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Author Topic: WDM Problems  (Read 76648 times)

natehansen66

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« Reply #100 on: October 18, 2014, 08:47:28 pm »

KILLER! Thanks guys.

I don't have much more to ask for  ;)
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sirkus

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« Reply #101 on: October 19, 2014, 03:17:34 am »

Who is doing the sample rate conversion that can be set in Windows sound card settings? MC or Windows?
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Hendrik

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« Reply #102 on: October 19, 2014, 03:47:57 am »

Who is doing the sample rate conversion that can be set in Windows sound card settings? MC or Windows?

Windows.
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sirkus

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« Reply #103 on: October 19, 2014, 09:09:06 am »

OK, thanks.
When I select JRiver WDM in WASAPI exclusive (from Qobuz player) I have clicks&pops. But, in non-exclusive mode it works without problems. I have tried the maximum buffer in MC, without success. I have tried to play with clocks frequency, too.
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JimH

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« Reply #104 on: October 19, 2014, 09:17:48 am »

Try a smaller buffer.
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aproc

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« Reply #105 on: October 19, 2014, 09:41:06 am »

What is this setting, in the screenshot below, for? When should this option be selected?
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sirkus

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« Reply #106 on: October 19, 2014, 09:59:09 am »

Quote
Try a smaller buffer.

The problem is the same with each buffer value (in MC, Audio, Advanced).
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JimH

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« Reply #107 on: October 19, 2014, 10:10:45 am »

Adjust the buffer size down in Options > Audio > Device settings.  I use 10ms.
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sirkus

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« Reply #108 on: October 19, 2014, 10:34:08 am »

Unfortunately, this doesn't solve the problem.
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Arindelle

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« Reply #109 on: October 19, 2014, 12:45:14 pm »

What is this setting, in the screenshot below, for? When should this option be selected?
Don't mess with that  ;)
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Arindelle

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« Reply #110 on: October 19, 2014, 02:04:34 pm »

OK, thanks.
When I select JRiver WDM in WASAPI exclusive (from Qobuz player) I have clicks&pops. But, in non-exclusive mode it works without problems. I have tried the maximum buffer in MC, without success. I have tried to play with clocks frequency, too.
Unfortunately, this doesn't solve the problem.

I got Qobuz streaming in Flac pretty well --

this is what I recommend you do in this order (note every set-up is going to be different) -- even though we are talking about audio, I would get this to work for video streaming then you know the final adjustment will be in Qobuz -- get that BBC synchro video posted earlier in the thread. This is based on having set the JR driver in windows as default beforehand. Then launching JRiver (or closing and restarting it including the server if you are using it)

  • create a new zone (IPC or WDM driver, streaming or whatever you want to call it  :D
  • in audio options for this zone; set the audio device at 50ms
  • in the advanced options, start at 50ms and go downwards and sync to the video ... if you are 10ms and that still doesn't work, go back to the audio device and reduce the 50ms to a lower value [note I have found that "minimal" hardware setting is dodgy; maybe that is just on my set-up.
  • once you have synced video to the audio, open Qobuz - go to Preferences (Options maybe? sorry my interface for Qobuz is in French^^); choose Flac; put their buffer to the lowest setting 64kb. If you still have cracks raise it progressively, but not too much. If there are still issues reduce or eliminate their crossfading setting.


That should do the trick provided you have a half way decent internet connection. Hope that helps some

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mattkhan

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« Reply #111 on: October 19, 2014, 03:26:01 pm »

The "minimums" will depend on what buffering settings your devices/computer will tolerate. On all the PCs I tested, I could achieve a configuration that was good enough for lipsync without convolution (although on one machine it was verging on unacceptable).  By contrast with convolution some of my machines were still solid, but some were definitely not.
I had a quick play with this earlier and it was definitely a fail with convolution on (using a minimum phase version of my usual filters) but seemed ok with convolution off. Do you have a good way to measure the actual latency in the chain?
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Matt

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« Reply #112 on: October 19, 2014, 03:26:54 pm »

I had a quick play with this earlier and it was definitely a fail with convolution on (using a minimum phase version of my usual filters) but seemed ok with convolution off. Do you have a good way to measure the actual latency in the chain?

