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Author Topic: Are you planning a win 10 universal application?  (Read 4467 times)

Krunchy

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Are you planning a win 10 universal application?
« on: December 18, 2014, 05:51:44 am »

Hello,

i know you are thinking about making JRiver more user friendly, and that is my wish too. When i see some streaming website, or some mobile appplication, thats the kind of thing i would like to have and not a (too) highlty sophisticated software for geeks ;)
My concern and my surprise is not to find any JRiver PLAYER on mobile platform. We only have access to remotes, that means the pc need to be working. Today JRiver is invisble on hte mobile player market, and this is the market of today and tomorrow.
For example, the multiplcation of mobile speakers or amplificator with bluetooh aptx (such as this one http://www.qobuz.com/fr-fr/info/Hi-Fi-Guide%2FBancs-d-essai%2FMicromega-MyAmp-Qobuzissime-pour176454?utm_medium=e-mail&utm_source=newsletter_qobuz_hifi_guide_184) might also help to get rid of the pc. The lack of solution on nas is also a problem, but this not the same 'target'.

The integration of streaming in JRiver is also problematic, even if you reallized something very interesting with the wdm driver.

So for me if you want to reach more people, and to take the train of mobile as a player, maybe you should consider developping a w10 application, intregrating both local and streaming music and video. And it woul feed pc (your core business) and mobile platform. Tomorrow win 10 will read flac and mkv, why shoul i need so much JRiver? exeptt for some very specific reason or use, i will go to the windows player

These are my humble thought, please take it like this. As you asked before "ideas" from people who don't comment regularly on the forum, you have one here.

Best wishes,

Guillaume
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astromo

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Re: Are you planning a win 10 universal application?
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2014, 06:52:51 am »

My concern and my surprise is not to find any JRiver PLAYER on mobile platform. We only have access to remotes, that means the pc need to be working. Today JRiver is invisble on hte mobile player market, and this is the market of today and tomorrow.

Not quite true in some sense.

JRiver has some presence via Pono. I don't think that the "invisible" reference is entirely fair - depending on your definition.

That said, users have asked the question around MC being available via an extension of, say, Gizmo on Android. Never hurts to ask another time. Eventually, change may result.
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Krunchy

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Re: Are you planning a win 10 universal application?
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2014, 08:00:10 am »

Thanks for your reply

Of course, JRiver is present in streaming with pono, and some other streaming services.
But what about the integration? easy of use?
Just have a look on the xbox music interface on W8? or VLC (oin progress) . I find it easy to use and beautifull, you have access to streaming and local, informations about the artists...of course it looks maybe too simple, compared to what is JRiver. But how many options on 200 (wet finger) are really usefull and used for a simple use of it? 10? 20? People wants good sound (and not even always), playlist, access to streaming and local (my feeling) synchronisation between different platform and something beautifull, userfriendly. And my wife could use it (by the way, what is the male/female ration of the people on the forum??)

I'm a bit caricatural maybe, sorry for that, but it is a longtime i want to share this.
Note also that i love jriver and use it everyday with a lot of pleasure. But this a steady use (sit in front of computer). A billion smartphones were solled last year. How much tomorow? Sometimes i feel JRiver is like windows a few years ago, who didn't see the mobile revolution coming.
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csimon

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Re: Are you planning a win 10 universal application?
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2014, 10:27:58 am »

I agree with you!
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glynor

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Re: Are you planning a win 10 universal application?
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2014, 03:28:10 pm »

A few things..

#1. Writing to the WinRT API, which is required for developing for the Windows 8 "Metro" style and Windows 10 "Universal" apps would require a full rewrite from the ground up.  Win32 is not supported.  They cannot port the existing code, by and large.

#2. Releasing one of these apps would require distribution via the Microsoft App Store.  This is essentially identical to the Apple App Store, as far as policy and whatnot.

#3. This would have no impact on the ability to use any streaming services.  In fact, it might make the negotiations with 3rd Party streaming services MORE challenging because they'd see it as direct competition for their own apps.

#4. While I agree that mobile is a big part of the future, I disagree strongly if you're suggesting the desktop will go away.  It won't.  That much is absolutely, painfully clear from Microsoft's results with Windows 8 and their actions with Windows 10.

#5. Of those billions of mobile devices, exactly how many of them are Windows devices?  And of those few, how many are high-end devices where the user market is likely to support a premium $50 application?

Of course, #5 is the real killer.  JRiver does have a very nice iOS app, and their Android app has been around for a long time.  While they are called "remotes" they include streaming functionality, and work extremely well.  Robert (the developer of JRemote) has already stated that local playback is on his "to do" list, so I think that is coming in the future.

