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Author Topic: WDM Problems  (Read 76650 times)

6233638

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WDM Problems
« Reply #150 on: October 27, 2014, 04:31:40 am »

Processing sound on the CPU like this can result in crackling audio if the CPU is either not fast enough, or too busy.
 
Increased buffer sizes (which result in increased latency) usually help to avoid this.
 
However some systems just won't be fast enough, or have other issues like high DPC latency causing interruptions in playback. (crackling)
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mutato

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« Reply #151 on: October 27, 2014, 05:13:28 am »

Processing sound on the CPU like this can result in crackling audio if the CPU is either not fast enough, or too busy.
 
Increased buffer sizes (which result in increased latency) usually help to avoid this.
 
However some systems just won't be fast enough, or have other issues like high DPC latency causing interruptions in playback. (crackling)

If the cpu is not fast enough or the system is having problems with DPC latency, shouldn't this likely produce crackling sounds when playing audio only through MC (not WDM)?
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6233638

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« Reply #152 on: October 27, 2014, 05:54:45 am »

If the cpu is not fast enough or the system is having problems with DPC latency, shouldn't this likely produce crackling sounds when playing audio only through MC (not WDM)?
Playing directly to a hardware device is going to be far more reliable than playing to virtual sound device, being processed by playback software, and then played through a hardware device.
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strend

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« Reply #153 on: October 27, 2014, 09:48:52 am »

No crackling issues or the like - but this is unfortunately unusable.  No matter the buffer selections, there is a huge (.25 second or more) delay.  Hope these issues get sorted out.....this was the feature that made me hit the 'buy' button.

If it matters:

Windows 8.1 Pro x64
2600K
MSI P67A-G45
ASUS STRIX GTX 970
Asus Xonar DX

Didn't test the soundcard as output device though, only HDMI to a reciever.

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JimH

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« Reply #154 on: October 27, 2014, 10:56:24 am »

Please read the instructions at the top again.  You may be adjusting the wrong buffer.
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aproc

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« Reply #155 on: October 27, 2014, 01:07:37 pm »

Adjust the buffer size.  Smaller may be better.

5 ms buffer size fixed the audio problems in Direct Sound mode.  :)  It didn't fix the problems in Wasapi exclusive mode though. Any suggestion for that?
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aproc

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« Reply #156 on: October 27, 2014, 01:14:11 pm »

I'm not familiar with Reclock and MPC-HC. But if you are using JR's driver and JRiver as a render why use another renderer in the chain?
When using Reclock in MPC-HC, I use JRiver for its DSP only. There are some videos that I have which have shifted frames and/ or screwed up aspect ratio. I can fix them in MPC-HC by using the Pan & Scan controls which are not available in JRiver.
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mantis07

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« Reply #157 on: October 29, 2014, 10:52:03 am »

I have tried everything suggested and still have no sound using the Tidal service. I set my default device in Control Panel-Sound to Speakers - JRiver Media Center 20 - I can click on the left/right speakers and get sound. In MC I set up a new zone - set options - audio device to Default Audio Device [Direct Sound] and nothing plays - I'm using the recommended latency etc. In Control Panel-sound I can see that music is playing but no sound. I do have the volume turned up. I'm using MC 20.0.27 and Win 7 64. Any ideas?

thanks
tony
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Arindelle

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« Reply #158 on: October 29, 2014, 11:29:04 am »

In MC I set up a new zone - set options - audio device to Default Audio Device [Direct Sound] and nothing plays - I'm using the recommended latency etc.
thanks
tony
that's your problem -- everything pushed to the windows driver (direct sound) is being shunted to the WDM (IPC) INPUT tha you set as default. You should not be using direct sound as an output (which no longer will work because the new driver has taken over as default) Use your normal output device .. then you will get sound. If it was WASAPI or ASIO exclusive use that or a special output for your DAC, but not Direct Sound. Note that you should have jriver running before launching an external program (or at least media server20.exe)

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mwillems

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« Reply #159 on: October 29, 2014, 11:30:34 am »

In MC I set up a new zone - set options - audio device to Default Audio Device [Direct Sound] and nothing plays - I'm using the recommended latency etc.

The above quoted issue is the problem; set your audio output device in JRiver to target your actual physical soundcard, not the default device.  JRiver's WDM driver is the default device, so by trying to output to in JRiver you're just creating a closed loop.

