Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[39892]

I'm getting a Tick/Click when starting playback of most DSD track files.  Foobar does the same thing, but Korg Audiogate doesn't.  Is this because of the ultrasonic noise between (end of) tracks in DSD?  It seems to be at a fairly high level (~ -40db) if I convert to 192k PCM and look at the waveform, but I wonder if something could or should be done in the default DSD playback.  The DSD album files play continuously without Tick if gapless is selected, but single track startup usually starts with a Tick/Click.  Examples are Acoustic Sounds Michael Jackson album and Duke Ellington album.  I get the same Ticks on different Windows computers with different sound cards, both not DSD dac.  Is it possible Korg is filtering the ultrasonic noise on playback and JRiver not, if indeed the ultrasonics are creating the Ticks?  I don't get the ticks at all on native 192k PCM.

[39892]

Does anyone know if the high level of ultrasonic noise in DSD could be causing clicks at start?  Seems to me I saw a setting somewhere in JRiver to minimize clicks with a DSD DAC, but now I can't seem to find it anywhere.

[6233638]

Unfortunately this seems to be common with a lot of DSD DACs, and a lot of DSD tracks themselves.
The option you were looking for is in the WASAPI Device Settings. (Tools → Options → Audio → Audio Device → Device settings…)
 
 
It's unclear to me how Acoustic Sounds have sourced their DSD files.
If they have been sourced from a SACD rip and then split into individual tracks, it's very likely that the clicks are encoded into the DSD files themselves.
There are problems with the current tool used to rip SACD discs and split it into individual tracks.
 
 
I think Audiogate does some "special" things to try and prevent clicks at the start of playback - though it's unclear to me what exactly it is that it's doing.
At the same time, I do always get a click at the start of DSD playback in Media Center - but not when changing tracks (assuming the files are good) so I do think there's still something which could be handled better with its DSD output.
I don't know what the issue is though, and unfortunately I think it was Matt who handled all the DSD stuff.

[JimH]

MC has an option to "play leading silence" for just this problem.  You could try it.

[39892]

Thanks 6233638 and Jim.  I've tried the settings you've suggested and it's still sort of hit and miss.  Sometimes the click is there when double clicking a track, sometimes not.  But the albums play continuously through the track splices fine for me without clicks (I'm set gapless), so I'm not going to worry about it too much.  Even live albums like Peter Frampton play through the splices perfectly for me, I guess because even if the ultrasonic noise is causing the tracks to click if double clicked, the ultrasonic noise is continuous through the track splices so doesn't click (for me anyway) when playing through continuously.  Re: SACD rip: Apparently some of the Acoustic Sounds albums used the same masters that were used for the Sony SACDs, but nothing is SACD rips AFAIK, they are just individual track files created from the original Sonoma workstation masters.

[capfan]

I'm using MC 19.0.124 and have a mix of PCM (FLAC) and DSF files with the Output Format/Sample Rate in DSP studio is set to 192 KHz for every input format.  When I switch tracks among the DSF sourced files, most (but not all) of the time I hear a light click/pop sound of varying loudness.  This seems to be at least a similar issue to the other users in this thread.  However, I have no DSD hardware that could be causing the click sound.  As far as my DAC knows, it's receiving a single continuous 192 KHz stream.  When sequential DSF album tracks play there is no clicking.  The issue only occurs when switching between DSF sourced files.  Changing tracks among PCM-based files has no issues.  Any ideas how to fix this?

[6233638]

What is the source for your DSF files?
 
There is a bug in the current SACD ripping tools which introduces pops/clicks at the start/end of tracks when splitting to individual DSF tracks.

[capfan]

The DSF files are sourced from SACD rips, I believe the sacd_extract tool was used to extract the DSF from the ISOs.

However, when playing DSF tracks consecutively (gapless) by just letting the album play through there is no clicking issue between tracks.  And the pop/click is not consistently there when switching tracks.  Sometimes it sounds like its coming from the left, right, or both speakers and the loudness varies.  So if the pop/click was actually part of the DSF file I would expect it consistently show up, not just when actively switching tracks.

