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Author Topic: Date Created of audio files always similar to Date Modified...or after  (Read 16320 times)

arin

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Is it just me or there's a problem with the Creation Date field in MC for Mac?
It always reflects exactly the content of the Modification Date field and not the actual creation date of the file.
In MC Windows with the same files on the same hard drive it works perfectly well...

Any suggestion?
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JohnT

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Re: Creation Date of audio files always identical to Modification Date
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2014, 08:49:08 am »

I'm not seeing this.  When I change a file tag, the modification date changes to today's date and the creation date stays the same.
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John Thompson, JRiver Media Center

arin

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Re: Creation Date of audio files always identical to Modification Date
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2014, 05:52:01 am »

Hi John,
sorry maybe I named the wrong fields: I was meaning Date Created and Date Modified fields.
Some time back I already wrote in the forum that both the Mac and the Win version of MC changed the Date Created field whenever I changed a tag that was set to be written on the file itself.
Now I've noticed that while MC Win in the Date Created field it reports exactly the creation date of the file, MC Mac in the same field reports sometime the modification date and sometimes a date after the modification one, which is a bit strange.

Is there any setting somewhere that I'm missing?


ps: I updated the title subject to get the right feedback  ;)
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JohnT

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Looking through my tracks, I do see some with Modified dates previous to the creation date.  I'll see if I can reproduce how it happens and fix the problem. Thanks for the report.
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John Thompson, JRiver Media Center

arin

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Thank you very much John.
For the record, I checked the real creation date in the Finder for the files and of course it doesn't correspond to what the Date Created field in MC reports.

Would you also confirm that when you edit a tag that is meant to be written in the file, the creation date in the Finder doesn't change for you?
Because in my case it changes to exactly reflect the modification date.

Thanx again for your attention!
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mwheelerk

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I've noticed this also. Being new(er) to MC I first assumed that the Date Created was the date that was first imported rather than the actual creation date of the file which is what I would like to see. Subsequently after changing metadata or adding metadata fields the Date Imported and Date Modified fields tend to be the same.

As an example for the file that is now playing I see:

Date Imported: 9/28/2013 - this was the first date I imported my library to MC19
Date Created: 5/10/2014
Date Modified: 5/10/21014 - this is within the time frame I activated the Analyze Audio features which added the appropriate metadata

Taking a sample of different files from different albums the Date Created and Date Modified fields remain the same as above but I am seeing a second Date Imported of 3/27/2014 for files that I know were in my library upon initial import.

On an album that I know I imported the files recently all three dates are the same 5/13/2014 which makes sense since.

Checking one album I ripped after 3/27/2014 but before 5/10/2014 I get the following:

DATE IMPORTED:  4/12/2014 - this is the day I ripped it and imported it
DATE CREATED: 5/10/2014 - again this is the date I began using Analyze Audio
DATE MODIFIED: 5/10/2014

As I said earlier I had not pursued this thinking it was simply my lack of understanding what these dates were supposed to reflect.

I hope this might help the analysis. Thanks for taking a look at it.
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Believe In Music GR MI 1973 - 2002

mwheelerk

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Any update on this issue as to whether this is a bug to be resolved or is the information being shown correct for JRiver?

Thanks
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Believe In Music GR MI 1973 - 2002

JohnT

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Yes, I've been able to replicate and it will be fixed in the next build of MC Mac.  Thanks for the reports.
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John Thompson, JRiver Media Center

arin

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Thank you John,
very good news!

Do you think the next build will also address the change of creation date when changing tags?
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mwheelerk

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Thanks very much.
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Believe In Music GR MI 1973 - 2002

mwheelerk

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Has this problem been identified and is a fix in the works?
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Believe In Music GR MI 1973 - 2002

6233638

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Has this problem been identified and is a fix in the works?
A few posts up, John says that it will be included in the next Mac update.
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mwheelerk

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A few posts up, John says that it will be included in the next Mac update.