EDIT: whoops ninja'd by Arindelle  ;D
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mantis07

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« Reply #160 on: October 29, 2014, 11:38:40 am »

AHA! That worked - thanks very much  :)

t
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NiToNi

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« Reply #161 on: October 29, 2014, 11:48:12 am »

Blemming brilliant this - thank you  :)

Incremental value could be added by allowing multiple instances of this WDM driver, e.g. (1+2), (3+4), (5+6) etc.

This way it would be possible to run multiple instance of Shairport4w each outputting audio to a different zone in MC, which would be way cool!

At the moment, I can only do this to two zones:

(1) Shairport4w => JRiver WDM => MC zone A
(2) Shairport4q => ASIOBridge => JRiver ASIO => MC zone B  
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BryanC

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« Reply #162 on: October 29, 2014, 12:33:12 pm »

Quick question: Is the output bitdepth/sample rate dependent on the Windows settings in the Advanced settings in playback devices, or is it dependent on the settings in MC's DSP? Also, do we need to configure the multichannel output in Windows or is this also handled by the MC DSP?
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beats_works

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« Reply #163 on: October 29, 2014, 12:58:33 pm »

Any chance of getting MC "line out" to appear under Windows Recording Tab?  Would be ideal for standalone applications that accept "What U Hear"/"Stereo Mix" as input i.e. Standalone visualizer. 

Alternatively is there a way in MC to bridge output to the "Microphone - Jriver20" which does appear under Recording tab?
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beats_works

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« Reply #164 on: October 29, 2014, 02:57:28 pm »

Any chance of getting MC "line out" to appear under Windows Recording Tab?  Would be ideal for standalone applications that accept "What U Hear"/"Stereo Mix" as input i.e. Standalone visualizer. 

Alternatively is there a way in MC to bridge output to the "Microphone - Jriver20" which does appear under Recording tab?

Halfway to answering my own question with Hi-Fi CABLE & ASIO Bridge. :-)

http://vb-audio.pagesperso-orange.fr/Cable/index.htm
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6233638

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« Reply #165 on: October 29, 2014, 05:53:19 pm »

Quick question: Is the output bitdepth/sample rate dependent on the Windows settings in the Advanced settings in playback devices, or is it dependent on the settings in MC's DSP? Also, do we need to configure the multichannel output in Windows or is this also handled by the MC DSP?
Yes it will be.
Everything in WDM is resampled unless the application is using WASAPI Exclusive Mode.
I don't know whether the MC driver supports WASAPI Exclusive or if it will switch though.
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Matt

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« Reply #166 on: October 29, 2014, 06:13:42 pm »

I don't know whether the MC driver supports WASAPI Exclusive or if it will switch though.

Yes it does.  As a test, I played in MC19 exclusive to MC20's driver.  It worked fine.
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Matt Ashland, JRiver Media Center

6233638

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« Reply #167 on: October 29, 2014, 06:55:10 pm »

Yes it does.  As a test, I played in MC19 exclusive to MC20's driver.  It worked fine.
Excellent. I assumed it would work since Media Center handles all sorts of input & output configurations, but I didn't have the time to test it.
 
What I would say is that this update has reset all the device properties which isn't great.
I was using a custom name ("JRiver Media Center" instead of "Speakers") and icon (the app icon) with the device configured as a full-range 24/44.1 output, all of which was reset.
A number of other programs that I run use the device name to select the default audio device and had to be reconfigured as a result.
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RoderickGI

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« Reply #168 on: October 29, 2014, 08:52:29 pm »

Yes it will be.
Everything in WDM is resampled unless the application is using WASAPI Exclusive Mode.
I don't know whether the MC driver supports WASAPI Exclusive or if it will switch though.

I love the idea of the WDM driver, and I'm using it. But this extra resampling concerns me, and I'm not sure how it fits into the audio data flow when using this new driver.

I know that all Windows applications now send audio data to the MC WDM driver. I know that the MC WDM driver sends the audio data to MC. Then of course MC processes the data according to settings and sends it out to the real audio out device.

But when in the data flow does Windows resample the audio?