So, the question is not "Is mobile worth it".  The question is: "Is Microsoft's mobile platform worth it?"

That answer is maybe slightly less clear than it was with Windows 8, but it is by no means a slam dunk.  I'd, personally, like to see them have a real flagship device that sticks around and is well supported in the market for 18-20 months, and an ecosystem of paid, premium apps from other vendors that are doing well, before I'd invest the massive amount of resources that would be required to build a custom app (or purchase and improve one of the existing ones).

But, you know, I don't work for JRiver.  I'm just this guy, you see.
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ssands

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Re: Are you planning a win 10 universal application?
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2014, 04:00:07 pm »

Lots of interesting points, Glynor.

I thought that one of the new directions with .Net was cross platform. However, I don't know (or maybe it hasn't been announced yet?) when that will happen and of course, what the fidelity of the ports will be.

For what it's worth, my primary use of Gizmo is for streaming when I'm somewhere in the house that is not yet hooked up to audio. It's great.
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Krunchy

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Re: Are you planning a win 10 universal application?
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2014, 06:24:09 am »

Thanks Glynor for your interesting reply.

Of course i don't have a clue about how to change from the actual jriver 20 to a windows 10 app  ;D
But i thougut it would be a step ahead for pc also (core business of JRiver), as user friendly solutions are asked and thought by many, and after mobile. You are right to say that the amount of wp users is not big enough to make the effort, but what about the pc users? In a way, JRiver is designed for htpc users, but are they so many? Smart tv and cloud will do the job tomorrow anyway.

Another thougt: if you look at itunes, you can find it on mobile, pc, mac, as a player, with a video market and soon with a streaming service. Of course JRiver is not Apple,  but i think this is a good strategy. But i'm happy to read that local playback is on his way.

Your point #3 is very true i can't deny. But JRiver has partnership with pono, hd tracks, amazon. It could be a start. And there could be plugins, like in Kodi (Xbmc)

Maybe in the end my first concern is not w10 app , but user experience that i find complicated. Theater view is clearly not an answer for me.

Thanks for listenning, and sorry for the mess and the writing.
I might be wrong a lot of things, in the realization especially (technical, financial). But, and despite the excellence of this program and real improvements, i just feel JRiver is stucked in the old way of listenning music and watching videos.
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csimon

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Re: Are you planning a win 10 universal application?
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2014, 06:54:27 am »

You are right to say that the amount of wp users is not big enough to make the effort, but what about the pc users? In a way, JRiver is designed for htpc users, but are they so many? Smart tv and cloud will do the job tomorrow anyway.
...
Maybe in the end my first concern is not w10 app , but user experience that i find complicated. Theater view is clearly not an answer for me.
....
i just feel JRiver is stucked in the old way of listenning music and watching videos.

You are quite right I think. Theater View was designed at least a decade ago and was designed for use with a keyboard and/or remote control as a 10' interface.  It needs a revamp as it stands as it has usability issues. The JRiver team seem oblivious to its problems and each time the subject is brought they need specific examples of what is wrong.

The touch interface has also been completely ignored. There is Gizmo, but it is very primitive and needs a lot of work. There are third paty apps, such as eos on BB and Android, and you have to pay extra. JRemote on iOS is now in the JRiver camp but the lifecycle of this product is short and last year early purchasers were abandoned.

At the very least, Theater View needs to be made touch-friendly so that it can be used with desktop touch screens (all in one PCs), laptops, as well as handheld Windows tablets.  It doesn't necessarily mean rewriting it as a "Metro" app and it doesn't mean that the desktop is going away. It just means catering for the new kid on the block, which are touch devices, (although they're quite old kids by now) and catching up with other software like Plex which has fully embraced client-server and multi-platform clients.

My most recent request for a revamp of Theater View can be found in the Features Request thread of July 2014 (http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=90662.msg622897#msg622897 - it also contains a link to previous discussion on Theater View usability from October 2013). And the same request for MC19 from July 2013 - http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=82006.msg559203#msg559203



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csimon

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Re: Are you planning a win 10 universal application?
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2014, 09:19:21 am »

This article just caught my eye. "Amazon brings 4K streaming to Prime Instant Video in the UK" - http://www.engadget.com/2014/12/19/amazon-prime-instant-video-4k-uk/

I can't begin to tell you how irrelevant this is. For a start, not many people have 4K TVs at all. Also, superfast broadband speeds are getting a stronghold now in the UK but there are still many places, even in the centre of London, that still struggle on speeds.  I get 0.4Mbps for example, and even low-res low-bit-rate Youtube is terrible and unviewable in real-time.

