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[daveman]

HI there,

I am finally at the point of setting up an HTPC for my theatre (I currently use a WDTV Live Hub)

I would love your thoughts regarding the proposed setup from newegg.ca

Intel NUC BOXD54250WYKH1 2 Intel HD Graphics 5000 Mini / Booksize Barebone System
Item #:N82E16856102055

    Intel Core i5-4250U
    Intel HD 5000 Series Graphics
    support 2.5-inch drives
http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16856102055&cm_re=BOXD54250WYKH1-_-56-102-055-_-Product

Crucial Ballistix Sport 16GB (2 x 8G) 204-Pin DDR3 SO-DIMM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800) Laptop Memory
Item #:N82E16820148730
http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16820148730

Crucial M500 CT480M500SSD3 MLC Internal Solid State Drive (SSD)
480GB
http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16820148699

Microsoft Windows 8.1 64-bit - OEM

The system will use the MC library from my main home computer and connect to a 12TB server in my home which contains all the media.  All my other computers in thew home use Windows 7.  Will there be any issues if this one uses Windows 8.1?

thoughts?

I am hoping to purchase in the next few days

dave

[mwillems]

HI there,

I am finally at the point of setting up an HTPC for my theatre (I currently use a WDTV Live Hub)

I would love your thoughts regarding the proposed setup from newegg.ca

Intel NUC BOXD54250WYKH1 2 Intel HD Graphics 5000 Mini / Booksize Barebone System
Item #:N82E16856102055

    Intel Core i5-4250U
    Intel HD 5000 Series Graphics
    support 2.5-inch drives
http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16856102055&cm_re=BOXD54250WYKH1-_-56-102-055-_-Product

Crucial Ballistix Sport 16GB (2 x 8G) 204-Pin DDR3 SO-DIMM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800) Laptop Memory
Item #:N82E16820148730
http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16820148730

Crucial M500 CT480M500SSD3 MLC Internal Solid State Drive (SSD)
480GB
http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16820148699

Microsoft Windows 8.1 64-bit - OEM

The system will use the MC library from my main home computer and connect to a 12TB server in my home which contains all the media.  All my other computers in thew home use Windows 7.  Will there be any issues if this one uses Windows 8.1?

thoughts?

I am hoping to purchase in the next few days

dave

I have a very similar device running in my house as a secondary HTPC.  It's the same model NUC, but with 8gb of ram and a smaller samsung evo ssd (256GB).  My NUC is running windows 8.1, and I've had no problems connecting to my MC server on Windows 7.  

I'm very happy with the NUC for what it is, but I'll offer a few observations about my experience with it so far:

Pros:

1) Fast and fairly responsive

2) Can run Red October HQ (MadVR) on relatively high settings with non-interlaced content

3) Can play some video games

4) Very low power consumption: draws about eight or nine watts at idle, around fifteen to twenty under load, and less than a watt when sleeping (s3).  This is as measured by consumer Kill-A-Watt device not a multi-meter, so it may be off a bit, but should give you an order of magnitude.

5) Very small and can be mounted on the back of a television to conceal wires.

6) Motherboard Wake on LAN support is good* (* but see some potential wi-fi related cons below)

7) Integrated IR remote function worked great for me, and the remote can actually wake the PC from a complete power off state, which is neat.  To be clear, I'm not talking about waking from hibernation (s4 or s5); the IR input actually seems to be able to wake the NUC when it's been shut all the way down by windows and powered off. I have been unable to get similar results with Wake on LAN, the cold-wake function seems limited to the IR input.  I should note that one other forum user did have some issues with his IR receiver (earlier this year) on a similar NUC model, so YMMV.

Cons:

1) The integrated graphics seems to have real problems using high quality settings on Red October HQ with interlaced content.  I had to set MadVR to use DXVA to get acceptable performance with interlaced content.