I'm also hearing a much larger delay before sound is played when using the WDM driver, which is of some concern, especially with short Windows event sounds. Is or can the WDM audio driver be optimised to improve response, or is this just a fact of life with Windows sound? I'm guessing that if the WDM driver was capable of WASAPI exclusive mode, thereby avoiding resampling (?), the delayed response would be reduced.
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What specific version of MC you are running:MC27.0.27 @ Oct 27, 2020 and updating regularly Jim!                        MC Release Notes: https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Release_Notes
What OS(s) and Version you are running:     Windows 10 Pro 64bit Version 2004 (OS Build 19041.572).
The JRMark score of the PC with an issue:    JRMark (version 26.0.52 64 bit): 3419
Important relevant info about your environment:     
  Using the HTPC as a MC Server & a Workstation as a MC Client plus some DLNA clients.
  Running JRiver for Android, JRemote2, Gizmo, & MO 4Media on a Sony Xperia XZ Premium Android 9.
  Playing video out to a Sony 65" TV connected via HDMI, playing digital audio out via motherboard sound card, PCIe TV tuner

6233638

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« Reply #169 on: October 29, 2014, 09:25:13 pm »

I love the idea of the WDM driver, and I'm using it. But this extra resampling concerns me, and I'm not sure how it fits into the audio data flow when using this new driver.
Windows does high quality resampling if you're using a patched-up Windows 7, or Windows 8/8.1
Set it to 44.1kHz (or whatever your source uses) to avoid it.

But when in the data flow does Windows resample the audio?
Before it gets to MC.
As long as you aren't resampling it a second time (Windows, then MC) you probably don't have to be concerned about it.

I'm also hearing a much larger delay before sound is played when using the WDM driver, which is of some concern, especially with short Windows event sounds. Is or can the WDM audio driver be optimised to improve response, or is this just a fact of life with Windows sound? I'm guessing that if the WDM driver was capable of WASAPI exclusive mode, thereby avoiding resampling (?), the delayed response would be reduced.
The delay is because you're now playing through the driver & MC's buffer, and your sound device's buffer, instead of just the sound device.
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appdevman

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« Reply #170 on: October 29, 2014, 09:59:03 pm »

This rules now I can stream di.fm and use MilkDrop2 along with the rest of the MC20 awesomeness!!
Thanks for this.
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RoderickGI

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« Reply #171 on: October 29, 2014, 11:59:38 pm »

As long as you aren't resampling it a second time (Windows, then MC) you probably don't have to be concerned about it.

That's the problem. There is no setting in Windows to say "Do not resample". As I have multiple sources with different sample rates, and the WDM driver/Windows only allows me to set one sample rate, it is going to resample some sources. Also, as my receiver has limited capability, and I am resampling to the best it can do in many cases, I am likely to resample some audio twice.

I'm no audiophile, so it isn't killing me. But it is of concern. I would like to be able to tell Windows just to send the audio to MC, just as it receives it. No changes.
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What specific version of MC you are running:MC27.0.27 @ Oct 27, 2020 and updating regularly Jim!                        MC Release Notes: https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Release_Notes
What OS(s) and Version you are running:     Windows 10 Pro 64bit Version 2004 (OS Build 19041.572).
The JRMark score of the PC with an issue:    JRMark (version 26.0.52 64 bit): 3419
Important relevant info about your environment:     
  Using the HTPC as a MC Server & a Workstation as a MC Client plus some DLNA clients.
  Running JRiver for Android, JRemote2, Gizmo, & MO 4Media on a Sony Xperia XZ Premium Android 9.
  Playing video out to a Sony 65" TV connected via HDMI, playing digital audio out via motherboard sound card, PCIe TV tuner

6233638

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« Reply #172 on: October 30, 2014, 12:03:29 am »

That's the problem. There is no setting in Windows to say "Do not resample".
WASAPI Exclusive mode allows the application to do this, but the source application has to support it.

As I have multiple sources with different sample rates, and the WDM driver/Windows only allows me to set one sample rate, it is going to resample some sources. Also, as my receiver has limited capability, and I am resampling to the best it can do in many cases, I am likely to resample some audio twice.
Use the highest sample rate that your receiver supports for everything then. That is likely to be the least destructive option.
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aproc

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« Reply #173 on: October 30, 2014, 01:02:31 am »

It would be really great if JRiver's WDM driver can accept 32 bit integer (or floating point audio if possible) in Wasapi exclusive mode. Presently, it accepts up to 24 bit audio only.
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RoderickGI

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« Reply #174 on: October 30, 2014, 03:42:28 am »

WASAPI Exclusive mode allows the application to do this, but the source application has to support it.

