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Author Topic: HDMI sound stops when I turn off TV attached to receiver  (Read 29474 times)

thane108

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HDMI sound stops when I turn off TV attached to receiver
« on: November 23, 2014, 03:01:56 pm »

I may be in the wrong forum - please feel free to move this.

I'm having difficulty with settings for my new video card - an EVGA Geforce gts 750ti.

I'm running hdmi out of my PC to my Yamaha receiver.  The receiver has an hdmi out to my Samsung television.  I'm selecting HDMI out via JRiver - I have windows 7.1 set to an analog out for my desktop.  I'm turning on the system with a harmony one remote that automatically turns on the TV, turns on the reciever and sets it to hdmi, and turn on JRiver.

Problem: When I am in theater mode displayed on the TV and play music all is well unless I turn off the TV - then I lose sound.  (This is a new problem that started with the install of the 750ti.)

I can get sound back by going back to my PC - go to options and select the hdmi out (which is now listed as the receiver)

I suspect that what is happening is that the 750ti is "smarter" and somehow "knows" that the hdmi is running through the reciever to the TV - so when I start JRiver the audio choice is not specifically the receiver but some version of the receiver/tv - and when I turn off the TV it kills the sound. 

I don't see a method to have the hdmi out be "generic" or always be specific to the receiver - ignoring the TV component.

Is this some kind of handshaking issue that could be solved by changing the order of the devices turning on? 
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Daveyravey

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Re: HDMI sound stops when I turn off TV attached to receiver
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2014, 03:22:00 pm »

options
audio tab
check the flag "Disable display from turning off"
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JimH

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Re: HDMI sound stops when I turn off TV attached to receiver
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2014, 03:50:17 pm »

I think it's having trouble with HDMI handshaking.  On my receiver and TV, there are some settings that can affect this.  I don't think MC can do much.  Try turning the receiver off and on or unplugging the cable and plugging it back in.
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~OHM~

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Re: HDMI sound stops when I turn off TV attached to receiver
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2014, 04:54:34 pm »

the Yamaha should have a setting for PASS THRU and so should ur TV it's trial and error till you find the right settings.
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dtc

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Re: HDMI sound stops when I turn off TV attached to receiver
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2014, 05:23:24 pm »

Long shot - is the new graphics card HDMI CEC compliant? If so, turning off the TV may change the state of the receiver and the graphics card. If all are CEC, try turning off CEC. Again, a long shot, but CEC can do some strange things.
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~OHM~

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Re: HDMI sound stops when I turn off TV attached to receiver
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2014, 05:42:26 pm »

Long shot - is the new graphics card HDMI CEC compliant? If so, turning off the TV may change the state of the receiver and the graphics card. If all are CEC, try turning off CEC. Again, a long shot, but CEC can do some strange things.

I had forgot all about this....

http://elinux.org/CEC_(Consumer_Electronics_Control)_over_HDMI
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thane108

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Re: HDMI sound stops when I turn off TV attached to receiver
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2014, 10:53:04 pm »

Thanks for the suggestions - I'll look over the responses while I'm away over the next week.

I'll be moving this all to my new build in December so I think I'll wait and sort this out with the new build.

Again - thanks for the quick responses.
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EdBrady

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Re: HDMI sound stops when I turn off TV attached to receiver
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2014, 01:41:01 am »

I have a setup very similar to yours -- Geforce gt730 card, Yamaha receiver, Sharp TV.  I also have a computer monitor connected via DVI.

Here's what I've found:

It is normal for the HDMI audio device to change depending on what's turned on.  With the receiver only turned on, it will be the device, and with the TV on, it will be the device --no matter whether you have the receiver configured to pass through the audio to the TV or not.

This means that turning the TV on or off will interrupt playback in MC, since the device it is using disappears in the process.  I don't think there's anything you can do about this.

In my system, the windows default audio device is the TV when it's on, the receiver when it's on and the TV is off, and the built-in spdif port on the motherboard when both the TV and receiver are off.

I've found that MC works well when I set the receiver to be its default device.  It will switch to the TV when it's on without my doing anything, and it will switch to spdif as well when both the TV and receiver are off.
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thane108

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Re: HDMI sound stops when I turn off TV attached to receiver
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2014, 09:11:43 am »

Thanks Ed - great to hear from someone with a similar build addressing the issues!