2) All USB ports are USB 3 ports.  That may sound like a pro, but USB 3 ports give off interference that can cause problems with devices that use the 2.4 GHz band (bluetooth devices and wifi devices).  See this intel white paper on the subject: http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/io/universal-serial-bus/usb3-frequency-interference-paper.html.  In my case, plugging a logitech bluetooth keyboard/mouse receiver directly into a NUC USB port resulted in either no keyboard function at all, or dropped keystrokes and extreme mouse lag.  Plugging the same bluetooth receiver into a USB extension cable plugged into the exact same USB-3 port resulted in good keyboard and mouse function, because it pushed the bluetooth receiver six inches away from the source of the interference.  The keyboard was working so badly, that I couldn't even do basic system setup on my NUC until I figured out the USB 3 issue. This issue doesn't affect all bluetooth devices, but I'd strongly recommend having a USB extender or hub on hand if you plan on using a wireless keyboard or mouse.  

And finally, the big issue (for me):
3) WiFi problems.  You don't mention whether you were planning to use wi-fi with the NUC, and if so what adapter you're planning to use with it (the default NUC kit does not ship with wi-fi support).  I used an intel AC7260, and I sincerely wish I hadn't.  It drops wi-fi connections intermittently, especially after a sleep/wake cycle.  When this happens, I have to either reboot the system or manually stop and restart the wi-fi adapter.  Intel's forums are full of people with this problem.  The consequence of this is that the wi-fi connectivity gets borked and borks Wake on Lan periodically, meaning that I can't reliably use Gizmo to remote control the NUC.  When the adapter drops the connection, I have to use the keyboard to wake the PC and then manually restart the network adapter, which is a pain.  Not necessarily a NUC problem, so much as it is an intel wi-fi adapter problem, but if you plan to use wi-fi with the NUC, you'll need to buy an adapter.  I cannot recommend the intel AC7260. One important thing to note in shopping for a wi-fi adapter: an external usb wi-fi dongle is potentially susceptible to the same USB-3 interference problems outlined in 2) above, especially if it's a single band adapter.  I tested an external USB wi-fi dongle (made by Panda), and in my testing, it worked very poorly when plugged directly into the NUC's USB ports.  A USB extension cable improved the functioning of the wi-fi dongle, similar to 2) above.  I did not have any connectivity issues with the NUC's built in ethernet adapter, so if you're planning to run wired, you should have better results.

Those are my observations on the NUC so far after about two months of steady use. Hope this helps!

[daveman]

this is great info.

I will be using an ethernet connection.  so WIFI is not an issue.

the USB issue is very interesting and I will add a USB extender for the wireless keyboard

The main issue that I see is that I can not run Red October HQ (MadVR) for interlaced content.  you note that you had to set MadVR to use DXVA to get acceptable performance with interlaced content.  How is the quality?  is this something that will affect me overall?  what format of videos would this really affect?

dave

[mwillems]

The main issue that I see is that I can not run Red October HQ (MadVR) for interlaced content.  you note that you had to set MadVR to use DXVA to get acceptable performance with interlaced content.  How is the quality?  is this something that will affect me overall?  what format of videos would this really affect?

DXVA works fine in ROHQ, and you may be able to find another combination of scalers that works, but I did not find any that worked well after some plugging and chugging. Also, Red October Standard works perfectly well.  Both of those look pretty nice, quality for either one is quite good; just not quite as good as some of the higher quality MadVR scalers (for certain kinds of content).  

As to how big of a difference it makes, it depends on how much interlaced content you watch, and what type of scaling you're doing.  

Most of my interlaced content comes from dvds or broadcasts of North American television shows in standard definition. If you mostly watch movies or HD content, you're less likely to run into interlaced content.

The choice of scaling algorithms is most significant when you're upscaling content.  So if you're watching 720i content (standard definition interlaced content) on a 1080p screen, the choice of upscaling algorithms in MadVR makes a more significant impact than if you were watching 1080i content (such as certain HD TV broadcasts) on a 1080p screen

If you watch a lot of interlaced content, have a very large screen, and are very attuned to video quality you might not be happy with the NUC.  For my part, I'm extremely happy with the NUC's video playback capabilities on the 36" TV I'm using it with, and would probably be just fine with it on a somewhat larger screen as well.

And if you want the super small form factor, you probably don't have many better options.  In terms of integrated graphics, you won't find significantly better MadVR capability than the HD5000, outside of the laptop market.  To get the higher quality scalers to work reliably with interlaced content, you generally need a fairly high-powered discrete video card, which means a much larger PC case than a NUC. I run an NVidia 660Ti in my main HTPC, and it handles interlaced content quite well at high quality settings, but it's enormous.  And even it can't handle maximum quality MadVR scaling settings (I'm not even sure what cards will run the maximum settings at this point).  