Try increasing the buffering in Options > Audio > Advanced > Live playback letency
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sirkus

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« Reply #113 on: October 19, 2014, 04:47:03 pm »

Quote
That should do the trick provided you have a half way decent internet connection. Hope that helps some

Merci, but no luck :(

Quote
I got Qobuz streaming in Flac pretty well --

Do you use WASAPI exclusive? I can't even use JRiver ASIO, because it seems there is an old bug in Qobuz player that force to use the first driver available in the list (and JRiver isn't the first ASIO).

I'm still in trial period with Qobuz, but I'm starting to have doubts with the player... shame for such interesting catalog
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Arindelle

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« Reply #114 on: October 19, 2014, 05:30:45 pm »

Do you use WASAPI exclusive? I can't even use JRiver ASIO, because it seems there is an old bug in Qobuz player that force to use the first driver available in the list (and JRiver isn't the first ASIO).

I'm still in trial period with Qobuz, but I'm starting to have doubts with the player... shame for such interesting catalog
Yes, I use WASAPI exclusive for my Audio device in JRiver. NOT in Qobuz

In the Qobuz preferences, you choose the the default driver (WDM) you set in windows, which should read Default: Speakers (JRiver Media Center 20) . Don't use Wasapi exclusive that happens to come up under their menu way down the list . That shouldn't be an option even, thats not the WDM driver.

Maybe you are confusing the audio device that JRiver is using and the driver that external programs/apps would use? Haven't tried this yet with the new driver, but if you want to use ASIO, you should be able to but set from within JRiver not Qobuz.

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sirkus

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« Reply #115 on: October 20, 2014, 12:59:41 pm »

Quote
Yes, I use WASAPI exclusive for my Audio device in JRiver. NOT in Qobuz

Maybe, I'm missing something, here is my understanding:

1. We have one virtual sound card (JRiver) with two drivers. One is WDM (including WASAPI) and the other is ASIO.
2. And I have one physical soundcard (RME HDSP AES) with two drivers, one is WDM (including WASAPI) and the other is ASIO.

The external application sends audio to 1. (which is MC and its DSP).
And MC sends audio to 2. (which is the physical sound card).

Quote
Maybe you are confusing the audio device that JRiver is using and the driver that external programs/apps would use? Haven't tried this yet with the new driver, but if you want to use ASIO, you should be able to but set from within JRiver not Qobuz.

No single soudcard from above is addressed at the same time (or at any time) by both applications.

Quote
In the Qobuz preferences, you choose the the default driver (WDM) you set in windows, which should read Default: Speakers (JRiver Media Center 20) . Don't use Wasapi exclusive that happens to come up under their menu way down the list . That shouldn't be an option even, thats not the WDM driver.

WASAPI non-exclusive works. The advantage of ASIO and WASAPI exclusive is that it bypasses Windows mixer (re-sampling, etc...).
Here is what Matt says (http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=92593.msg637547#msg637547)
Quote
For what interfaces are supported, it's any interface that talks to a WDM driver.  That's WASAPI, KS, DirectSound, etc.

From what I hear, it's like a sync issue between cards (virtual and physical). For example, I had this problem in ASIO4ALL when aggregating multiple soundcards. So, anyone can confirm that WASAPI exclusive is supported through MC? Or in others words, is it possible to go bit perfect from application via MC to physical sound card?

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Matt

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« Reply #116 on: October 20, 2014, 03:41:00 pm »

Next build:
Changed: The WDM driver enters silence mode after 10 seconds of silence instead of 5 seconds.
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JimH

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« Reply #117 on: October 21, 2014, 10:14:00 am »

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SpaceLaser

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« Reply #118 on: October 21, 2014, 09:57:49 pm »

I've been getting some odd freezes when I try to change audio tracks sometimes. I have one zone dedicated to my desktop application audio, then another for my main JRiver audio play back. Sometimes if I stop a track in my JRiver zone, Media Center hangs and I have to restart the program.

I'm using WASAPI non-exclusive mode so I can hear music and whatever application I'm using in normal use.
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glynor

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« Reply #119 on: October 22, 2014, 01:58:44 am »

A few questions about this.  I'm just now playing with it a bit.

* Does it handle multichannel audio?

