INTERACT FORUM

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: DSP Presets  (Read 14733 times)

mojave

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 3732
  • Requires "iTunes or better" so I installed JRiver
DSP Presets
« on: August 14, 2014, 03:15:50 pm »

Quote from: 20.0.7
14. Fixed: Output Format wasn't loading / saving with DSP Presets
This now works, but a playlist won't switch DSP presets with Output Format changes. You have to stop/start to trigger a change.

There needs to be a Default DSP Preset available for each Zone that is used for non-tagged files. Once a DSP Preset changes due to a tagged file, it stays changed for all other files.

Suggested Solution:  Just like one has to Save in Options, I think one should now have to Save in DSP Studio. The saved DSP Studio becomes the default unless you Save As a new Preset. Changes should still be live except for Output Format, but not permanent until saved.

Adding MCWS DSP/LoadDSP or similar would be a nice supplement.
Logged

astromo

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 2239
Re: DSP Presets
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2014, 03:50:16 pm »


Quote from: 20.0.7
Quote
14. Fixed: Output Format wasn't loading / saving with DSP Presets
This now works, but a playlist won't switch DSP presets with Output Format changes. You have to stop/start to trigger a change.

I would really appreciate a simple guide with steps described for making this work.

If I'm not playing audio, I still get the problem as reported here:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=90979.msg625618#msg625618

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=90979.msg625632#msg625632
I'm not sure what "clicking off" and "clicking on" means.

I've tried loading an alternate DSP setting while audio is playing and while there's no playback. No joy. Now I've just made MC20.0.09 crash by trying to load DSP settings while doing that. I'm trying all sorts of options that are obvious to me but ultimately, there's no change to the settings in DSP studio.

I would suggest that a "DSP Settings Loaded Successfully" splash screen for testing be added with an option to turn it off, might be one way of helping out in these early stages. The other option is to set out sufficient advice of how it works that can then be Wiki'd later.

Thanks

EDIT: Instead of an annoying splash screen, a subtle indicator or some method of providing the user feedback which DSP Settings they currently have loaded might be a better idea.
Logged
MC31, Win10 x64, HD-Plex H5 Gen2 Case, HD-Plex 400W Hi-Fi DC-ATX / AC-DC PSU, Gigabyte Z370 ULTRA Gaming 2.0 MoBo, Intel Core i7 8700 CPU, 4x8GB GSkill DDR4 RAM, Schiit Modi Multibit DAC, Freya Pre, Nelson Pass Aleph J DIY Clone, Ascension Timberwolf 8893BSRTL Speakers, BJC 5T00UP cables, DVB-T Tuner HDHR5-4DT

MikeThin

  • Guest
Re: DSP Presets
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2014, 03:50:48 am »



There needs to be a Default DSP Preset available for each Zone that is used for non-tagged files. Currently Once a DSP Preset changes due to a tagged file, it stays changed for all other files.


I agree - otherwise we have to tag every single file.

Apart from that, I'm Really enjoying the new DSP tags - Thanks!!
Logged

dean70

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 508
Re: DSP Presets
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2014, 06:44:19 pm »

Can a MCC command option be added to select a DSP Preset? Then you can have a custom hot key to select a preset rather than tag based.
Logged

rael71

  • World Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 116
Re: DSP Presets
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2014, 09:00:37 am »

Is it possible to apply DSP (es. volume levelling) only when you are playing a playlist or only when play mode is shuffle?

Maybe for the playlists I can do it with zone switch but for shuffle playing I don't know how to do it.
Logged
Bye!

Andrea

Hendrik

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 10814
Re: DSP Presets
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2014, 09:03:39 am »

That's not possible, sorry.

Why would you only then want volume leveling? Its really only useful if its always on, otherwise you still have to mess with playback volume to get an uniform sound.
Logged
~ nevcairiel
~ Author of LAV Filters

rael71

  • World Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 116
Re: DSP Presets
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2014, 09:20:15 am »

Quote
That's not possible, sorry.

Why would you only then want volume leveling? Its really only useful if its always on, otherwise you still have to mess with playback volume to get an uniform sound.

I prefer not to use software volume but only amplifier volume, so Normally I disable volume cause when I play albums (most of the time) you have only to change volume at album change.

But when I shuffle or play from playlist It's useful to enable volume levelling and I'd like to have JR doing that automatically... but anyway no problem!!
Logged
Bye!