It looks like I'll have several options to connect to my receiver/tv in my new build.  My new motherboard (asus 707-a) has optical and hmdi out, my video card has hdmi out, and I have an old soundblaster titantium xifi that has optical out.  I'm not sure how that will all work together - but i might be able to combine various cards:

HMDMI out via video card directly to TV with sound out via hdmi on motherboard?  or sound out via hdmi motherboard?  etc.

I'll play with all that when I get the build up in a few weeks and see what combo works best.

I'll very likely be back with more questions!
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franswilco

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Re: HDMI sound stops when I turn off TV attached to receiver
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2014, 10:11:50 am »

I'm using an AMD motherboard with onboard video, connected to a Marantz AV7005 processor, connected to a Philips Aurea TV. When listening to audio from the computer, with the TV switched on, there wasn't a problem. However, a few minutes after switching off the TV screen, the audio would stop playing. If I'm not mistaken, this is very similar to what you're describing.

It drove me crazy. Why must my TV be on all the time when listening to music? That's silly. It turned out this has to do with HDMI handshake issues, related to the HDCP protocol. After researching this problem for quite some time, I eventually found this product. It's expensive, but it works like a charm:

http://www.gefen.com/kvm/product.jsp?prod_id=8005

Gefen HDMI Detective Plus

I've got it set up between my HTPC and the Marantz AV7005.
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Bill Kearney

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Re: HDMI sound stops when I turn off TV attached to receiver
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2014, 10:21:21 am »

Aw man, welcome to Hell.  HDMI handshaking can be a devil of a problem, often with no cure.  Sometimes the only solution is to give up on trying to force older gear to work and buy new stuff KNOWN TO WORK ALREADY.  Honest to God, I'm here to tell you just because "it ought to work" doesn't mean it EVER WILL.

So if you're building something new then consider checking whether the graphic card and related drivers are known to work with both that receiver AND the television.  

There's another online forum that's fantastic for AV related stuff.  http://www.avsforum.com/forum/index.php
Start there are search on your specific model number of AVR (audio video receiver) and your TV.  Look for what has or hasn't worked for others.  Then search for the video card and drivers.  You really want to focus on what DIDN'T work with those.  The absence of posts on your model should NOT be taken as a good sign.  

Don't want to sound negative, but I've wasted far too much time in the past when it was never going to work.  Upgrading to recent model AVR and TV eliminated a metric-eff-ton of hassles I've put up with in the past.
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Daveyravey

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Re: HDMI sound stops when I turn off TV attached to receiver
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2014, 10:24:01 am »

This may help if you cant afford a Gefen unit.

I used this guide a while ago when i had audio and/or black screen issues. It does work but you need to set up some scheduled tasks in windows to run a batch file

http://www.thehtpc.net/htpc-tips-and-tweaks/solving-your-hdmi-handshake-issues-once-and-for-all/

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ldoodle

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Re: HDMI sound stops when I turn off TV attached to receiver
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2014, 02:22:04 pm »

It's the graphics card and/or drivers.  This annoys the hell out of me too.

PC (AMD 7450) > Receiver > TV. Turn TV off all playback stops
Sky+ STB > Receiver > TV. Turn TV off all playback continues
PS3 > Receiver > TV. Turn TV off all playback continues

So the receiver, PS3 and Sky+ STB can all 'handle' the TV being off to continue playback.  Just not the PC.
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thane108

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Re: HDMI sound stops when I turn off TV attached to receiver
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2014, 09:17:55 am »

The only no-cost solution I found was to run the HDMI cable from the PC directly to the TV and send sound via optical directly to the receiver.

I did find a discussion on the Intel forum - some motherboards have addressed the issue with new bios firmware.  That is reported to work when the driver software for some video cards are also updated.  Some gigabyte motherboards seem to have resolved the issue.  That wasn't the case with my Asus z97-A motherboard working with my Geefroce GTX 750ti..  Maybe someday.

Anyone considering a new graphics card should probably do a little research if you plan on connecting hdmi to receiver to TV - and if you would like to turn off the TV after selecting music.

Question - I have a few hi-def 5 channel music downloads.  They still play surround across my optical - with the receiver set to surround.  I only get two channel when I go "pure" on the receiver.