Does it make sense to run through the Windows Sound Control Panel's Configuration speaker test thing?  I can tell you that it isn't working well for me on my server box (using just Realtek onboard audio in WASAPI mode, generally well behaved with MC).

When running the test: In the Stereo mode, the Left channels play, but the right ones are silent.  In the other various modes I can get the rear left speakers to play as well, but none of them on the right do at all.  Plus, my Left main speaker also plays (in addition to when Left main is supposed to play) when the Center is supposed to be, and the same happens for one of my rear surrounds.

So, I don't know if that works at all, or is supposed to... But, even if the speaker test in Windows doesn't work, does it take multichannel surround (like from Games, and other things like that that do provide stereo sources) but then automatically JRSS up to surround for actual stereo sources?  Do I need to set Windows to the proper number of channels, or keep it on stereo?

Because that's awesome if I can set Windows to the "right number" and have Stereo sources still upmixed by JRSS.  Right now, I have to keep Windows set at two channel, which lets my Receiver upmix those sounds, but then that breaks it when an application can actually play multichannel output (like games, or whatever).

* It has to be running, but, can you confirm that it works in Library Server mode, and not just full GUI mode?  I seemed to have different results from the Windows configuration speaker test when MC was in Library Server mode, but it was acting so weird it is hard to tell.  EDIT: I think this part seems to work fine in Library Server mode.

* Also, should we alter the Default Format setting in Windows for the MC WDM Driver?  Does it make sense to just crank this up?  Or maybe it is best to assume most other audio will be natively in some crap mode, so why have Windows resample it first?  Not sure there.
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Hendrik

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« Reply #120 on: October 22, 2014, 02:02:20 am »

* Does it handle multichannel audio?

Yes it does. Like with any other WDM/DirectSound audio device, you will need to set the number of channels though. Only if you set it to 5.1 in the Windows options, it'll actually receive 5.1 - and it will always receive 5.1 then.
MC will then apply JRSS and any other processing.

Thats just how the whole Windows sound architecture works, unless you use WASAPI exclusive mode, Windows will always mix to whatever format is configured here before the driver sees it.

* Also, should we alter the Default Format setting in Windows for the MC WDM Driver?  Does it make sense to just crank this up?  Or maybe it is best to assume most other audio will be natively in some crap mode, so why have Windows resample it first?  Not sure there.

If you listen to a lot of online music, 44.1k/24 is probably the best choice, or if its more gaming and general purpose audio, 48/24, unless you know that your audio is primarily of another sample rate. You would want to avoid too much resampling in Windows (even if their resampler isn't the worst in the world anymore).
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aproc

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« Reply #121 on: October 22, 2014, 02:42:26 am »

I want to play videos in MPC-HC and get the audio processed via JRiver MC (the primary reason being the absence of Pan & Scan controls in MC). So I have selected JRiver MC as the output device (Wasapi exclusive mode) in Reclock's settings. Now all I hear in MC is the static. Sometimes after seeking multiple times, I can hear the audio though but with lipsync issues. What settings should I change to get it working properly?

Also, MC's WDM driver doesn't accept greater than 24 bit audio. It would be ideal if it could accept 32 bit integer (or maybe floating point if possible) audio in Wasapi exclusive mode. 
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Hendrik

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« Reply #122 on: October 22, 2014, 05:58:55 am »

It should never set itself as the default device, never has done so for me.
it will also only ask the first time you install it, once you give permission it only needs to update the driver and not install a new device
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Arindelle

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« Reply #123 on: October 22, 2014, 06:49:39 am »

It should never set itself as the default device, never has done so for me.
it will also only ask the first time you install it, once you give permission it only needs to update the driver and not install a new device
It "unset" the driver as my default device though? Is that normal?

And, unless there are changes to the driver is it necessary to have it reinstalled each time there is an update?
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mwillems

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« Reply #124 on: October 22, 2014, 07:28:28 am »

It "unset" the driver as my default device though? Is that normal?

Same here, everytime I update it seems to un-default the driver.
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Schmidter

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« Reply #125 on: October 22, 2014, 01:00:30 pm »


From what I hear, it's like a sync issue between cards (virtual and physical). For example, I had this problem in ASIO4ALL when aggregating multiple soundcards. So, anyone can confirm that WASAPI exclusive is supported through MC? Or in others words, is it possible to go bit perfect from application via MC to physical sound card?



