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[RussellS]

Hi, as the title says really, is it possible to playback audio to multiple devices in different rooms and have the audio synchronised so that there is no echo.

I currently have all my media stored on one server running MC19 and share that library with three other MC19 clients and a few DLNA renderers dotted around the house.

I know synchronised audio playback can be achieved using Sonos & Logitech proprietary devices and also I believe Apple Airplay can achieve this so I was wondering if this could also be achieved with Media Center. I know you can setup zones within MC but when I've played with this I could never achieve the synchronised playback I was after. Maybe I was doing something wrong.

I just don't want to waste loads of time trying to achieve this if it is not possible but if I at least know it is achievable I am happy to plough lots of time into it.


Many thanks

Russell

[adamsp70]

Yes it is - thanks to Rogue Amoeba's Airfoil program....
https://www.rogueamoeba.com/airfoil/

I have a TranquilPC sitting under my stairs running MC19 and Airfoil and that is broadcasting (in sync) to 3 Apple Airport Express devices and then various Mac, PC, Android devices, running AirFoil Speakers apps - depending on where anyone is in the house.

Cheap, and works very well.

If you go for a purely AirPlay solution, then it won't be synced, but Airfoil uses the older (and better IMHO) AirTunes support to achieve full syncing.

[glynor]

If you go for a purely AirPlay solution, then it won't be synced, but Airfoil uses the older (and better IMHO) AirTunes support to achieve full syncing.

Interestingly... On an episode of the (always fantastic) Debug Podcast a while back, they interviewed Mike Ash, who is the guy (formerly) from Rogue Amoeba who wrote their syncing engine for AirFoil.  And he talks about a bunch of the sync challenges faced.

The older API isn't necessarily better.

Anyhow, check it out:
http://www.imore.com/debug-28-mike-ash-voodoopad

[6233638]

A few things to keep in mind:
 
1. As far as I am aware, DLNA does not support synchronization - and that's one of the things holding me back from buying DLNA devices right now.
2. Unfortunately AirPlay/Airfoil are far from a perfect solution - though it may work depending on your requirements.
My biggest issues with Airfoil are that:

• It keeps the AirPlay connection active all the time and holds onto devices.
  On more than one occasion I have forgotten to disable Airfoil, which has left other people unable to stream to the device.
  When I last contacted Rogue Amoeba, they said that they were looking into an option to drop the connection if it has been idle for a certain amount of time. (though I don't know if this means it has to be manually started on the PC the next time)
 
• If you intend on using its virtual audio device as a Zone you can play to in Media Center (rather than its hack to capture audio from the program via DirectSound) every time you launch the app or enable AirPlay streaming, it takes control of the default sound device. This means that all system audio gets routed through it.
 
  Rogue Amoeba don't seem to have an interest in fixing this. All they need to do is provide an option which does not change the default audio device when their virtual audio driver is being used.

  The best "solution" I have found is to use AudioSwitch which lets me quickly change the default audio device back without having to open up the control panel.
   (note: AudioSwitch's tray icon does not update if another program changes the active device)

• The program refuses to start minimized in the tray.
 
If these three things were addressed, it could be a well-integrated solution which requires no user input to work.
(an even nicer solution would be having AirPlay support built into Media Center...)

[glynor]

Another note worth mentioning...

MC can synchronize multiple zones, as well as if not better than AirFoil does, when they are directly connected to the PC.  So, if you'd consider running audio cabling around the house from a single PC (with a number of sound cards attached) and using that to drive the system, then MC can do it all itself without compromises.

The issues are all relating to sync via the network, which doesn't work well.

But with Zones with local output devices, MC can sync down to a handful of milliseconds.  It isn't synced perfectly enough to use it for multiple speaker sets in the same room, but for whole-house audio it works brilliantly and has for years.

[glynor]

And, another alternative...

Just use a Mac.  MC on Mavericks gets AirPlay as a regular Zone in MC by default.

[AndrewFG]

1. As far as I am aware, DLNA does not support synchronization

Actually there is a newer version of the UPnP specification in which they have added new methods to the existing services to provide support for synchronised playing across renderers.

