called Filesystem Events through Windows.  When a file is created or modified in a "watched" directory, Windows tells MC about just that file that changed, and it imports just that file.  You can search Interact for "auto-import" and my username for further details if you're curious, as I've explained it a ton of times in the past.  The rub is, though, that as long as your network shares aren't on a broken NAS device that doesn't support Filesystem events (there are some of these things out there), MC's Auto-Import system seems like magic.  It imports new files, almost immediately after Windows is done modifying/creating them, and does it without pummeling the network with a bunch of regular scans.

Windows file shares do have a permissions system that you'll need to learn about.  In many home-user situations, this is simple to handle.  Make the username and password the same on all of the machines, and set them to auto-login using that username.  Then, all files "owned" by one user, will be automatically owned by the same-named users on the other machines.

If you are going to try to actually set up and manage an ActiveDirectory domain on your home LAN?  Well... Frankly?  You shouldn't be asking these questions because you'll be in way over your head.  AD is NOT for the feint of heart.  It might be a fun project if you want to learn, but you're going to annoy your family a bunch for the next three years while you learn it.

As far as your last point...  The word "server" can mean a LOT of different things, in IT parlance.

MC is a client application, which (like many other client-side applications) can run a server.  Actually, it can run a few different servers, for different purposes, but that's getting way into the weeds.  It is NOT, in the traditional sense of the word, a "server" application that runs as a service.  It has many of the same characteristics, but there is no "server edition" of MC, and a separate client edition.  The client is both a client and a server.  This has many benefits, once you get into actual use-cases for MC, and the reverse has typically only niche benefits and edge-cases.

But, MC can be sufficiently automated that most tasks can be easily accomplished with a combination of connected client computers, and occasional direct access to the server instance.  Client computers can add, modify, and delete tags.  They can manage playlists, and perform a wide variety of other tasks depending on your network setup.  They cannot:

* Manage files on disk using the Rename, Move, and Copy tool.  This is server-side only.
* Modify the "setup" of the Library at all (construction of or configuration of Views in Standard, Media Network, or Theater Views).
* Import files.

The last one, as I mentioned, I agree would be handy.

However... There are sticky issues in how to implement this well.  The big issue is that they cannot assume that the end-user has actually set up network shares where all of the clients can access filesystems directly that the server can also see.  Remember, MC clients can connect to servers across the Internet, not just at a LAN.  I'm at work right now, listening to music served by my computer at home.  I can't get to my network drives right now (well, I can if I want because I could connect to the VPN I have at home, but I'm a huge nerd with a super-fancy firewall, most people can't do that).

But... If they let you import from a client, how does it transfer the files to the server?  It can't just save them to a local disk, because then the server can't see or use them (unless the user sets up shares and is on a LAN, which they can't assume has been done).  So, what if you're trying to import files that are 10, or 50, or 600GB in size?  How does it send the files to the server?  You can't upload files more than a handful of MB via normal HTTP POST system that a web server would typically use, and if you're on some kind of slow DSL connection at home and you try to "rip" a 50GB BluRay disc on a client?  What does it do?

So... That solution is complex.  I suspect they're thinking about it, but I don't think it is a simple fix because of the design considerations of MC's Client/Server system.
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MrC

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Re: Can I rip from a PC to the Server Library?
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2014, 01:27:00 pm »

Great replies glynor.
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Listener

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Re: Can I rip from a PC to the Server Library?
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2014, 01:31:56 pm »

I have a server running windows home server 2011.   Also running MC 19 that is where the files withusic,  movies,  tags, erc reside and to where the other computers connect to pull music and movies from.

I want to rip the disks so that the music and movie files,  as well as the database files,  tags etc are on the server,  so that all clients use the same files,  library files,  etc,  including remote access.

Thanks for the details.  Here is what I do for audio files:

1. Create a local library on the PC that you want to use to rip CDs/DVD,etc.  Add a few dummy files with commonly occurring tag values (so that MC can provide suggestions to minimize typing and avoid mis-spellings.)