Also interested in this.  Thanks for any input!
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Matt

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« Reply #126 on: October 22, 2014, 01:09:29 pm »

From what I hear, it's like a sync issue between cards (virtual and physical). For example, I had this problem in ASIO4ALL when aggregating multiple soundcards. So, anyone can confirm that WASAPI exclusive is supported through MC? Or in others words, is it possible to go bit perfect from application via MC to physical sound card?

WASAPI exclusive works fine.  I just tested MC19 in exclusive mode playing to MC20 in the driver.  It works without hiccups.
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Schmidter

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« Reply #127 on: October 22, 2014, 01:21:46 pm »

For all your fine work (and the post), thanks, again!
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glynor

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« Reply #128 on: October 22, 2014, 03:32:47 pm »

Only if you set it to 5.1 in the Windows options, it'll actually receive 5.1 - and it will always receive 5.1 then.
MC will then apply JRSS and any other processing.

Any way you can "detect" empty channels?

Because that would be a killer feature.  The way Windows does it is super-annoying now.
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sirkus

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« Reply #129 on: October 23, 2014, 12:51:41 pm »

Quote
WASAPI exclusive works fine.  I just tested MC19 in exclusive mode playing to MC20 in the driver.  It works without hiccups.

Great! You are right. I'm testing it with foobar WASAPI plugin (push style, because event style gives BSOD) and the sound is perfect.
If anyone can test JRiver WDM WASAPI exclusive in Qobuz player, I will be interested to know if it's only me who has a problem.
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N2audio

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« Reply #130 on: October 24, 2014, 08:56:15 am »

Is this driver compatible with XP?  I just updated and received a warning at the point of the driver install....out of caution, I opted to not install the driver.

Thanks...
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Hendrik

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« Reply #131 on: October 24, 2014, 12:47:02 pm »

The driver will not work on XP, sorry.
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aproc

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« Reply #132 on: October 24, 2014, 01:47:20 pm »

I want to play videos in MPC-HC and get the audio processed via JRiver MC (the primary reason being the absence of Pan & Scan controls in MC). So I have selected JRiver MC as the output device (Wasapi exclusive mode) in Reclock's settings. Now all I hear in MC is the static. Sometimes after seeking multiple times, I can hear the audio though but with lipsync issues. What settings should I change to get it working properly?

Also, MC's WDM driver doesn't accept greater than 24 bit audio. It would be ideal if it could accept 32 bit integer (or maybe floating point if possible) audio in Wasapi exclusive mode. 

Can anyone please tell me the settings to fix the static (distortion/ noise) that I get on my laptop or is that a bug?
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6233638

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« Reply #133 on: October 24, 2014, 01:54:06 pm »

Can anyone please tell me the settings to fix the static (distortion/ noise) that I get on my laptop or is that a bug?
Increase the buffer size/latency.
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aproc

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« Reply #134 on: October 24, 2014, 02:19:48 pm »

After increasing the buffer size and live latency, the audio breaks and still distortion comes intermittently. The audio breaks for direct sound too. I have tried many combinations of buffer size and latency, none of the combinations play smooth audio.
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JimH

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« Reply #135 on: October 24, 2014, 02:31:22 pm »

Try decreasing the size.
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prerich

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« Reply #136 on: October 24, 2014, 02:55:26 pm »

 :D ;D :D Matt, you guys keep doing things like this - you've got me for life!!!!!! Good work, Matt!!!!!!! Bless you!!!!!
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aproc

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« Reply #137 on: October 25, 2014, 12:34:34 am »

Try decreasing the size.

Already tried that. It doesn't help. Also tried on an old desktop system with Pentium D, the audio breaks, skips and distortion comes on that system too. In both these systems, before this WDM driver came, I was using wasapi loopback and it worked perfectly except for the lipsync issue which was really terrible.
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Arindelle

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« Reply #138 on: October 25, 2014, 06:27:05 am »

Can anyone please tell me the settings to fix the static (distortion/ noise) that I get on my laptop or is that a bug?
what are you streaming from?  Is it Qobuz or another app that gives you output choices??