Okay. I didn't think I could combine WASAPI Exclusive mode with the MC WDM driver. I will look into that.

Unfortunately for things like Vimeo, movie trailer sites that don't use YouTube (I can run YouTube from within MC) and so on, that use a browser, the browser just plays to the default Windows audio device, so there is no opportunity to use WASAPI. I'll have to look into some of the other apps I use.


Use the highest sample rate that your receiver supports for everything then. That is likely to be the least destructive option.

That's what I am doing now. I guess I made the right choice.
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What specific version of MC you are running:MC27.0.27 @ Oct 27, 2020 and updating regularly Jim!                        MC Release Notes: https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Release_Notes
What OS(s) and Version you are running:     Windows 10 Pro 64bit Version 2004 (OS Build 19041.572).
The JRMark score of the PC with an issue:    JRMark (version 26.0.52 64 bit): 3419
Important relevant info about your environment:     
  Using the HTPC as a MC Server & a Workstation as a MC Client plus some DLNA clients.
  Running JRiver for Android, JRemote2, Gizmo, & MO 4Media on a Sony Xperia XZ Premium Android 9.
  Playing video out to a Sony 65" TV connected via HDMI, playing digital audio out via motherboard sound card, PCIe TV tuner

ray77

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« Reply #175 on: October 30, 2014, 10:44:25 am »

This feature alone is worth the upgrade price! Getting Internet radio stations thru the MC Audio/Connected Media menu was always hit and miss -sometimes the audio would play on the computer speakers, other times thru my DAC and hi-fi speakers. By setting up a new zone and designating MC Speakers as the default instead of my DAC device everything goes thru the DAC and hi-fi system. Is there any difference in performance when I am playing music stored on my computer or should I switch back to my original zone?
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6233638

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« Reply #176 on: October 30, 2014, 08:48:43 pm »

I don't know what changed in 20.0.30 but I'm now getting stuttering every time the track changes in the Tidal app.
I think someone else mentioned similar things happening with system sounds. (I have them disabled)
 
I'm not sure if it's due to the connection being dropped after 10s of silence or something else like the Tidal app stopping and starting playback on track changes.
 
Edit: I'm also having this problem in the middle of tracks when there is a long silence. Please make the IPC cut-off a user preference rather than fixed at 5/10s.
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MonarchX

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« Reply #177 on: November 01, 2014, 09:20:49 am »

Could you provide an option NOT to install it during JRiver Media Center installation/update process? I do not use 99% of JRiver's functions, which is awesome because JRiver allows its users to disable almost all of them through its options. It would be a great idea if this driver could also be prevented from installation. I end up removing it from Device Manager, which is fine, but doing after each update is just extra clicking that doesn't have to be...
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Matt

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« Reply #178 on: November 01, 2014, 10:09:49 am »

Could you provide an option NOT to install it during JRiver Media Center installation/update process? I do not use 99% of JRiver's functions, which is awesome because JRiver allows its users to disable almost all of them through its options. It would be a great idea if this driver could also be prevented from installation. I end up removing it from Device Manager, which is fine, but doing after each update is just extra clicking that doesn't have to be...

It's harmless to just leave it.
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stewart_pk

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« Reply #179 on: November 02, 2014, 11:06:02 pm »

No it's not, I have a script that specifically picks the audio device called "Speakers". Of course JRiver also decided to install a device called "Speakers" and now my script picks the JRiver one instead of the other real first one that I wanted. I had to rename the JRiver "Speakers" to "JRiver Speakers" but of course a JRiver update re-installed a new version of the driver renaming it back.
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6233638

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« Reply #180 on: November 03, 2014, 04:38:32 am »

No it's not, I have a script that specifically picks the audio device called "Speakers". Of course JRiver also decided to install a device called "Speakers" and now my script picks the JRiver one instead of the other real first one that I wanted. I had to rename the JRiver "Speakers" to "JRiver Speakers" but of course a JRiver update re-installed a new version of the driver renaming it back.
I had a similar issue.
 
It would be nice if it could be named something like "JRiver Virtual Audio Device" by default, rather than "Speakers".
 