How much am I giving up by switching from HDMI to optical on my receiver?  (This is a little over my head and I would like to understand the pros and cons.)

Thanks!

PS - I love my new system.  Z97-A, m.2 240 gig SSD, i5 4690K, GTX 750ti - all great except the HDMI issues.

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Bill Kearney

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Re: HDMI sound stops when I turn off TV attached to receiver
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2014, 09:36:22 am »

You're dependent upon how well your setup handles routing the audio, both the drivers and the playback program are involved.  That and it depends on the source material having what's needed in the first place.  The short answer is, there's no short answer.

This is excellent advice:
Quote
Anyone considering a new graphics card should probably do a little research if you plan on connecting hdmi to receiver to TV

The trouble is you're also dependent on the drivers and software STAYING in working condition.  Sometimes it's useful to NOT allow a driver to update once you've gotten the key functionality YOU NEED to stay working.  In a world where people want the latest and greatest drivers (often for video game performance) you run the risk of losing the critical functionality necessary for more mundane features like home theater support.  The video card folks don't usually focus on this, instead going for the gamer twitch factor. 

Intel's support for video chipsets is HORRIBLE.  I don't see that changing anytime soon, thus if the key features I need out of a driver don't work then I bail and install a card that does work.  'Free' video output from motherboard video often ends up costing way too much in time and headaches.
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thane108

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Re: HDMI sound stops when I turn off TV attached to receiver
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2014, 09:48:38 am »

Thanks.

I was trying to get at the pros/cons of apparently sending a 2 channel signal over opotical versus sending the 5 channel over hdmi.

HDMI using "straight" on my yamaha receiver I get surround without asking the reciever to convert the feed.

Optical using "straight" I get two channel unless I ask Yamaha to convert to surround.

So I guess I understand that Yamaha has to process the optical two channel - and any processing is not a good thing with hi-def.  Quality would depend on the Yamaha.

Have I got that right?

Just curious - I don't have that many multi-channel downloads and they sound fined to me across the optical.
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Bill Kearney

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Re: HDMI sound stops when I turn off TV attached to receiver
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2014, 10:05:58 am »

Oh, we can fall down an endless rabbit hole if we try to discuss what does or doesn't "sound fine".

AVRs (audio video receivers) have been playing games with source material for ages.  There's all kinds of trickery involved taking a plain stereo source and 'jazzing it up' for output through multiple speakers.  When you get into trouble is when there are sources involved that can do more than just stereo.  Here HDMI has a bunch of 'negotiation' that the devices undertake behind the scenes.  The problem is it can be VERY difficult to determine what can REALLY be done, versus what some half-assed software in the devices is screwing up.  You may have a source disk that has a ton of alternative audio encodings on it.  But if your player doesn't understand those then you won't be able to get to them.  Likewise, if the AVR doesn't understand those formats then it'd never ask the source to provide them (or it'd get it wrong). 

Thus a lot of people just mash the "MOVIE" button on the remote and never get to hear what their equipment can truly provide.

Headaches yet?  If you want to really get into AV handling then consider http://www.avsforum.com/forum for more detailed discussions.

As for optical, it's capable of passing a lot of different formats (not all).  It would depend on what source formats you've got and how your software is configured to pass them.
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mp3jockey

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Re: HDMI sound stops when I turn off TV attached to receiver
« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2014, 07:14:04 pm »

Guess I don't understand why you want to turn the display off?  You can set the screen saver to blank the screen, and I believe MC even has a setting you can use. With backlights off, the power use, even on older LCD screens is pretty minimal, and certainly cheaper than hair transplants.

I had the same disconnect issues with two different receivers, A Yamaha with 3 HDMI inputs, and a Denon with 7 HDMI inputs: as soon as the display was switched off, I would lose playback...most of the time until I turned the display back on, some times the sound would go silent for 10 seconds and then come back on. I was never able to discover a pattern with either receiver.  Been using a BB Zotac box with a Celeron SU 2300, NVIDIA ION with 8GB RAM with HDMI out as a MC server for  3 years now.  For those times when I do not need to have the large display going, I went with running the MC server "headless" using either RDS or Logmein, power up MC server from another windows device ( surface Pro3), then I can use an iOS or android device as a remote control if I like, or continue with the surface pro .  No worries about interrupted sound through the main HT system.  I sometimes use the Surface Pro3 as the player, plug in my cans, and I'm set.  This may not suit your MC use, but it sure "solved" my HDMI handshaking issues between components.
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bv1pacb

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Re: HDMI sound stops when I turn off TV attached to receiver
« Reply #18 on: December 24, 2014, 07:34:30 am »

The only no-cost solution I found was to run the HDMI cable from the PC directly to the TV and send sound via optical directly to the receiver.