My bad, I took that as a version fix and not as part of the next build.
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Believe In Music GR MI 1973 - 2002

mwheelerk

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This does not appear to be addressed in the latest release.
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Believe In Music GR MI 1973 - 2002

JimH

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Please post a link to this thread and a quick description in the thread that announced the release.  It's less likely to be missed that way.
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mwheelerk

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Yes, I've been able to replicate and it will be fixed in the next build of MC Mac.  Thanks for the reports.

I thought this was it
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Believe In Music GR MI 1973 - 2002

adamt

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This does not appear to be addressed in the latest release.

I'm noticing this only with certain file types.  Are your songs in .m4a format?  For some reason, editing the tags of an .m4a file makes the system change it's "created" date.  Other formats such as FLAC updated their "modified" date correctly instead.  Are you still finding files where the system's created date is different from MC's created date?
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Adam Thompson, JRiver

mwheelerk

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I'm noticing this only with certain file types.  Are your songs in .m4a format?  For some reason, editing the tags of an .m4a file makes the system change it's "created" date.  Other formats such as FLAC updated their "modified" date correctly instead.  Are you still finding files where the system's created date is different from MC's created date?

All of my files are AIFF. I just looked at several files again. As an example from David Bowie Hunky Dory and Song For Bob Dylan I see the following:

Date Imported: 9/28/13 - that is the original date I imported files to JRiver
Date Created: 5/10/2014 - this is the date I first used the Audio Analysis tools
Date Modified: 6/30/2014 - I do not know what was done to generate this date

I have similar readings on different files I sampled that I know were created on dates other than 5/10/2014.   I see various Date Imported some of which I don't understand because I know they were part of my original import in September. The Date Modified on many of those just sampled is 5/10/2014 the same as the Date Created and as I mentioned the date I first used the Audio Analysis tools on my files.

Other than this anomaly everything seems to work fine. I would very much like to have the correct dates and do expect the majority of the library to show the 9/28/13 Date Imported and the 5/10/2014 Date Modified so it is the Date Created that seems to be at issue and at least for me triggered by the Audio Analysis tool usage.

Thanks
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Believe In Music GR MI 1973 - 2002

adamt

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The [Date Created] field was being filled incorrectly on Mac.  This has been fixed and will be in the next build (coming soon).  One thing to keep in mind is that in regards to certain file types, tag changes require rebuilding the file.  This will cause both the [date created] and [date modified] dates to change.  Now though, MC will reflect exactly what the operating system says. 

Thanks for your help!
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Adam Thompson, JRiver

mwheelerk

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The [Date Created] field was being filled incorrectly on Mac.  This has been fixed and will be in the next build (coming soon).  One thing to keep in mind is that in regards to certain file types, tag changes require rebuilding the file.  This will cause both the [date created] and [date modified] dates to change.  Now though, MC will reflect exactly what the operating system says. 

Thanks for your help!

As soon as that change is available I will update and report back on my results.
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Believe In Music GR MI 1973 - 2002

arin

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…One thing to keep in mind is that in regards to certain file types, tag changes require rebuilding the file.  This will cause both the [date created] and [date modified] dates to change

My audio files are mainly m4a and that's why I soon noticed this kind of problem on Mac.
But, as the creation date of the files are important to me as I use it for other purposes outside the MC environment, couldn't MC be instructed to report that date in the creation file field again when any tag changes rebuild the file?
Or I'm asking for an impossible thing?

Thank you for your support!
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Fred1

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I had the same problem with m4a files.
That's why i made a custom field which was initially filled with the creation date.

I reported the problem about a year ago with no success.
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mwheelerk

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I have updated to the latest .152 but in random check of files nothing has changed for the created date. It's still the same date as when I originally initiated Audio Analysis.
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Believe In Music GR MI 1973 - 2002

adamt

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I have updated to the latest .152 but in random check of files nothing has changed for the created date. It's still the same date as when I originally initiated Audio Analysis.