But I am not aware of any hardware manufacturers who have yet implemented those new methods.

[6233638]

And, another alternative...
Just use a Mac.  MC on Mavericks gets AirPlay as a regular Zone in MC by default.

I believe this only plays to a single device.
 
MC also seems to forget that you have AirPlay selected as the playback device for a zone if it disappears from your network.


EDIT: I've just tested with my iPad set as an AirPlay receiver in addition to my AirPort Express and MC19 on the Mac only lists "AirPlay [Core Audio]" with no way to select which AirPlay device you are playing to.

When there is more than one AirPlay device listed on the Mac, it doesn't seem to send audio to any of them. (though it thinks it's playing to something - there just isn't any audio)


EDIT2: My mistake - it simply plays to the first device on the list.
Airfoil was holding onto the device and I didn't notice. (again!)
Media Center apparently doesn't know how to handle things when a device is busy, and it looked as though playback was working correctly.

Actually there is a newer version of the UPnP specification in which they have added new methods to the existing services to provide support for synchronised playing across renderers.
But I am not aware of any hardware manufacturers who have yet implemented those new methods.

If only the DLNA component in this hardware could be updated from a central repository rather than relying on manufacturers to release firmware updates. (which are unlikely - manufacturers would rather sell you a new device)

[glynor]

http://lifehacker.com/airwaves-plays-your-macs-audio-over-multiple-airplay-s-477561013

[RussellS]

Yes it is - thanks to Rogue Amoeba's Airfoil program....
https://www.rogueamoeba.com/airfoil/

I have a TranquilPC sitting under my stairs running MC19 and Airfoil and that is broadcasting (in sync) to 3 Apple Airport Express devices and then various Mac, PC, Android devices, running AirFoil Speakers apps - depending on where anyone is in the house.

Cheap, and works very well.

If you go for a purely AirPlay solution, then it won't be synced, but Airfoil uses the older (and better IMHO) AirTunes support to achieve full syncing.

This certainly looks interesting and seems like the best solution at the moment. I was hoping that MC itself would be able to synchronise to multiple clients (over the network) but obviously not.
I will definitely investigate Airfoil though. If it works as well as the website suggests then it will be worth the $25 investment.

Another note worth mentioning...

MC can synchronize multiple zones, as well as if not better than AirFoil does, when they are directly connected to the PC.  So, if you'd consider running audio cabling around the house from a single PC (with a number of sound cards attached) and using that to drive the system, then MC can do it all itself without compromises.

The issues are all relating to sync via the network, which doesn't work well.

But with Zones with local output devices, MC can sync down to a handful of milliseconds.  It isn't synced perfectly enough to use it for multiple speaker sets in the same room, but for whole-house audio it works brilliantly and has for years.

I've never really seen this as a viable solution to be honest. Running audio cable all over the house seems like using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. I've always felt that synchronised audio should be achievable using software and just networked devices which gives the most flexibility in the setup because you are not limited to the locations where you happen to have laid the audio cables.
I suppose it depends on what your requirements are. For 'whole house audio' I can see this setup working quite well. However, if you just want synchronised audio occasionally for a party or something when you may want a couple of rooms synchronised and maybe a laptop on WiFi connected to speakers halfway down the garden then I think the networked approach is better. and more flexible.


Anyway, I'm certainly going to give Airfoil a try and see how it goes.

Many thanks for everyones input. It is much appreciated.

[mwillems]

Another note worth mentioning...

MC can synchronize multiple zones, as well as if not better than AirFoil does, when they are directly connected to the PC.  So, if you'd consider running audio cabling around the house from a single PC (with a number of sound cards attached) and using that to drive the system, then MC can do it all itself without compromises.

The issues are all relating to sync via the network, which doesn't work well.

But with Zones with local output devices, MC can sync down to a handful of milliseconds.  It isn't synced perfectly enough to use it for multiple speaker sets in the same room, but for whole-house audio it works brilliantly and has for years.