I didn't check last time, but it should also not configure itself as the default sound device when installed - which I believe is up to the driver, since some USB devices take over the default sound device when connected and others do not, for example.
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Hendrik

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« Reply #181 on: November 03, 2014, 04:48:19 am »

I didn't check last time, but it should also not configure itself as the default sound device when installed - which I believe is up to the driver, since some USB devices take over the default sound device when connected and others do not, for example.

It is not. Windows doesn't allow the driver to control this. It has its own logic to just randomly do this when it feels like it.
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clipper

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« Reply #182 on: November 03, 2014, 03:15:11 pm »

I don't know what changed in 20.0.30 but I'm now getting stuttering every time the track changes in the Tidal app.


I'm having the same issues with the WDM driver and Tidal. 

If someone figures this out I'd be appreciative.
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JimH

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« Reply #183 on: November 04, 2014, 01:01:52 am »

I'm having the same issues with the WDM driver and Tidal.  

If someone figures this out I'd be appreciative.
Please read the first post in this thread.
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clipper

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« Reply #184 on: November 04, 2014, 04:06:06 pm »

I had already tried everything suggested in the first post (selection in sound control panel, new zone, various buffer settings).

Changing the audio device buffer settings got rid of the same type of stuttering and skips with music streamed from Spotify.  

But it didn't help with music streamed from Tidal.

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natehansen66

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« Reply #185 on: November 04, 2014, 06:10:12 pm »

Could we get the option to set how long it takes to drop the stream? I know this was talked about earlier. I build speakers, and in process of doing so I take measurements......lots and lots of measurements. I use MC for eq/xo so it needs to be in the loop. It's a pain having the signal drop after 5 seconds. Then I have to take a "junk" measurement or run a tone generator to pick it back up. When I take a measurement then change eq I've lost the stream. Or if I hesitate a bit too long when taking polar data I lose it then too.
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RoderickGI

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« Reply #186 on: November 04, 2014, 07:54:55 pm »

I made an unconfirmed as yet observation about using the WDM driver, which may assist others in solving stuttering problems.

I wanted to use Airplay to mirror an iPad onto my HTPC and use MC's WDM and DSP including Room Correction to play the audio. So I installed "Air Server" on the HTPC to enable it as an Airplay receiver. The iPad was being used to play Plants vs Zombies 2, so the stream had lots of sound effects rather than a continuous stream like music.

The audio worked, but it was stuttering, or maybe "broken up" is a more correct description. Anyway, after lots of fiddling around, changing back and forth between the real device driver and the JRiver WDM I discovered that if I set Air Server to output to the "Speakers, JRiver Media Centre 20" I got bad audio, but if I set Air Server to output to the Default Windows audio driver the audio was fine. No issues at all. Of course the MC WDM was set as the default audio driver in Windows.

So for those having trouble with the WDM driver, if you are selecting it in your application, try setting the WDM Driver as the Windows default (as advised above) and selecting the Windows Default device in your application instead, if possible. This worked for me.
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What specific version of MC you are running:MC27.0.27 @ Oct 27, 2020 and updating regularly Jim!                        MC Release Notes: https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Release_Notes
What OS(s) and Version you are running:     Windows 10 Pro 64bit Version 2004 (OS Build 19041.572).
The JRMark score of the PC with an issue:    JRMark (version 26.0.52 64 bit): 3419
Important relevant info about your environment:     
  Using the HTPC as a MC Server & a Workstation as a MC Client plus some DLNA clients.
  Running JRiver for Android, JRemote2, Gizmo, & MO 4Media on a Sony Xperia XZ Premium Android 9.
  Playing video out to a Sony 65" TV connected via HDMI, playing digital audio out via motherboard sound card, PCIe TV tuner

clipper

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« Reply #187 on: November 04, 2014, 10:50:46 pm »

So for those having trouble with the WDM driver, if you are selecting it in your application, try setting the WDM Driver as the Windows default (as advised above) and selecting the Windows Default device in your application instead, if possible. This worked for me.

Thanks Roderick.

I wish that were possible to do in the Tidal app, but it's not (at least for me). 

My sound output choices (in the Tidal app) don't include a Windows default device.

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JimH

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« Reply #188 on: November 05, 2014, 12:06:49 am »

Changing the audio device buffer settings got rid of the same type of stuttering and skips with music streamed from Spotify. 