I also want to mention that I'm using an HDMI connection to my preamp, if that makes any difference.  And I believe the 192 KHz connection is continuous since I can make the track change gapless and still experience the issue.  Thanks!

[JimH]

Try resampling everything to 96Khz, just as a test.  I had a Sony receiver that would make faint clicking at higher sample rates, but not at lower ones.

[capfan]

I will try resampling everything to 96 KHz, but please keep in mind that I have no issue switching between PCM-based tracks (with everything resampled to 192 KHz).  I actually have 88.2 KHz versions of all the DSF files (created with Korg AudioGate) that do not exhibit any clicking.  If I just restart a track over and over I will hear the track fade out and as it's fading out I can hear the click for the beginning of the same track (again inconsistently).  It kind of seems like a processor load issue due to the inconsistency of it and the fact that CPU usage spikes when switching tracks, but not when letting tracks play naturally, where there is no issue letting DSF tracks play naturally.

[6233638]

The DSF files are sourced from SACD rips, I believe the sacd_extract tool was used to extract the DSF from the ISOs.

Well there's your problem. sacd_extract does not extract DSF files correctly and is causing these clicks.
You can extract the files to DFF and then convert to DSF, but I would recommend ripping your discs to ISO and leaving them in that format.
Media Center has built-in support for SACD ISO files, so there is no need to extract the individual tracks from them.

[capfan]

Thanks, I'll try using the ISO files instead of the DSF files.  The ISO to DFF to DSF conversion process does not sound like any fun, so I will try to avoid that.  I was hesitant to go in the ISO direction since I didn't want to deal with figuring out how to keep multi-channel tracks out of the library, since I like having the option to re-import deleted tracks enabled.  Can a sidecar file be used to keep multi-channel tracks out of the library?  In other words, if I delete multi-channel tracks after the import of an ISO, is that information saved in a sidecar so that it won't continually re-import the tracks again?  I apologize if the answer is obvious as I have not yet tried importing an SACD ISO.

[6233638]

I was hesitant to go in the ISO direction since I didn't want to deal with figuring out how to keep multi-channel tracks out of the library, since I like having the option to re-import deleted tracks enabled.

Just customize your view to only list tracks <=2 channels.

[capfan]

So I tried using SACD ISO files for playback instead of the DSF files and I have the same click/pop issue when changing tracks.  Maybe it doesn't happen as loudly or as often as when using the DSF tracks, but it's hard to tell if there is any difference.  Again, this issue is intermittent, but at this point it seems to have something to do with the way the DSD to PCM conversion occurs and perhaps some other factor such as CPU load.

I did notice that the issue does not occur if playback is completely stopped and a new SACD track is chosen.  I also noticed that using a cross-fade to switch tracks can mostly cover up the issue (but not all the time) so perhaps this may be why other people do not notice the click/pop?

[6233638]

Well there are a few issues here. Firstly, there is a bug with the sacd_extract converter, which can cause there to be pops and clicks at the beginning or end of tracks when extracting DSF files.
But that does not seem to be the cause of this problem, as it's happening with SACD ISOs as well.

 
There is another issue, which - as I understand it - is due to DSD's 1-bit nature.
If a track is not zero at the start of playback, it will click.
This means that some tracks will play back just fine if they are played sequentially with gapless playback, but will click if you start playback with them.
 
This is neither Media Center's fault, or anything but the nature of DSD, and how the disc is mastered - at least that was my understanding.
I have tried converting one of these tracks to WAV, and it clicks at the start of playback every time - even in other applications.
 
It seems like this could be solved by having an option which would do a very short fade-in from zero when switching to DSD tracks that are out of order.
I have a taken a track from the middle of an album that must have been mastered with gapless playback in mind, which has a couple of seconds of non-zero "silence" at the start. (actually I wonder if it's a direct tape transfer and it's simply the noise of the tape causing this non-zero "silence" between the tracks)
This track will click at the start every time, no matter which application is used for playback.