Andrea

DoubtingThomas

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 564
Re: DSP Presets
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2014, 12:39:15 pm »

DSP Presets is the best new feature of MC20.  I'm really hoping it works as I want... it's early.

Yes, there needs to be some default to fall back to when a track ends with the next track not having a preset configured.
Logged

Claude Lapalme

  • World Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 233
Re: DSP Presets
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2014, 01:01:28 pm »

DSP Presets is the best new feature of MC20.  I'm really hoping it works as I want... it's early.

Yes, there needs to be some default to fall back to when a track ends with the next track not having a preset configured.

Agreed!
Logged

mojave

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 3732
  • Requires "iTunes or better" so I installed JRiver
Re: DSP Presets
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2014, 10:24:09 am »

Is it possible to use an expression in the DSP tag? I tried and it doesn't work, but maybe I'm doing it wrong.
Example:  If(isequal[Genre], Rock), Rock, Default)

If we can use expressions, can the zone be specified in an expression using the zone specifier table? I couldn't find any info on referencing zones in an expression.
Logged

Matt

  • Administrator
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 42075
  • Shoes gone again!
Re: DSP Presets
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2014, 10:59:37 am »

Is it possible to use an expression in the DSP tag? I tried and it doesn't work, but maybe I'm doing it wrong.
Example:  If(isequal[Genre], Rock), Rock, Default)

If we can use expressions, can the zone be specified in an expression using the zone specifier table? I couldn't find any info on referencing zones in an expression.

It can't be an expression, but you could fill it from an expression by putting an equal in front of the expression at tag entry time.
Logged
Matt Ashland, JRiver Media Center

MikeThin

  • Guest
Re: DSP Presets
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2014, 07:57:05 pm »

Sorry for going on about this – I’m just really keen for this feature to work!

Not having a default DSP is not a major issue, as that can be worked around – eg. Via tagging every track (yuck but workable).

The big problems are that it doesn't work with ZONES or individual DSP items:

1.   Ticking a single box on the DSP pop up window (eg. PEQ) and saving a new DSP just saves those settings, as you would expect.  But…  When you load that saved DSP (Ie via a tag on a track), it UnTicks all the other options that you have turned on – thus losing the other settings (eg. Output format)

2.   DSP saved items and tags are not Zone specific - so it will trash your zone settings - for example, if you have saved a DSP and tagged a track with that DSP name, playing that track under a different zone will load the saved DSP and all its tabs (including output format), overwriting this zone's settings! 

Suggested solutions:

   1. If you save a DSP with some items unticked, when later loading that DSP, the system should only change the settings saved in the DSP, and  leave all other items ticked/unticked status as they were.    For example, you save a DSP with only PEQ ticked, when later loading that DSP, the system should only change the PEQ settings, and  leave the Output format ticked as it was.

   2. When you save a DSP, the current zone should be part of the context, and only get loaded by a tagged track when you are playing back in the same zone.   That way, we can have (eg) different PEQ’s per track per zone.  This is useful for having a ‘Speaker’ zone and a ‘Headphone’ zone with different output settings and different PEQ’s.

Thanks all.
Logged

bblue

  • Galactic Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 307
Re: DSP Presets
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2014, 08:31:42 pm »

There are many issues with the current implementation.  Please see my post at http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=91361.msg628945#msg628945
Logged

ken-tajalli

  • World Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 133
Re: DSP Presets
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2014, 07:35:14 am »

There are many issues with the current implementation.  Please see my post at http://yabb.JRiver.com/interact/index.php?topic=91361.msg628945#msg628945

You have some good ideas there, and I agree with most, I am sure this feature will be a great one, and shall be tweaked to get the best out of it.
1st of all - THANX JRiver!
- global and per track DSP's - very good idea and essential.
- Play-list DSP Naah! definitely per-track or per-album.
- Sure! keep room correction, convolution and the rest (global settings) out of per-track DSP.
- 100% correct - Unload per-track DSP after the track (or album) is played, how else could it be PER track if it remains on? ;)
- Ability to save/backup DSP settings to a file, just in case .
Logged
Uncompressed music on PC - Hugo 2 & DX7 pro - Meridian Poweramp,  Sonus Faber Grand Piano

MikeThin

  • Guest
Re: DSP Presets
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2014, 10:59:04 pm »

- Sure! keep room correction, convolution and the rest (global settings) out of per-track DSP.
This only makes sense if saved DSP's are enhanced to be Zone aware - I have a 'Headphone' zone and a 'Loudspeaker' zone with different room correction, different output formats and different PEQ's.