[daveman]

Thanks for the additional information.

I will be using my NUC in my theater in which I have a 120 inch screen and a Sony Hi-def projector.  Currently I use the WDTV Live which works quite well.

interlaced content versus de-interlaced.  What exactly is the difference?  What kind of media is Interlaced?

Also Red October HQ (MadVR) - how much better is this and what is the difference between this and the SD version in terms of real quality (remeber I am streaming up to 120 inches).

thanks again

dave

[6233638]

If you build a system with some serious GPU power, you can use NNEDI3 image doubling, which can offer significant improvements to SD image quality.
The HD5000 will probably be limited to DXVA scaling rather than better scalers (e.g. Jinc 3) or NNEDI3.

I would probably want to be using madVR on a 120" display.

There are some comparisons between scalers here: http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1665438&postcount=22306
You should see that NNEDI3 produces a sharper image with smoother edges than other scalers. (and Jinc 3 was already a very good scaler!)

[daveman]

6233638 - Thanks for the info....

However, as a somewhat naive individual (with very limited time), I simply want to know what equipment I should use in my theater with which settings...

What equipment would you suggest that I get for a theater in my home?  I am less concerned about cost than I am about getting a small silent system that would scale nicely and provide better performance than my WDTV.

thanks

[6233638]

Well, it really depends on your definition of "small".
A PC with a gaming-class GPU is several times larger than a NUC - but can still be smaller than your traditional PC tower.

You won't get a "silent" system with a proper GPU in it though.
The most efficient card right now is a GTX750, and its power consumption is low enough that they can be operated with passive cooling - though that is all aftermarket modification, no-one sells a passive card yet.
I'm not sure that a GTX 750 is fast enough to use NNEDI3 scaling either. (maybe with SD content?)

Sony claim that the fan is 21dB on your projector (though I'm skeptical of their claims - my HW20 was a lot louder than specified) and the quietest gaming-class GPUs are going to be quite a bit louder than that.
My solution was to move the PC out of the theater room.
An alternative might be to wait for the new 800-series GPUs towards the end of the year which should be faster cards that are as efficient as the 750.

[mwillems]

The HD5000 will probably be limited to DXVA scaling rather than better scalers (e.g. Jinc 3) or NNEDI3.

For the record, the HD5000 can actually run Lanczos without much trouble and even Jinc (with some tweaking), provided that you're not trying to scale interlaced content.  I have gotten Jinc working for both chroma and luma on my NUC with progressive content.  In actual practice I use Lanczos for progressive content with the NUC, because the HD5000 needs an impractically large (for my uses) buffer to run Jinc successfully. 

But deinterlacing is where the HD5000 really runs out of gas (forum user Inflatable Mouse got similar results).  And obviously, NNEDI3 is right out.

[6233638]

If you are going to be using Lanczos, you might be better off selecting DXVA instead.
Intel's DXVA scaling is Lanczos 4 based, with their own anti-ringing algorithm.
 
It's maybe not quite as nice as madVR's Lanczos 3 with the anti-ringing filter enabled, but should be a lot more efficient and might let you use deinterlacing.
 
Nvidia and AMD's DXVA scalers are awful and should be avoided.

[daveman]

Ok... does someone want to design a system for me.  I want best possible video and audio.

I am not concerned about price.  Just want it to be as small as possible... maybe a shuttle case?

The computer will go into a cabinet

I need a processor (intel)
Video Card with HDMI
SSD
RAM 16gb (any need for more?)
USB 3.0
IR Remote Capability
Hi Def TV Tuner option
Ethernet

I will have a 7.1 (possibly 9.2) stereo system with video through a Sony projector (VPL-HW40ES SXRD) projecting to a 120 inch screen.  I will have a separate BlueRay player so I do not think that is necessary.

All media will be located on a server in a different room.  Gigabit Ethernet connections so wireless is not an issue.

I have my primary library on a different computer and this computer will connect to the primary library (Does that have any effect on quality of video?  Which computer would actually process the video and use MADVR?)

Dave