Did you use "Update Library (from tags)"?
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Adam Thompson, JRiver

glynor

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But, as the creation date of the files are important to me as I use it for other purposes outside the MC environment, couldn't MC be instructed to report that date in the creation file field again when any tag changes rebuild the file?
Or I'm asking for an impossible thing?

I'm not 100% sure I understand what you're asking for here, but...

If MC re-writes the entire file, which is required for some container formats, then as far as OSX is concerned, it IS a brand new file.  MC doesn't directly set the Created or Modified Dates on the Filesystem.  That's handled by the filesystem and the OS.

If what you're asking for is for MC to "cheat" and manually change the filesystem Date Created to match its own database, then I don't know if this would be allowed, but it would certainly be "bad practice".  The filesystem dates should remain accurate for what they are in almost all cases (except when restoring from backup).

If you're asking for MC to track, internally, the original Date Created, regardless of what the filesystem says, then I think the best solution for this is to create a custom "Original Date" field and copy the information from the files to that field when they're imported (Tag on Import can automate this).  MC's internal [Date Created] and [Date Modified] should always reflect the same date as is reported by the filesystem.
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mwheelerk

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Did you use "Update Library (from tags)"?

I just tried a couple of albums where I selected all songs within the album and went Tools>Library Tools>Update Tags (From Library). Date Created remains 5/10/14 as before in JRiver. Following Finder to my Music Folder and the album I selected the Created reads 3/22/12 and Modified and Last Opened shows Today, 5:11 PM which is the time I did the Update Tags Action.
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Believe In Music GR MI 1973 - 2002

glynor

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I just tried a couple of albums where I selected all songs within the album and went Tools>Library Tools>Update Tags (From Library).

That wasn't what they said to do.  You did it backwards.

Did you use "Update Library (from tags)"?

You did:

Tools>Library Tools>Update Tags (From Library).

Those are not the same thing.

The former tells MC to update itself (the Library) to match the files on disk (which is what you need).
The latter tells MC to update the files on disk to match the Library (which is not what you need).

In this case, it won't have hurt anything (because MC doesn't manage the date created, only reads it from the OS), but it won't help either.  In general, if the data in MC's Library ever gets "out of sync" with what you have on disk, the solution is to select the files and Right Click > Library Tools > Update Library (from Tags).
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mwheelerk

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That wasn't what they said to do.  You did it backwards.

You did:

Those are not the same thing.

The former tells MC to update itself (the Library) to match the files on disk (which is what you need).
The latter tells MC to update the files on disk to match the Library (which is not what you need).

In this case, it won't have hurt anything (because MC doesn't manage the date created, only reads it from the OS), but it won't help either.  In general, if the data in MC's Library ever gets "out of sync" with what you have on disk, the solution is to select the files and Right Click > Library Tools > Update Library (from Tags).

I apologize but I'm now really confused.  The first way didn't show any changes to Date Created. The second changed Date Created to today's date.
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Believe In Music GR MI 1973 - 2002

adamt

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Try this:

1. Find a file in MC that might have the wrong created date. Make note of this date.
2. Find the same file in your Finder.  Compare the date the Finder says the file was created to what MC reads.
3. If they're different, go back into MC, select the file, and click [Tools > Library Tools > Update Library (from tags)].
4. If you're running the latest build, MC should now show the same creation date as finder.  It works here, but let me know if there are still problems.

Thanks.
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Adam Thompson, JRiver

mwheelerk

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Try this:

1. Find a file in MC that might have the wrong created date. Make note of this date.
2. Find the same file in your Finder.  Compare the date the Finder says the file was created to what MC reads.
3. If they're different, go back into MC, select the file, and click [Tools > Library Tools > Update Library (from tags)].
4. If you're running the latest build, MC should now show the same creation date as finder.  It works here, but let me know if there are still problems.

Thanks.

I appreciate you trying to help.

I opened the first file I tried this with yesterday.

