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[sdas]

Dear Friends,
Tis is a brief description of what has happened to me. Media Center 19 for mac, loaded on a new MacBook Pro with SSD. 8 GB Ram and the usual configuration. My entire library is on a WD 2 TB external hard drive. This HDD has about 50,000 Flac songs with bot rate ranging from 16bits to 32bits and sampling frequency from 44.1 to 192.  A lot of music has been bought from HD tracks in Flac format. Operating system is Maverick.(10.9.4) I created a new library pointing the file to remain in the HDD and only the metadata will populate the MC19. The HDD is always connected via USB during playback.
Here's what happened. The MC19 world well for 2 days and then today when I tried to open the MC19, it opened but without any trace of any files. Everything was deleted. Not only that, every single data on my computer was also deleted. absolutely everything, including the contacts, the cal ended, the bookmarks and history on safari, mail etc. Everything was gone.
Can anybody tell me what happened.
Rgds,
Subhankar Das
Mumbai, India

[Matt]

I have no idea what deleted your stuff.  But Media Center makes automatic library backups, so check if there's one of those.

[FantasticoGrande]

I had a similar problem. It happened twice.
Started with Media Center .144.
System 10.9.4. MacPro 2.8 Quad Core/16GB memory

Media Center Crashed, beach ball spinning but was still playing music.
Then music got herky jerky and I hear main hard drive spinning.
Force quit Media Center. Finder stops working. Restart computer and most of my user library is deleted.
So I recover files from my back up drive. And all is good until it happens again the next day–this time with many more files deleted.
So I did a complete recover of my main hard drive and so far everything is fine again.

So something is or was messed up with .144.

[sdas]

I have no idea what deleted your stuff.  But Media Center makes automatic library backups, so check if there's one of those.

Even the MC library was deleted.

[sdas]

I had a similar problem. It happened twice.
Started with Media Center .144.
System 10.9.4. MacPro 2.8 Quad Core/16GB memory

Media Center Crashed, beach ball spinning but was still playing music.
Then music got herky jerky and I hear main hard drive spinning.
Force quit Media Center. Finder stops working. Restart computer and most of my user library is deleted.
So I recover files from my back up drive. And all is good until it happens again the next day–this time with many more files deleted.
So I did a complete recover of my main hard drive and so far everything is fine again.

So something is or was messed up with .144.

Hi, Thanks for the heads-up. I started using MC from 17 onwards, then 18 and now 19. I have 3 macs. I have installed over the years 17/18 and 19 in all of them. Never had an issue. The last update in 19 was .131 and after that I did the .144 And all hell broke loose. I have had to completely wipe out my computer, reinstall Mavericks and then load .144 again. This was yesterday. I am using this again today. Let's see what happens.
On the funny side, I thought (and still think) that I have some hardware issues (SSD). I had called the Apple Helpline. I went thru 3 levels of technical geniuses in Apple and they couldn't figure it out. They sent me a capture file to study what happened. Who say's the Apple guys knows everything?
Jokes apart, I request the JRiver guys to at least look into a possibility that .144 could be doing this.

[JohnT]

... I created a new library pointing the file to remain in the HDD and only the metadata will populate the MC19...

Can you explain in more detail what you mean by this?  Maybe a list of steps that we could take to try to reproduce the issue.  Thanks.

[sdas]

Hi JohnT,
I will try my best to explain. To begin with, the system.
Macbook pro, 15" mid2013, i7(2.4GHz), 8GB Ram, 256GB SSD
External HDD: 2TB Western Digital (I do not store my music files in the computer. All the files exist in the WD HDD. In the MC19 while configuring auto-import i choose the WD HDD) (Add the folder which you would like the program to watch in the auto-import. then i add the external wd hdd for the file location. MC19 then imports from there. However the physical files remain in the external HDD, only the metadata gets created in the MC19 per track - Hope this explains what I had tried to convey earlier)
Wireless: Airport Extreme