But it didn't help with music streamed from Tidal.
Tidal requires more bandwidth..
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jodokus

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« Reply #189 on: November 05, 2014, 01:04:59 am »

Fantastic guys, great option. I was waiting for this for a long time (used AsioLink until now)! Great!! For the people with latency problems, turn off UAC (really off) in Windows. This solved it for me. One question: is it possible to autostart MC with Windows minimized? 
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6233638

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« Reply #190 on: November 05, 2014, 04:02:14 am »

Tidal requires more bandwidth..
It's nothing to do with bandwidth. If I play directly to any of the other sound devices on my PC (including virtual ones) it sounds fine.
Going through the JRiver WDM driver results in this skipping/stuttering for the first few seconds of every track.
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JimH

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« Reply #191 on: November 05, 2014, 04:12:36 am »

Confirm that you have set the WDM driver as the default in Windows.
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Matt

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WDM Problems
« Reply #192 on: November 05, 2014, 09:27:28 am »

Could we get the option to set how long it takes to drop the stream? I know this was talked about earlier. I build speakers, and in process of doing so I take measurements......lots and lots of measurements. I use MC for eq/xo so it needs to be in the loop. It's a pain having the signal drop after 5 seconds. Then I have to take a "junk" measurement or run a tone generator to pick it back up. When I take a measurement then change eq I've lost the stream. Or if I hesitate a bit too long when taking polar data I lose it then too.

We changed to 10 seconds of silence instead of 5 seconds.
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Matt Ashland, JRiver Media Center

lello

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WDM Problems
« Reply #193 on: November 06, 2014, 01:09:25 am »

Sorry, but it will be for my lack of knowledge of English, and Google does not translate well from English to Italian, but I did not understand one thing: how do I tell the WDM to use a separate sound card? By default it uses the integrated card.

I guess you have to create a new zone, but that rule must be set?

thanks
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natehansen66

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WDM Problems
« Reply #194 on: November 06, 2014, 04:23:59 am »

We changed to 10 seconds of silence instead of 5 seconds.

Ahh, cool. Any reason not to let the user define the value in the advanced options?
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Matt

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WDM Problems
« Reply #195 on: November 06, 2014, 10:28:32 am »

Sorry, but it will be for my lack of knowledge of English, and Google does not translate well from English to Italian, but I did not understand one thing: how do I tell the WDM to use a separate sound card? By default it uses the integrated card.

I guess you have to create a new zone, but that rule must be set?

thanks

It uses whatever soundcard MC is configured to use.  You can configure MC in Options > Audio.
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Matt Ashland, JRiver Media Center

stewart_pk

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WDM Problems
« Reply #196 on: November 06, 2014, 06:16:59 pm »

Well I finally gave up and renamed my actual speakers from "Speakers" to something else because the WDM driver kept taking it's place, thanks JRiver  ;D
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lello

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WDM Problems
« Reply #197 on: November 07, 2014, 12:07:28 pm »

It uses whatever soundcard MC is configured to use.  You can configure MC in Options > Audio.

I know, the problem is that if I go to Options> Audio and choose the driver JRiver media center 20, the sound will come out from the jack on the motherboard while I would like to come out from the sound card Asus Essence.

If I go to Window in the properties of the playback device, it says clearly that it is connected to the motherboard, how do I change this link?
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mwillems

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WDM Problems
« Reply #198 on: November 07, 2014, 12:11:13 pm »

I know, the problem is that if I go to Options> Audio and choose the driver JRiver media center 20, the sound will come out from the jack on the motherboard while I would like to come out from the sound card Asus Essence.

If I go to Window in the properties of the playback device, it says clearly that it is connected to the motherboard, how do I change this link?

You have it backwards; you want the windows sound device to be the JRiver media center 20 device; in JRiver's Options > Audio you want to select the Asus Essence
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gswaul

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WDM Problems
« Reply #199 on: November 08, 2014, 03:51:08 pm »

This is a great addition to MC and it works perfectly for me in 3 of 4 scenarios.

MC to Devialet via Ethernet, works.
Spotify to MC to Devialet via Ethernet, works.
MC to ADL Esprit via USB, works.
Spotify to MC to ADL Esprit, fails.

When I try to play Spotify to MC to ADL Esprit, I get constant stutters/dropouts.  I have tried changing buffer values and latency with no change at higher or lower values.  If I change the default playback device from JR to the ADL Esprit, the problem goes away.  It would be nice if all 4 options worked the same for me.  Any suggestions?

Thanks!
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