If so make sure you choose the driver that is set in default in windows -- > Default : (Speakers) JRiver media Center 20

don't choose the WASAPI Exclusive or the ASIO mode or whatever else they offer - this will cause static as the renderer, JRiver, is already running in WASAPI exclusive or ASIO or whatever. This will not detract from "bit perfectness", depending of course on the input received.

(devs please correct me if I'm wrong about this, but I'm pretty sure the default driver must be used and it shunts the signal to the proper output driver (or device rather), either I'm misunderstanding or others are)
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skibum

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« Reply #139 on: October 25, 2014, 06:55:50 am »

I use JREMOTE to conrol JRiver on my headless computer. 

Up to now I have not done any streaming of Spotify, Wimp, etc.  I have just played music that is stored on my computer.

With the WDM driver can I set up JRiver so that I can easily switch back and forth, using JREMOTE, between SPOTIFY and music stored on my computer?

Thanks!
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6233638

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« Reply #140 on: October 25, 2014, 12:15:32 pm »

I use JREMOTE to conrol JRiver on my headless computer.

Up to now I have not done any streaming of Spotify, Wimp, etc.  I have just played music that is stored on my computer.

With the WDM driver can I set up JRiver so that I can easily switch back and forth, using JREMOTE, between SPOTIFY and music stored on my computer?
Install Airfoil ($25) and run the "Airfoil Speakers" app.
Or Shairport4w. (free, but may be less reliable)
 
Configure it to play to the JRiver audio device.
 
Now you will be able to use the Spotify app on your phone/tablet to send audio to the Airfoil/Shairport audio device, which then plays through Media Center.
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skibum

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« Reply #141 on: October 25, 2014, 12:27:58 pm »

Install Airfoil ($25) and run the "Airfoil Speakers" app.
Or Shairport4w. (free, but may be less reliable)
 
Configure it to play to the JRiver audio device.
 
Now you will be able to use the Spotify app on your phone/tablet to send audio to the Airfoil/Shairport audio device, which then plays through Media Center.

Thanks, but I do not think that is what I want.  I do not want to use any wifi for steaming music between my devices.

I want to install Spotify on my headless computer.  I want to be able to "remote" control spotify using my iPad.  Can I configure JRiver using the new WDM Driver so that Spotify output goes through JRiver? 

I want to be able to go back and forth between Spotify to playing music that is on my computer hard drive using just an iPad. 

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)p(

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« Reply #142 on: October 25, 2014, 12:40:59 pm »

Thanks, but I do not think that is what I want.  I do not want to use any wifi for steaming music between my devices.

I want to install Spotify on my headless computer.  I want to be able to "remote" control spotify using my iPad.  Can I configure JRiver using the new WDM Driver so that Spotify output goes through JRiver?  

I want to be able to go back and forth between Spotify to playing music that is on my computer hard drive using just an iPad.  



You need the latest version of the spotify desktop app. It now supports being controlled by the spotify app on your ipad.
Set the jriver wdm driver as your default audio device and your set. For convenience assign a specific zone to the wdm driver. Use "[Name]="IPC"" to setup the zone.

Personally I prefer airplay because I can control spotify from the lock screen and control center on the ipad. This does not work when you control the desktop app from the spotify app on the ipad.
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thediscman

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« Reply #143 on: October 26, 2014, 04:49:05 am »

Congrats to the team for this accomplishment!!

In the opening post of this thread, it says, "It gets you everything MC can do with the sound.  DSP, zones, volume leveling..."

I have grown very attached to volume leveling, but I thought that it only worked by using volume information stored in the tags of the files you're playing.

Is it possible to use volume leveling on audio from streamed sources like Spotify & YouTube?!
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6233638

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« Reply #144 on: October 26, 2014, 07:16:47 am »

Is it possible to use volume leveling on audio from streamed sources like Spotify & YouTube?!
No. You could use adaptive volume to compress everything to a "normalized" level, but it wouldn't sound very good.
Volume leveling needs pre-analysis to work correctly. Real-time analysis is not going to give good results.
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aproc

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« Reply #145 on: October 26, 2014, 12:51:31 pm »

what are you streaming from?  Is it Qobuz or another app that gives you output choices??