Recreating the steps to the current problem:
1. Downloaded Mavericks OS X 10.9.4 (This was the first time. I did not re-format my SSD (Macintosh HD) as it was not necessary. I simply downloaded the new upgrade)
2. Download successful, all my applications and files intact.
3. JRiver, MC19 was .131 version. I thought that I should upgrade to the newest version as well. As a rule, I always upgrade to a newer version of MC whenever available.
4. Upgrade to MC19.144 successful. Successful restore of the license. All good to go.
5. Next step is to configure auto-import.
6. Auto-import configured successfully (to the external HDD as explained above)
7. Takes about 30 mins to complete 45,000 Flac tracks, including building thumbnails and matching for external changes (Additional processes available while auto-import. I do not check the analyse audio as it take too much time)
8. MC19 ready for playback.
9. Hardware used for playback: External DAC (RME Babyface (audio interface) and EVE Audio Active monitors SC-208)
10. Configure the MC19.144 in options. Audio Device (RME Babyface), playback from memory (I always prefer this). At this point I do not select INTEGER MODE (even though I am using 10.9 and the Babyface accepts integer mode.) However, subsequently I do select it to see if I am hearing any difference. I did not have any issues with or without the INTEGER mode.
11. Playback commences, so far so good. No problems at all. Played back for an hour or so. Absolutely no issues.
12. Switched off the computer.
13. Next Day: Switched it on again. No issues - End of Day- Shut down as usual.
14. Another day later: Switched on: Let me give details of switching on: Computer on Battery power, switch on, computer boots up, all systems go. Open MC19.144, it opens up fine, I start playback, plays fine. Halfway during the song, I switch tracks (simply by double clicking on another track. It simply stops playing the current track and starts playing the new one). Here is where the whole trouble starts.
15. MC19.144 displays a box saying that something went wrong with the playback and that the file can't be found. And the MC19.144 hangs.
16. I wait for almost 10 minutes for the machine to clear up. I have experienced this in the past. If it hang, I simply don't do anything, after a few minutes, it starts on its own.
17. 10 mins later, I realise that I will have to perform a force quit. I do so, and restart the MC19.144
18. MC19.144 open up totally blank. From 45,000 tracks complete with all metadata, cover art etc to ZERO TRACKS.
19. I try to recover library, I perform restore library. It tells me I do not have a library. I check Finder. Library folder exists, but with nothing inside.
20. I shut down computer, restart
21. Open MC19.144 - Same result - absolutely nothing. At this stage I notice other things:
documents folder, contacts, notes, keychain, calendar, all wiped out clean. all bookmarks, all system preferences wiped clean, all passwords gone, in fact on restarting the computer again Mavericks asked me to create an account for the computer (something i did when i first bought the computer) iTunes passwords etc all gone. Right now, I am writing all this in the cleanest computer ever.)
22. What remained surprisingly was all the applications including MC19.144 were intact except that they all had lost their licenses. If you can, check how many times I reinstalled my license in the past 3 days.
23. I suspect the SDD on my computer. This is the first time I had used an SDD. I have 3 other macs (macbook pro, iMac and a mac mini - all with HDD)
24. I call up apple technical assistance. It's been a week that I have been interacting with them, no results. They have referred the problem to Steve Jobs (apparently). anyway, I am still waiting for an answer from them. IN the meanwhile, they send me a software called CAPTURE, I run the program and send them all the info they require. This entire drama is still to come to its conclusion.
25. At this point I decide to ask my fellow MC19 users if they have faced similar problems. One of the replies surprised me. Different problem, similar results.
26. Yesterday,17th July 2014, I gave up on my new mac and returned back to ma old mac with HDD.
27. Once bitten twice shy, first I took a time machine back up of my old computer.
28. Then I reformatted the entire HDD.
29. Then I downloaded Mavericks (it was already on mavericks) and set up the old computer. Installed all my applications including the MC19.144
30. Used the same external HDD. But first, I used disk utilities to verify disk (good), then I checked it for virus (clean my mac software) Once I was sure the external HDD is OK, performed Auto import etc on the old mac.
31. All systems go.
32. Start playback - plays back, switch track and BOOOOM
33. My old computer is clean as a whistle. THANK GOD FOR TIME MACHINE.

To the JRiver technical team, here are my conclusions:
1. I think I have sent the Apple guys on a wild goose chase. There's nothing wrong with my computer.
2. The problem is either with Maverick or MC19.144 or both.

Remember, I also have a mac mini using the same WD HDD. That one still runs on Mountain Lion and with MC19.131 (Thank God, for some strange, I did not upgrade them yet) The mac mini with the lion and the .131 still works like a charm. By the way till upgrade number 19.131 there was no issue on the Maverick computers.

If you guys need any more info, please ask. I will reply instantly.

Regards,
Subhankar Das
Mumbai, India

[sdas]

Can you explain in more detail what you mean by this?  Maybe a list of steps that we could take to try to reproduce the issue.  Thanks.

In addition to the earlier epic long description, here's more. Enjoy

I have un-installed MC19.141 and re-installed MC19.131. I have followed the exact same pattern as before. So far so good. Will notify if this one goes BOOM too.

[sstyle]

All the same. App delete all music library, and mac os keychain!!!!....Today was my first installation this app.