2. Create some folder(s) on the server that are visible and write-able from ripping PC.  That could be the final location for the ripped files on the server or a single shared folder you use for copying files to the server.

3. On the ripping PC, switch to the local library when you want to rip files.  You can try ripping directly to folders on the server, to a single shared folder on the server or to local folders on the ripping PC.  When you finish ripping files switch back to viewing the library on the server from the ripping PC.

4. Copy the ripped files to their final destination on the server.

5. Let auto-import on the server find the recently ripped files and import them.  If that isn't quick enough, do a manual import.

I've used this method off and on for years for audio files.  For video files, there may be some database fields that are not present as tags in the ripped files or in a sidecar file.  Those database fields would have to be re-entered when you import the video files into the server library. I can see a way to avoid this problem at the cost of a litlle more messing around.

----
All this said, the simplest solution might be to buy a USB attached drive for ripping directly on the server MC.

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glynor

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Re: Can I rip from a PC to the Server Library?
« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2014, 02:19:09 pm »

Thanks for the details.  Here is what I do for audio files:

Great addition, Listener.

My suggestion above is essentially exactly the same thing (explained with fewer details in some spots).  The only difference is in Step 1 in your instructions.

What I do instead of your Step 1 above is connect to the server's Library directly, just like it is a local library.  This has the benefit that you are working from your actual Library, not some dummy "throwaway".  So, to explain explicitly:

1. On the Server, my Library is in a folder like: C:\library_data\my_fancy_library\
2. On the Server, I share the C:\library_data\ folder, like you would any other file share.
3. On the Client Machines, I add the Network Library normally using the server's DNS name, IP Address, or Access Key (whatever works for you).  This is the "normal" Library that is used day-to-day.
4. I then go back into the Library Manager, and add another Library.  This time I add it as a Local Library (named as I described in my original post in this thread) and put the server's UNC share path (created in step 2 above) as the path to the Library: \\servername\library_data\my_fancy_library\

So, now, when I'm connected normally through MC's Library Server system, everything works as it normally does.
When I want to rip something, or (incidentally) import photos and videos from our cameras or phones, I switch to this second "Direct" copy of the Library.

When it loads, it does (of course) complain that it will load Read-Only (because the server is using the Library and only one copy of MC can have read/write access to a particular Library at one time).  However, if you know what MC "means" by Read-Only, it isn't what you might think initially.  MC lets you make changes to a Read-Only Library, and works normally.  As far as you can tell when connected, it works just like it would with a regular local Library.  Except, when you close that copy of MC, all of those changes are "thrown away" (because they can't be saved).

But, in these instances... What difference does that make?  You're suggesting to use a transient "dummy" local library anyway, and my way, the Library you're looking at is really "your Library" (with all the stuff, tags, setup, views, etc).  There's nothing to "keep in sync" if you make changes to the setup of your "real" Library on the server, and you don't have a specialty "ripping Library" filled with "junk".

And, as you said in the rest of your instructions, Auto-Import takes care of the rest.  When I'm done ripping or importing from my cameras, I switch back to the regular network Library, and the stuff is already all there.

This has another benefit...

Those Servers I have that are truly "headless" (the VM ones)?  If you DO want to make changes to them that require direct access to the Library (such as creating new Views in the tree, or moving stuff around), then you'd normally be stuck doing this via a remote desktop connection type of system.  That's irritating and makes my eyes bleed.

This way, it is super-easy.  All I do is RDC into my Server, and log out.  When I log out, MC closes on the Server, and that "Direct" Library is no longer "in use".  Since I didn't shut the "computer" down, the network share is still available "on disk", but it is free to be used by any other copy of MC.