Zones work really well for this - But using saved DSP's per track currently effectively trash the zone settings.
Logged

ken-tajalli

  • World Citizen
  • ***
  • Posts: 133
Re: DSP Presets
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2014, 04:47:15 pm »

This only makes sense if saved DSP's are enhanced to be Zone aware - I have a 'Headphone' zone and a 'Loudspeaker' zone with different room correction, different output formats and different PEQ's.

Zones work really well for this - But using saved DSP's per track currently effectively trash the zone settings.

Very valid point indeed.
- Saved DSP presets should be zone specific.
- Presets should unload, once the track has finished playing.
- DSP window should refresh at every change, and a simple indicator showing what preset is loaded.
- There needs to be a default DSP for untagged tracks, for each zone.
But we are getting there, I am sure in time it will be almost perfect.
Logged
Uncompressed music on PC - Hugo 2 & DX7 pro - Meridian Poweramp,  Sonus Faber Grand Piano

bblue

  • Galactic Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 307
Re: DSP Presets
« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2014, 05:35:22 pm »

Very valid point indeed.
- Saved DSP presets should be zone specific.
- Presets should unload, once the track has finished playing.
- DSP window should refresh at every change, and a simple indicator showing what preset is loaded.
- There needs to be a default DSP for untagged tracks, for each zone.
But we are getting there, I am sure in time it will be almost perfect.

Being zone specific is not necessary if the DSP-per-Track settings are completely non-global and unique to the track and nothing else.  That means they affect the track at the library level, completely independent of any zone settings (which are global per zone).

But that's never going to happen the way real-time DSP sets per track are currently implemented.

If you haven't already, please read my DSP-Per-Track proposal at http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=91361.msg628945#msg628945 and comment there.  Most of the things you have already said you preferred are in that proposal, NOT how it is now.  Big difference.  It's going to take some comments on my DSP-Per-Track proposal to have any changes made.  Otherwise, we'll be stuck with the current mostly useless implementation.

--Bill
Logged

6233638

  • Regular Member
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 5353
Re: DSP Presets
« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2014, 06:56:09 pm »

I did some preliminary testing of DSP presets this evening, and unless I have overlooked something, I'm not sure how the current implementation is useful at all.
I tried creating two DSP presets:
 
  • Sets the EQ to "Rock"
  • Enables Adaptive Volume in the "Small Speakers" mode
 
All other DSP functions were disabled when saving these presets.
The zone I was testing in had no DSP functions enabled at the start of playback.
 
 
I assigned DSP presets to two tracks in a playlist of five:
  • No preset assigned
  • Rock DSP preset
  • No preset assigned
  • Adaptive Volume DSP preset
  • No preset assigned

 
Expected behavior:
  • No DSP applied
  • Equalizer is set to "Rock"
  • No DSP applied
  • Adaptive Volume is enabled
  • No DSP applied

 
Results:
  • No DSP
  • EQ is enabled—but is not set to "Rock"—it is left at whichever preset was previously in use. (Flat, in this case)
  • EQ is still enabled rather than switching off
  • EQ switches off (was not intended to be a part of the Adaptive preset) but adaptive volume is not enabled, meaning that no DSP is applied to this track.
  • No DSP is applied

 
Without making things too complicated, the best solution I can come up with for this would be to present the user with a list of checkboxes when saving a preset, allowing them to select which of the current DSP states they wish to include.
This would let the user include or exclude specific on/off states from a preset, rather than saving the entire state of DSP Studio.
 
For example, in my headphone zones I would have the headphone VST enabled, and in my speaker zones, it would be disabled.
Saving the state of the headphone DSP—whether on or off—to a per-track DSP preset would not be useful.
I would want to exclude it from any presets that I am creating, since I don't want tracks to be able to change the state of the Headphone DSP.
The same thing might apply to Room Correction/Convolution in a speaker-based zone for example. I would not want to set that on a per-track basis, and would want it excluded from the DSP Preset.
 
The other problem is that DSP presets are overwriting the current DSP state for the zone.
All changes made by a DSP preset should be temporary, and only applied to that track.
A DSP preset should not be able to change the current settings for the zone.
Logged

bblue

  • Galactic Citizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 307
Re: DSP Presets
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2014, 07:46:00 pm »

...
The other problem is that DSP presets are overwriting the current DSP state for the zone.
All changes made by a DSP preset should be temporary, and only applied to that track.
A DSP preset should not be able to change the current settings for the zone.