Steps:
1) Install .144 version
2) Setup auto-import in library from NAS
3) Listen music
4) Music stops playing, app freeze.
5) Twitterific tells me that is can not get access to keychain
6) anoter apps too.
7) restarting macbook
stock wallpaper. All apps logout. System settings changed to default
9) restore macbook from TimeMachine
10) Install .144v again
11) Listen...freeze...keychain lost.

So, app delete a lot of files from ~/User/Library

[JohnT]

Hi JohnT,
I will try my best to explain. To begin with, the system. ...

All the same. ...

Thanks for the detailed explanations and sorry for the problems.  We are searching for possible explanations for what you're experiencing.
 
A few questions:

1. It sounds like MC froze twice while switching tracks, was the next track the same each time (or similar format, etc.)?  
2. Did you enter any custom file locations in Options / File Locations (like cover art location, library location, backup location, temporary directory,  audio location, etc.)?
3. What is the path you entered for auto-import of your music files on the external drive? (for example, mine is "/Volumes/Media2/Music/")
4. In auto-import, did you change any of the options from the default setting, such as "analyze audio", "build thumbnails", "fix broken links", "write file tags", etc.

Thanks.

[glynor]

For the record, that sounds very much like HFS+ blew itself up.

[JohnAV]

For the record, that sounds very much like HFS+ blew itself up.

That just comes across as a very dumb statement IMHO   All of us that use Mac's don't encounter any applications that wipe out the contents of a directory because of journaled unix file structure. 

[glynor]

That just comes across as a very dumb statement IMHO   All of us that use Mac's don't encounter any applications that wipe out the contents of a directory because of journaled unix file structure.  

I'm an Apple Certified Tech, and I help manage a fleet of around 1000 different Macs, in addition to being a heavy user myself.

HFS+ (which has nothing to do with the Unix file structure, and very little to do with journaling, as HFS itself predates both) is WELL KNOWN for having serious problems that can corrupt the filesystem and cause sudden and substantial data loss.

All you have to do to learn about it is read any OSX review written by John Siracusa.  I've seen it a TON, professionally and personally over the years.  Sometimes HFS+ borks itself.

It happened to Marco Arment recently:
https://twitter.com/marcoarment/status/477113420962336768
https://twitter.com/marcoarment/status/485799109408718849

As he explained in ATP, the SSD in his Mac Pro is fine.  It just ate itself, because the filesystem is terrible.

[glynor]

To be clear, I'm not saying one way or the other what might have caused this issue.  But I do know that, technically, it would be nearly impossible for MC to cause an issue as is described here, even intentionally.

Applications simply don't have the power to overwrite certain things in-use by other processes.

If the whole drive was screwed up, that sounds like HFS+ problems.  Without having the system in hand and being able to look at the diagnosis tools, I cannot say for sure.

But I'm very, very skeptical that (not just MC) ANY client application could cause the issues described.  And I have seen things like described a bunch of times, on a variety of devices over the years (Time Machines seem to be particularly adept at borking themselves, for example).  On any Mac, if you ever have a sudden shutdown (due to power failure, kernel panic, or anything else) and you don't do fsck -fy immediately afterwards, you're asking for it.  Sometimes, they just do it anyway, though, seemingly at random.

The truth is, that HFS was designed for an entirely different era of storage, when total capacities were measured in KB.  It is very, very long in the tooth.  They've made some improvements over the years, like Journaling for example, but it has some fundamental issues that can't be (easily) incrementally improved.

[glynor]

Links for your knowledge improvement:

http://blog.barthe.ph/2014/06/10/hfs-plus-bit-rot/
http://5by5.tv/hypercritical/56-belt-and-suspenders
http://arstechnica.com/staff/2006/08/4995/
http://arstechnica.com/apple/2011/07/mac-os-x-10-7/12/
http://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/10347/why-have-5-different-imacs-developed-corrupt-os-x-partitions-when-the-physical-d
http://www.jinx.de/zfs/hfsfailure.html#slide-1
http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/01/bitrot-and-atomic-cows-inside-next-gen-filesystems

[JohnAV]

I'm an Apple Certified Tech, and I help manage a fleet of around 1000 different Macs, in addition to being a heavy user myself.

HFS+ (which has nothing to do with the Unix file structure, and very little to do with journaling, as HFS itself predates both) is WELL KNOWN for having serious problems that can corrupt the filesystem and cause sudden and substantial data loss.

All you have to do to learn about it is read any OSX review written by John Siracusa.  I've seen it a TON, professionally and personally over the years.  Sometimes HFS+ borks itself.