So, if I want to tweak Theater View, or my Tree, or do a whole bunch of Rename, Move, and Copy stuff and I can't easily access the "real" server's Keyboard, Mouse, and Monitor?  No biggie:

1. From your "normally a client" computer, RDC in and log out the user on the Server.  This closes MC.
2. Open MC on the client (if it isn't open already) and choose the "Direct" copy of the remote Library.
3. This time, since it ISN'T in use, it opens with full read/write privileges.
4. Make changes as desired.
5. Close MC on the client computer.
6. RDC back into the server and log back in, and you're golden.  Your changes have now "stuck" and you've done it from a nice "fat client" on your Laptop or whatever.

I do this all the time.  I tweaked the server instance once this week at work in just this way, and I use it occasionally when I have to do big Rename, Move, and Copy operations where I don't want to "trust" Auto-Import to fix all of the broken links.  It works awesome, and you only need those two "Library entries" in the Library Manager to do it.

Better, if you have multiple client computers where you might do this?  Set it up once on one of the Clients, then switch to the (never used otherwise) "default" library in the regular AppData directory, and save a Library Backup.  Then, on the "new" computer you're setting up, install MC, get it Licensed, and then restore this Library Backup including the settings and presto, all of those Library entries are put back in the Library Manager (and all your regular MC settings are restored as well).

It makes managing multiple clients a breeze.
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hollidayjr

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Re: Can I rip from a PC to the Server Library?
« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2014, 02:39:20 pm »

Just use AnyDVDHD on your client (I assume you have it if you watch BluRay) and rip to the server library which should be on a network share. MC on the server will pick up the rip automatically (if set up) and then serve it to all your clients. If your network is decent this should work well. I do this all the time with no problems.
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glynor

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Re: Can I rip from a PC to the Server Library?
« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2014, 03:47:49 pm »

Yes, of course, if you use any third-party tool to rip content, just rip to a watched directory.  My instructions are more general relating to using the locked functions of MC.

However, I really like using MC to rip audio CDs and import photos.  This method takes a bit of work to set up (it seems like more than it is when written up), but once done, it takes literally two clicks to switch Libraries.
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yoyoc

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Re: Can I rip from a PC to the Server Library?
« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2014, 04:52:46 pm »

This is great... ;D

One of the things I like most about MC is the great resouce of the Interact people .     

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Listener

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Re: Can I rip from a PC to the Server Library?
« Reply #20 on: March 20, 2014, 01:50:17 am »

Great addition, Listener.

My suggestion above is essentially exactly the same thing (explained with fewer details in some spots).  The only difference is in Step 1 in your instructions.


After I started writing my 5 step post, a number of other people, including you, added posts.  I don't disagree with anything you said.

I tried to provide a simple way for the OP to proceed.  I was concerned that the mass of advice might be getting hard to digest.

The last sentence in my post "I can see a way to avoid this problem at the cost of a litlle more messing around." was about an idea you expressed in your posts: Shut down MC on the server, switch MC on the ripping PC to use the library on the server directly (i.e. network file I/O rather than through the MC library server mechanism) and rip the CD/DVD so that all tag info goes into the MC library on the server.

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glynor

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Re: Can I rip from a PC to the Server Library?
« Reply #21 on: March 20, 2014, 09:51:45 am »

After I started writing my 5 step post, a number of other people, including you, added posts.  I don't disagree with anything you said.

I tried to provide a simple way for the OP to proceed.  I was concerned that the mass of advice might be getting hard to digest.

Yep.  Your method is absolutely a viable alternative, and one that has its own benefits.

If you want to have that separate ripping Library for other workflow-related reasons, it could be a better solution.  In fact, if you put that library on a share on the server's file share, it would not be Read-Only (because the server would be serving the real library, not the ripping one) and then you could use the same special "ripping Library" from everywhere as well (including the server itself, if needed).

For me, trying to manage two separate Libraries is often more trouble than it is worth.  For the "pre-filled tags" reason you alluded to, and because I want to have all of my Standard Views when doing things (and they're constantly mutating).  Keeping them in sync, but separate, is a challenge.  But those needs don't always matter, and for some users I imagine a "clean segregation" is more valuable.
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