If so make sure you choose the driver that is set in default in windows -- > Default : (Speakers) JRiver media Center 20

don't choose the WASAPI Exclusive or the ASIO mode or whatever else they offer - this will cause static as the renderer, JRiver, is already running in WASAPI exclusive or ASIO or whatever. This will not detract from "bit perfectness", depending of course on the input received.

(devs please correct me if I'm wrong about this, but I'm pretty sure the default driver must be used and it shunts the signal to the proper output driver (or device rather), either I'm misunderstanding or others are)

I am not using Qobuz and not any streaming services either. The output choices are offered by Reclock renderer used in MPC-HC.

Yes, JRiver Media Center 20 has been selected as the default device in Windows.

Matt has posted earlier in this thread that he was able to output audio from MC 19 in Wasapi exclusive mode to MC 20 via WDM driver. So it works in his setup and probably in the setups of other users too. In both my systems, audio breaks, skips and distorts even for Direct Sound when using this WDM driver. Besides this, I have never had such audio problems on my systems.
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JimH

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WDM Problems
« Reply #146 on: October 26, 2014, 01:05:03 pm »

Adjust the buffer size.  Smaller may be better.
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Arindelle

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WDM Problems
« Reply #147 on: October 26, 2014, 02:12:48 pm »

I am not using Qobuz and not any streaming services either. The output choices are offered by Reclock renderer used in MPC-HC.

Yes, JRiver Media Center 20 has been selected as the default device in Windows.

Matt has posted earlier in this thread that he was able to output audio from MC 19 in Wasapi exclusive mode to MC 20 via WDM driver. So it works in his setup and probably in the setups of other users too. In both my systems, audio breaks, skips and distorts even for Direct Sound when using this WDM driver. Besides this, I have never had such audio problems on my systems.

Thats why I asked confirmation of that! (Unless he was playing to JR 20 like a DLNA device which I don't know how to do). I cannot get MC 19 to play through JR WASAPI, or JR ASIO without clicks and basic crap sound. It will work with  JR20 (Direct Sound) which is not "direct sound"  I think it is their WDM driver -- and that plays back fine.  So if Matt could confirm ......

I think the driver, if set to default correctly,  shunts over the input without going through the windows mixer ... I'm showing even though it says JRiver Media Center 20 [Direct Sound] as the output device in JR 19, it is a direct connection (bit-perfect) to  the playback (rendering) handled by JR 20 using the WASAPI exclusive output (or ASIO or whatever). It is not using Window's direct sound.

Simply, I think that the external source must be "played" or outputted using the WDM driver (if there is a choice) and not another output option =>by passing the window mixer using a direct connection audio path,  then it gets rendered in JR 20.

when loading the Noire skin I even get the blue button showing.

If I am wrong, then I don't know how Matt set the output on JR 19 to WASAPI or  ASIO and didn't get noise over the IPC input to JR 20.

Someone could confirm this? If I'm wrong I'd like to know. If I'm right maybe instead of saying JRiver Direct Sound maybe it should say JRiver direct input or something to that effect?

PS @Aproc -- I'm not familiar with Reclock and MPC-HC. But if you are using JR's driver and JRiver as a render why use another renderer in the chain? thanks
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stewart_pk

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WDM Problems
« Reply #148 on: October 26, 2014, 08:30:16 pm »

Sorry to be negative but I'm very disappointed in this and I've disabled the JRiver WDM device.
On my HTPC I currently use the system volume control for WMC, Cyberlink PDVD and Netflix through a browser. When using JRiver I use it's Internal Volume.
I was hoping to use the new WDM driver with WMC, PDVD, Netlfix (web browser) but how am I suppose to control volume (with an IR remote) and why does the open JRiver application take focus after I start playing something from another application?
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mutato

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WDM Problems
« Reply #149 on: October 27, 2014, 03:53:39 am »

I have an update regarding crackling sounds with WDM enabled and playing music through browser. It seems no matter what latency settings I use, I will experience crackling sounds if I have other programs open (like ms word, adobe reader, task manager) besides chrome and jriver MC.

If any one else experience crackling sounds, try shutting down all other programs and see if this improves the situation.
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