It happened to Marco Arment recently:
https://twitter.com/marcoarment/status/477113420962336768
https://twitter.com/marcoarment/status/485799109408718849

As he explained in ATP, the SSD in his Mac Pro is fine.  It just ate itself, because the filesystem is terrible.

Guess we could say stuff happens with any OS platform, certainly can tell you lots of horror stories about NTFS running a simple error check with chkdsk, deleting a 20 GB .pst file, oh look your NTFS file structure is OK but all your email is gone.   
Still with all disk file structure problem we encounter the above excellent write up of how this user encountered the problem just sounded a bit more like a software failure then corrupted HFS+.   Thats all I am saying.   BTW at one time I was involved with 3000 macs before got bumped to NTFS house but thats the ways things go when business reduce overhead. 

[glynor]

NTFS is only slightly better.

At least it allows simultaneous access to the filesystem and doesn't lock the whole filesystem every time any process accesses any file on any disk (like HFS+ does).  But none of the popular fileystems in widespread consumer use right now are very good.  NTFS is probably the best of them, but only by a slight bit.  None of them do ANYTHING to protect your data.  At all.  Journaling does NOT protect user data on disk.  It only protects the filesystem metadata (and on HFS+ does so somewhat incompetently).  None of the "common" filesystems do any kind of actual data integrity checking or validation.

I'm with Siracusa.  I really, really, really hope Apple fixes the problem.  We were so close when they announced (and published) ZFS support as a feature for Lion.  Unfortunately, it wasn't to be (I think for performance reasons, but it is still unclear).

Hopefully they're working on it in the basement in Cupertino somewhere.  I suspect they are.

[sdas]

Guys, English please. The last part of the discussion went over my head. I still don't know, what I did wrong. By the way, 2nd day of using MC19.131, not trouble yet. Will keep posting results.

[sdas]

Thanks for the detailed explanations and sorry for the problems.  We are searching for possible explanations for what you're experiencing.
 
A few questions:

1. It sounds like MC froze twice while switching tracks, was the next track the same each time (or similar format, etc.)?  it was completely random switching. I have 2 lossless formats. FLAC and Apple Lossless.
2. Did you enter any custom file locations in Options / File Locations (like cover art location, library location, backup location, temporary directory,  audio location, etc.)?NO
3. What is the path you entered for auto-import of your music files on the external drive? (for example, mine is "/Volumes/Media2/Music/")Volumes/subhankardas/music/artist folder/track
4. In auto-import, did you change any of the options from the default setting, such as "analyze audio", "build thumbnails", "fix broken links", "write file tags", etc.yes, I always check build thumbnails but not analyse audio. I always check fix broken links.

Thanks.

[sstyle]

Thanks for the detailed explanations and sorry for the problems.  We are searching for possible explanations for what you're experiencing.
 
A few questions:

1. It sounds like MC froze twice while switching tracks, was the next track the same each time (or similar format, etc.)?  
2. Did you enter any custom file locations in Options / File Locations (like cover art location, library location, backup location, temporary directory,  audio location, etc.)?
3. What is the path you entered for auto-import of your music files on the external drive? (for example, mine is "/Volumes/Media2/Music/")
4. In auto-import, did you change any of the options from the default setting, such as "analyze audio", "build thumbnails", "fix broken links", "write file tags", etc.

Thanks.

1. First froze - music stops playing, second - I manually pause music and app just launched
2. No
3. Synology NAS. So I connect to it and select its folder. I still try to restore the MacBook because it was damaged backup. I can not see a path. UPD: /Volumes/transmission/download/MUSIC/
4. Select only build thumbnails

[magjac]

Hi Guys,

Both with mediacenter 19 and 20 I have exactly the same problems (now on Yosemite, previously on Mavericks). Mediacenter continuously blow my keychain and other stuff up. Same behaviour. Suddenly music stops playing and everything stops working. I've reinstalled my MBP at least 10-15 times. Most of the re-installs from scratch, since I thought it was OSX that blew up. Since I found out that the problem is connected with mediacenter, I just restore from timemachine.. It's a lot faster not re-installing everything every time. Quite annoying though. Mediacenter just needs to run for a couple of hours and then - bang.

Has anybody heard any news about this problem since the original post?

:-(

[JimH]

These could be OS or hardware problems.  I can't imagine how MC could obliterate your machine.

[magjac]

Hi,

I would tend to agree, but it never happens when I don't use MC. After a couple of hours with MC, it usually happens.

/Magnus

[JimH]

MC may just do something that triggers the problem.