But if I select the first hundredth of a second in Audacity and add a fade-in, the click completely disappears.
So perhaps this is something Media Center would be able to do at the start of a DSD playback sequence. (e.g. the start of an album, or the start of any DSD track which is not being played in sequential order)


I have another track which I thought had a few seconds of actual silence at the start, but still clicked when changing to it while another track was playing.
If I started playback on this track there was no click, but it would click every time I switched to it from another track.
Looking at the waveform, it seems that it's non-zero right at the very start of the track (the first tenth of a second) before it is actually silent.
It seems that if I start playback on this track, the time it takes for my DAC to switch sample rates is enough to mask this click at the beginning, but I hear the click when I switch to it from another track, because the DAC is ready to play and doesn't cut off the very start.

I've checked Media Center's SACD conversion/splitting against other tools, and it does seem to be splitting tracks correctly, so it doesn't appear to be Media Center inserting this click at the start of the track - it seems to be the track itself.



And the final issue, that I have been complaining about for a while now, is that Media Center seems to be doing something wrong with its native DSD or DoP output, as my DAC is advertised as being silent when switching between any format, but clicks at the start or end of DSD playback in MC19 most of the time.
It also clicks when converting PCM to DSD, so it doesn't seem to be an issue with the tracks themselves, but MC's DSD implementation.
These complaints seemed to fall on deaf ears, as Matt was insisting that their implementation was correct, and they didn't hear it on whichever DAC it is that they were using for testing.
But this was barely an issue for me in MC18 - and that is still the case - compared to playback in MC19. So that is something which still needs investigated, in my opinion.
 
I had a similar problem getting him to acknowledge that there were problems with Memory Playback in MC19 with DSD files, until I had evidence of this which could not be disputed



So I'm not really sure what the answer is here. When converting to PCM, it does seem that inserting a very short fade-in would help prevent clicks at the start of playback or when changing tracks with DSD files. Obviously you would not want to do this with sequential playback - only at the start of an album.
But the issue with clicks when using DSD to PCM conversion seems to be the tracks themselves rather than something wrong with Media Center's output - at least as far as I can tell anyway.

[glynor]

And the final issue, that I have been complaining about for a while now, is that Media Center seems to be doing something wrong with its native DSD or DoP output, as my DAC is advertised as being silent when switching between any format, but clicks at the start or end of DSD playback in MC19 most of the time.
It also clicks when converting PCM to DSD, so it doesn't seem to be an issue with the tracks themselves, but MC's DSD implementation.
These complaints seemed to fall on deaf ears, as Matt was insisting that their implementation was correct, and they didn't hear it on whichever DAC it is that they were using for testing.
But this was barely an issue for me in MC18 - and that is still the case - compared to playback in MC19. So that is something which still needs investigated, in my opinion.
 
I had a similar problem getting him to acknowledge that there were problems with Memory Playback in MC19 with DSD files, until I had evidence of this which could not be disputed

I don't think any complaints were ignored.

They couldn't find it.  Finding bugs is hard.  They test with a bunch of different equipment, but they (obviously) don't have everyone's equipment on-hand (and even then, there are always n+1 variables to these things, and it is always possible that something else in the confusing interconnected pile of human-made software we call computers has gone wrong.)

You showed evidence.  He looked again, and found something. That's good.  So it goes.

[JimH]

We have quite a few DAC's to test with now.

The comments about "deaf ears" aren't appreciated.

[6233638]

We have quite a few DAC's to test with now.
The comments about "deaf ears" aren't appreciated.

Sorry Jim - it just feels that way sometimes. I know that you're all working hard on the product, and probably have hundreds of other issues to deal with.
 