10,000 Maniacs
In My Tribe
What's The Matter Here

In MC in my Panes view with Date Created showing

7/22/14

This is the date it got yesterday when I tried the first sequence I did. Previously this date read 5/10/14 as about 95% of my library reads

Going to Finder>Music>10,000 Maniacs>In My Tribe>What's The Matter Here

Created 3/22/12

That is the correct created date.

I've done as you instructed which is I thought was the first thing I tried yesterday. Date created still shows 7/22/14.

I am selecting another entire album where the Date Created reads 5/10/14. It says 10 files have been updated, "no errors". The Date Created remains 5/10/14.  Following Finder the Created is 11/25/11.

I'm perplexed.
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Believe In Music GR MI 1973 - 2002

adamt

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And you're 100% sure you've selected "Update library (from tags)" and NOT "Update tags (from library)"?  What you're describing sounds like the behavior I might expect from "Update tags (from library)".  I simply can't reproduce the problem at all. 
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Adam Thompson, JRiver

glynor

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Either can I.

Assuming you're sure you've used the proper Update tool, can you post some screenshots?  I also wonder if you're looking at a different field than [Date Created] inside MC...
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arin

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I'm not 100% sure I understand what you're asking for here, but...

If MC re-writes the entire file, which is required for some container formats, then as far as OSX is concerned, it IS a brand new file.  MC doesn't directly set the Created or Modified Dates on the Filesystem.  That's handled by the filesystem and the OS.

If what you're asking for is for MC to "cheat" and manually change the filesystem Date Created to match its own database, then I don't know if this would be allowed, but it would certainly be "bad practice".  The filesystem dates should remain accurate for what they are in almost all cases (except when restoring from backup).

If you're asking for MC to track, internally, the original Date Created, regardless of what the filesystem says, then I think the best solution for this is to create a custom "Original Date" field and copy the information from the files to that field when they're imported (Tag on Import can automate this).  MC's internal [Date Created] and [Date Modified] should always reflect the same date as is reported by the filesystem.

I know you're right Glynor.
And that's why I'm avoiding to let MC to write certain tags in the files as I'm using only ALACs.
I created a custom field to make MC remember the original Date Created some time ago, just in case… But up till now I was able to use it only in MC Windows as on the Mac there was this bug…
But, as I explained, I need the original Date Created 'cause I use my audio files also in other applications (and in the Finder as well!) and as long I'm still using those I will let MC to update some fields only within its library to avoid it recreating the files.

Thank you anyway for your attention!
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mwheelerk

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Oh geez. How could one person be so confused so many times. The first time I tried it again finally using the correct Update Library (from tags), which I thought I had done, the corrections occurred. Feeling a little stupid at the moment Nd appreciate the help and patience.

Is there a way to bulk process these changes and if I select all and do so is there any problem doing 20,000+ changes?
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Believe In Music GR MI 1973 - 2002

glynor

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Is there a way to bulk process these changes and if I select all and do so is there any problem doing 20,000+ changes?

EDIT: Make a Library Backup first, so that you don't have to care if it borks up and can just restore.

EDIT AGAIN: One thing you MAY want to do is first flush your current data to disk by doing the other Update tool first (the one you kept doing by accident).  Of course, this does nothing if you have Tag Saving disabled, so if that's the case, then nevermind.  With tag saving on, though, that ensures that the data in MC is "the truth" and that bad tags in the files won't overwrite the "good" data in your Library when you do the next step.

Go to a view that shows all files. Control-A. Do it.

Drink a beer as it'll take a while, though I think it is non-blocking, even though there is a pop up dialog.
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mwheelerk

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It took 30 minutes. Thanks all for the help...and patience!
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Believe In Music GR MI 1973 - 2002

glynor

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It took 30 minutes. Thanks all for the help...and patience!

Awesome.

Don't worry about it.  I've pulled some doozies like that in my time.  Sometimes you look but you don't see, you know?
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mwheelerk

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Awesome.

Don't worry about it.  I've pulled some doozies like that in my time.  Sometimes you look but you don't see, you know?

That's exactly right.
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Believe In Music GR MI 1973 - 2002
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