This is how I do it too, with optical audio to the DAC, but then, I'm not interested in surround sound.
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thane108

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Re: HDMI sound stops when I turn off TV attached to receiver
« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2015, 08:12:07 pm »

I solved this issue by using two hdmi cables - one directly to the TV and one to the receiver.

With the TV/Receiver/Media Center all on, you can set the default sound device to the receiver (which now shows as an option).  Same thing in audio in JRiver.

Set JRiver to the other hdmi out - tree & view - monitor.

Now you can turn off the TV and the music will not be interrupted.

This is an improvement over the optical out soultion as you get 9600 multi-channel.

Life is good.
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BartMan01

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Re: HDMI sound stops when I turn off TV attached to receiver
« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2015, 09:12:57 am »

http://www.amazon.com/Gefen-EXT-HDMI-EDIDP-HDmi-Detective-Plus/dp/B001RIMZUW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1426774160&sr=8-1&keywords=gefen+hdmi+detective

The Gefen HDMI Detective Plus is 33% cheaper on Amazon than on the Gefen website.  I use this on my main HTPC, and it solved all HDMI handshake issues there.  The downside is that it may not be 4k compliant if that matters to you right now.
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thane108

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Re: HDMI sound stops when I turn off TV attached to receiver
« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2015, 09:23:50 am »

The Gefen was next on my list., actually on my Amazon wish list, but I'm satisfied with using the two hdmi cables - one less piece of equipment in the chain, and no expense for me, and I now have mulit-chanel at 9600.  That's all I really wanted.

One advantage of the Gefen over using the two hdmi as I described is that when I switch sources on my TV I have to toggle on/off to get a handshake, but I can live with that.  I'm thinking my old Samsung TV is the problem with that issue - I keep hoping it will go belly-up so I can purchase a larger screen, but the darn thing keeps on ticking.

Thanks for the suggestion.
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thane108

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Re: HDMI sound stops when I turn off TV attached to receiver
« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2015, 08:29:58 pm »

It seems that if you have three (or more) connections using your GeForce 970 you need to be aware of the implications - it matters which connection to use with each device. Here is what I found.

1) Displayport has issues. It is a little unruly. It doesn't like it if you turn off the monitor. Afterwards you can geta "no signal" error that requires some kind of action, such as a reboot, to restore the signal. I like to turn off my monitor so this is a non-starter for me.
2) I have one HDMI out, one Displayport, and two dvi-out connections on my GeForce 970. Since I'm not using the Displayport, that leaves the two dvi connectons and the HDMI out.
3) The only way my home entertainment system will work given the above is to use the HDMI connection to the monitor, with one DVI going to the television in the other room, and one DVI going to my AVR. If the HDMI goes to the AVR, you can get some strange issues upon reboot as the GeForce 970 seems to want to grant priority to the HDMI connection (no matter what you assigned in Nvida control panel).
4) Also, don't forget to go into windows and configure the speaker (in my case the AVR).

So this worked well for me:

HDMI to monitor - I get 1440 at 60mz.
DVI to TV
Separate DVI to AVR (so I can turn off TV without losing audio through receiver)

Detail above intended to help someone else avoid trial and error. That said, I'm sure there are multiple ways to skin this cat. But this works, and I am way past done!
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millst

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Re: HDMI sound stops when I turn off TV attached to receiver
« Reply #23 on: April 13, 2015, 12:32:44 pm »

I think some people have had luck with these kinds of issues by overriding the EDID settings for their display driver:

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/26-home-theater-computers/1091403-edid-override-thread.html

I use a Dr HDMI, which is basically the same as the HDMI Detective. It works great as the computer never loses its HDMI lock, no matter what happens on the receiver/display end. Obvious down side is the cost.