This loud click with (native) DSD output has been an issue for me since the very earliest builds of MC19 - just like the memory playback issues I've been complaining about.
I still have major issues with CPU usage in MC19's new Memory Playback implementation, and interruption during playback from disk access, which Memory Playback was supposed to address. (and did in MC18)

[Otello]

Well, I don't know what's causing clicks in this case, but maybe it may be useful to know that I had the same problem testing Weiss Saracon software to convert DSF in PCM, while Korg Audiogate doesn't have this issue.
(Please note this was more than 1 year ago, I don't know if Weiss solved the problem in the meantime.)

[6233638]

Well, I don't know what's causing clicks in this case, but maybe it may be useful to know that I had the same problem testing Weiss Saracon software to convert DSF in PCM, while Korg Audiogate doesn't have this issue.
(Please note this was more than 1 year ago, I don't know if Weiss solved the problem in the meantime.)

It's not that Media Center or Saracon are doing anything wrong when converting to PCM, it's that Audiogate seems to be changing something which prevents this from happening.
 
I don't know what it is that Audiogate does, but it seems to do something to the audio that prevents this - possibly inserting silence at the start or fading in?

[HiFiTubes]

And the final issue, that I have been complaining about for a while now, is that Media Center seems to be doing something wrong with its native DSD or DoP output, as my DAC is advertised as being silent when switching between any format, but clicks at the start or end of DSD playback in MC19 most of the time.
It also clicks when converting PCM to DSD, so it doesn't seem to be an issue with the tracks themselves, but MC's DSD implementation.
These complaints seemed to fall on deaf ears, as Matt was insisting that their implementation was correct, and they didn't hear it on whichever DAC it is that they were using for testing.
But this was barely an issue for me in MC18 - and that is still the case - compared to playback in MC19. So that is something which still needs investigated, in my opinion.
 
I had a similar problem getting him to acknowledge that there were problems with Memory Playback in MC19 with DSD files, until I had evidence of this which could not be disputed



So I'm not really sure what the answer is here. When converting to PCM, it does seem that inserting a very short fade-in would help prevent clicks at the start of playback or when changing tracks with DSD files. Obviously you would not want to do this with sequential playback - only at the start of an album.
But the issue with clicks when using DSD to PCM conversion seems to be the tracks themselves rather than something wrong with Media Center's output - at least as far as I can tell anyway.

Which DAC? Just clicks with PCM2DSD in particular?

[6233638]

Which DAC? Just clicks with PCM2DSD in particular?

Benchmark DAC2 HGC
I get clicks when starting or stopping DSD bitstreaming or DSD encoding.

[Fangio]

Using a Schiit Loki, I hear clicks when starting DSD bitstreaming and DSD encoding. Usually one click, but sometimes two.

[polymusic]

A DSD signal should be analyzed in two ways. Audio bandwidth and HF noise.
The music is in the audio bandwidth. The HF noise, above 20kHz, is the result of the noise-shaper.
At the beginning of the track when there is silence, HF can still be at around -25dB with a maximum of -20db.
The level of the HF noise will be responsible for the clicks at start and end of the DSD tracks.
There is NO way you can make a small fade-in in DSD to avoid this from happening. The HF noise is a result of the audio processing which includes  noise-shaping, in this case the fade-in, and therefore the HF content will be as high as before at sample one. So no fade-in for the HF noise. The only way to avoid clicks when starting stopping a DSD files is a small analogue fade-in/out.

In gapless playback, when the tracks perfectly line up, there is a smooth transition, even for the HF noise and there will be no clicks.

[oldzorki]

As mentioned here before, clicks are result of incorrect spitting of ISO file by sacd_extract. Something to with extra-bits at the beginning or end.
I think there are tools, which can them remove those clicks - but clicks never bother me, as they no louder then sound of dropping the needle on a record.
You can also split ISO using JRiver Library conversion tool (and it does not introduce clicks), but because of intermediate conversion to PCM quality is reduced, and it is not insignificant reduction.
JRiver can play SACD-R image "directly" - however very small number of devices support DLNA SACD-R ISO streaming (and OPPO BDP-105 which I use does not), so splitting records to tracks is not optional for me. However, if you have DSD-capable DAC and feed it via USB playing SACD directly should work just fine.