Thank you!   (That eq thing you referenced where the settings didn't change might have been fixed in today's release)

Could you take a look at my DSP-Per-Track proposal (reference in an earlier message) and see if there are any points I didn't cover?

--Bill
Logged

mojave

  • MC Beta Team
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 3732
  • Requires "iTunes or better" so I installed JRiver
Re: DSP Presets
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2015, 03:21:09 pm »

There have been more requests for a Default DSP setting:
Help re. auto DSP
Can new DSP autoload settings?
Logged

6233638

  • Regular Member
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 5353
Re: DSP Presets
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2015, 03:40:59 pm »

The issue is not just that we need a "default DSP" setting.
The current DSP preset system needs overhauled.
Even with a "default DSP" setting, so that we no longer have to tag every file in our library with a DSP preset, the DSP presets themselves need to be more specific than a general "save all DSP settings".
The current profile system is unusable if you have a mixture of stereo and 5.1 playback devices for example.


I have detailed it in this post:
I don't think that there should be a specific "default preset for this zone" but simply that Media Center should resort to the previous "No DSP Tag" state when it switches from a tagged file to an untagged file.
And there needs to be some way of specifying what plug-ins are included in a preset.

For example:
Let's say that I want to tag an album with a "Rock EQ" preset.
With that preset, I only want it to save and apply the state of the "Equalizer" plug-in.
I don't want it saving the fact that I was in the "Upmix to 5.1" Zone when I created that preset, because that means it can only be used in Zones which support 5.1 playback and those tracks would give me an error if I tried to play them in my "Headphone" Zone for example.

And if I decide to add a new plug-in to the default state for that zone—say a plug-in that adds headphone crossfeed—I don't want to have to modify my "Rock EQ" preset (and every other preset) so that it doesn't disable the new crossfeed plug-in every time those tracks are played.

When saving a DSP preset it needs to prompt you with something similar to the "paste tags" dialog box which lets you select which of the current DSP states should be included.
In the example above, I would specify that the preset only includes the state of the Equalizer DSP, so that it does not affect the state of any other DSPs. (whether that would be enabling or disabling them when that track plays)
Where this gets complicated, is that there also needs to be an "All Other DSP" option so that presets can be applicable to future states of DSP Studio, rather than having to modify every single preset each time you add a new plug-in.

As another example, if I want to create a DSP Preset which specifically disables all DSP except Output Format and then I add a new plug-in further down the line, that preset does not have any information about the state of the new plug-in and it would stay enabled.
If there was an "All Other DSP" item when saving a DSP Preset, it would be possible to create a preset which automatically disables all other DSPs for which the state is not included.

In this example:
  • The status of Output Format would not be included in the preset. (so the preset can be used in any zone and the existing OF state is preserved)
  • The status of every currently existing plug-in would be saved. (as disabled)
  • The "All Other DSP" item would also be included to store a "disabled" state (so that any plug-ins added to MC after the creation of this preset are also disabled)

For other presets, I might specify that the "All Other DSP" state is not included, so that the current state for any new plug-in is preserved when that track plays, rather than specifically enabling or disabling it.
I realize that this is complicated, but it is the only solution I can see which actually covers most (if not all) use-cases for DSP presets in a system like Media Center's that supports external plug-ins.


The current system, where it saves the state of all currently installed plug-ins, and any changes made by a preset "stick", is effectively useless unless you only have the most basic of requirements (such as only playing in a single zone, and only adjusting the EQ preset) and if you don't mind tagging every single file in your library with a "blank" DSP preset. (which is absurd)
Logged

rec head

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 1006
Re: DSP Presets
« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2015, 08:59:50 am »

The DSP preset would be such a great feature if it only worked easily.
Logged

Al ex

  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 550
Re:
« Reply #22 on: March 09, 2015, 04:50:06 pm »

Definitely with all of you - DSP settings should be further enhanced. And a default DSP setting would help a lot.
Logged

Hilton

  • Regular Member
  • Citizen of the Universe
  • *****
  • Posts: 1291
Re: DSP Presets
« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2015, 08:52:31 am »

Would really love to have DSP Preset load from MCWS! Or for my purposes the ability to program a remote button command to load a saved preset in the remote editor.
It seems the fundamentals are there in both MCWS which can already turn individual DSPs on or off and the remote editor can add custom commands but DSPs isn't one of the available options.

Please may I have this feature with sugar on top. :)
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up