Although media center definitely syncs "better" with directly connected devices, it's not an entirely stable sync even then.  I still get pretty noticeable drift on long songs, even with directly connected devices (such that there's a noticeable echo).

Check out these threads for more discussion:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=88762
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=88173.msg604488#msg604488

I agree that cabled zonelink is generally better synced than DLNA zonelink, but neither one is really "all the way there" right now, although it's close to good enough for use in two different rooms. Given the state of clock drift on DACs, zonelink may not be able to get "all the way there" (or if it gets there, it may not be able to get there in all setups).  

[glynor]

Although media center definitely syncs "better" with directly connected devices, it's not an entirely stable sync even then.  I still get pretty noticeable drift on long songs, even with directly connected devices (such that there's a noticeable echo).

I use it quite a bit in my house and it has been fine for multi-room audio.  It may depend on what kind of fancy stuff you're using.  On mine for the multi-room setup, I'm just using junky Realtek onboard analog outs, and that works perfectly well for my needs.

The speakers aren't in the same room, though it is an "open floor plan" and I don't notice a serious echo.

But, again, it might depend on your tolerance for this, and how close the rooms are to one another.  In my case, when I'm doing it, they're far enough separated that you can "only barely hear" (enough to make out lyrics, not enough to call it music) the other one from each room.  With the volume set appropriately, once you're in the rooms where the music is playing, you can't hear the remote systems at all.

So, that works quite nicely.

By the way, I didn't have a long run and I was using outputs from the amp in my Living Room, so I just ran it using some speaker cable from Monoprice.  However, I also helped with a setup at a friend's house, and we used some nice Cat6 Baluns instead, and I just had to run a Cat6 line (we used shielded Cat6, though you probably didn't have to for stereo audio).

In any case, I suspect with this kind of setup, less is more.  If you're trying to do it with fancy DACs and whatnot... Well, YMMV.

I don't care very much about super-high-quality audio when I'm doing this.  That's what the other zones are for.

[mwillems]

I use it quite a bit in my house and it has been fine for multi-room audio.  It may depend on what kind of fancy stuff you're using.  On mine for the multi-room setup, I'm just using junky Realtek onboard analog outs, and that works perfectly well for my needs.

The speakers aren't in the same room, though it is an "open floor plan" and I don't notice a serious echo.

But, again, it might depend on your tolerance for this, and how close the rooms are to one another.  In my case, when I'm doing it, they're far enough separated that you can "only barely hear" (enough to make out lyrics, not enough to call it music) the other one from each room.

In any case, I suspect with this kind of setup, less is more.  If you're trying to do it with fancy DACs and whatnot... Well, YMMV.

I don't care very much about super-high-quality audio when I'm doing this.  That's what the other zones are for.

I've tried a few different setups, some fancier than others, but my current kitchen playback solution is definitely not "fancy": it's the built in speakers on a Samsung TV    My main observation is that the drift seems to be relatively similar for me regardless of what I tried hooking up (nice or not nice), which is how I wound up back at the TV speakers in the kitchen.  Wired is noticeably better than networked though.

I think the issue in my setup is that two of my rooms are directly adjacent, and the sound sources are only about 15 feet apart only partially separated by a wall.  The echo doesn't bug me too much when I sit in one place in one of the rooms, but when I'm doing chores and moving around between the rooms (which is often why I set up the sync) the echo can get a little distracting/wacky on long songs.  

I definitely think the function is pretty good as is, and I use it regularly with enjoyment (I don't mean to talk it down); I just didn't want OP run out and wire up his house thinking he'd be able to entirely get rid of the problem  

[glynor]

Yeah.  I'd probably agree with that assessment.  Mine are more like 25 feet away from one another, and around a corner.  There are no full walls between the two rooms (it is a kitchen and a living room, separated by a dining room).

If I stand directly at the midpoint between the two (on the edge of the dining room), I can often hear that they're a bit out of phase and echo-y.  But, basically everywhere else it is fine.

Of course, when I use it, there is almost always alcohol involved, so YMMV.