-tm

[Link added by JimH]
Dr HDMI
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thane108

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Re: HDMI sound stops when I turn off TV attached to receiver
« Reply #24 on: April 14, 2015, 03:00:43 pm »

What GPU do you have?  I've read that NVidia has HDCP issues with HDMI Detective.

Also, such a newbie question, OTA recordings.  If there are HDCP issus will they play?
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thane108

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Re: HDMI sound stops when I turn off TV attached to receiver
« Reply #25 on: April 14, 2015, 03:12:25 pm »

By the way, I think I finally understand the source of some of my issues.

HDMI I connect GPU to AVR
HDMI 2 connects GPU directly to the TV.

JRiver sends video directly to TV and audio through the receiver.  TV now can be turned off and auido continues.

HDMI 3 connects AVR to TV so TV acts as monitor for AVR (and allows PS3 to pass Netflix through the AVR to the TV)

But- when the TV is set to "listen" to the AVR the computer GPU senses that and tries sending video/audio to the TV through the receiver at the same time that it tries to send video/audio directly to the tV across the other hdmi.  When that happens a conflict occurs and I lose control of my primary (at computer) monitor.  Control of the primary monitor is restored when I switch the TV source away from the receiver.

Everything is working fine with the above exception so I'll probably leave well enough alone.  But I'm thinking about enabling mulit gpu on bios and then send signal to the receiver via Intel onboard gpu so the GeForce 970 only serves the TV directly - thinking that not running both the AVR and TV off the same GPU eliminate the conflict.  Or it could be worse.
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MovieViking

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Re: HDMI sound stops when I turn off TV attached to receiver
« Reply #26 on: July 27, 2015, 06:31:29 am »

I have had an almost identical problem for years and on several combinations of machines and graphics cards.
I have finally discovered a simple solution:
Using the "Advanced options" - "Show all Resolutions" on the Windows graphics drivers properties I have set the screen to 1920 x 1080 25 interlaced both when the TV is on and when it is off and the receiver is set as HDMI endpoint.
The audio now pauses for two seconds but resumes otherwise flawlessly whether it is PCM or DTS.

The main point is not the exact settings but that they are set 100% identically when the TV is on and when it is off.
This eluded me for a while as Windows reported 1920x1080 whether or not the TV was on but only in the "Show all..." was it shown that when the TV is on it was set to 1920x1080 59p.
For some reason the only available option when it is off is 25i - probably because the receiver and the TV reports the two different settings as their native or preferred settings - and Windows automatically shifts the output between the formats when the TV is turned on or off.

The screenshot is in Danish but I hope you get the picture anyway  :)

BTW. I use TeamViewer to remote control the music whenever there is no reason to have the TV on and it works like a charm - much better than RDP and without the audio loops that creates  :)

Br JP

- oh and just remembered: Your solution using two HDMI's is smart but for some reason my NUC messes up the display of everything when the TV is turned off - actually it reverts to thinking it is a laptop with internal screen but everything is shown in odd proportions and no settings can be changed. This also happens whenever the receiver is set to another HDMI input than the on the NUC is connected to.
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ldoodle

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Re: HDMI sound stops when I turn off TV attached to receiver
« Reply #27 on: July 29, 2015, 03:52:41 pm »

I recently upgraded both my GPU (wanted more power) and receiver (last one had a HDMI board fault), and this problem has gone away.  I can now turn off my screen and everything still works.

GPU is now a GTX 750 TI
Receiver is now a Pioneer VSX-529K

Unfortunately I don't know which one solved the problem, if not both of them.
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MovieViking

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Re: HDMI sound stops when I turn off TV attached to receiver
« Reply #28 on: July 29, 2015, 06:07:42 pm »

@ ldoodle
My guess would be that your new receiver keeps sending the graphics card the same EDI regardless of the TV's status. Much as if you had put an Gefen HDMI Detective in the chain.

In my experience the "playback device invalidated" problem is a generic problem with HDMI across JRiver, Foobar, Win 7, 8, 8.1, Mac OS etc. as long as turning the screen on or off alters the EDI sent to the source. Even though it is sort of solved in my case, it still drives me nuts because it forces me to use mediocre picture settings in order to have the sound working properly.
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