However, at lesat these companies are now seeing the future, driving the future too, and bringing these services out so that people who are able to use the latest technology can do so and making their media experiences richer. It makes money for them too, obviously, or they wouldn't provide the services.

However, Theater View feels very much like Oh, standard definition TV and basic ADSL isn't going away anytime soon, so there's no point in providing new services until the majority of people have equipment that can view it, or at least 5 years after everyone else has brought out the service.

Just being brutaully open...
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TCube

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Re: Are you planning a win 10 universal application?
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2014, 09:41:14 am »

Guillaume

You made my day ! I could details points I kind of agree with you but you wrote it BETTER ! [aka Mobile Device / Streaming / Windows issues]
Now,  shall we hear the BS all together. Like any topic which scratch a bit the "surface" the answers reveal a lot [answer N4 is so far the greatest "I strongly disagree ... I can state the case against every issue here... but I'm not working here] (*)
This is a post be to followed 4 me ...    "I'm just this guy, you see".
Rgds
TC

(*) JimH will just answer  ... " bump" as in hereunder, God that's no help about prospective ;)
 http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=94063.0
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Vocalpoint

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Re: Are you planning a win 10 universal application?
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2014, 11:33:05 am »

However, Theater View feels very much like Oh, standard definition TV and basic ADSL isn't going away anytime soon, so there's no point in providing new services until the majority of people have equipment that can view it, or at least 5 years after everyone else has brought out the service. Just being brutally open...

+1 brother.

We use Theater View but I do cringe every time I look at it - luckily I find our movie fast and get it out of sight.

It certainly does have that 1999 vibe going for it....

VP
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BartMan01

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Re: Are you planning a win 10 universal application?
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2014, 03:49:00 pm »

Guillaume

You made my day ! I could details points I kind of agree with you but you wrote it BETTER ! [aka Mobile Device / Streaming / Windows issues]
Now,  shall we hear the BS all together. Like any topic which scratch a bit the "surface" the answers reveal a lot [answer N4 is so far the greatest "I strongly disagree ... I can state the case against every issue here... but I'm not working here] (*)
This is a post be to followed 4 me ...    "I'm just this guy, you see".


I'm sorry but I have to defend glynor here.  He is probably the most helpful person currently posting on this forum and he does it of his own free will on his own free time.  He is just pointing out the real world issues behind the request and why it might be about a billion times more complicated that you might think to do what the OP is asking.  You are TOTALLY twisting what he said in point number 4.  It is his OPINION (shared by many) that the desktop (where JRiver currently lives for most of us) is not going anywhere anytime soon.  He is not disagreeing with the OP other than inferring that the OP thinks the desktop is going away and he disagrees with that one point.

His comment that he does not actually work for JRiver is because many people seem to assume that he does and he does not want his views to be seen as official views of JRiver.
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TCube

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Re: Are you planning a win 10 universal application?
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2014, 03:26:41 am »

BartMan01,

That brings great comfort ... hum.

Anyway I sense the question raised here about "Win 10 connectivity". was : Mobile Device, Streaming,  Windows coding issues, Client-Server architecture, ect.

MC has to face radical Market Global change as Krunchy would expect.

Connected objects are driving the economic growth in the computer mass production industry : but it's not in the DNA of MC.
That makes Glynor' arguments not entirely false but sometimes so far fetched it becomes extremely funny.


TC
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JimH

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Re: Are you planning a win 10 universal application?
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2014, 08:50:43 am »

MC has to face radical Market Global change as Krunchy would expect.

Connected objects are driving the economic growth in the computer mass production industry : but it's not in the DNA of MC.
I'm sorry you don't see it, but we are well aware of the changes in technology.  With Robert Ryan (JRemote author), we hired a full time person this year with great phone expertise.

MC is fully network aware.  You can record TV on a PC, then watch it on a phone now.  Any new important devices will be supported, but don't expect MC to talk to your fridge anytime soon.

On the other hand, the Linux version of MC will probably appear in devices this year.  The Id is an example of where this might lead.

The topic was about Win10.  It isn't out yet, so we're not focused on it.
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TCube

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Re: Are you planning a win 10 universal application?
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2014, 11:33:04 am »

Quote
The topic was about Win10.  It isn't out yet, so we're not focused on it.

Not really far far far away (Donkey's line in Shrek)
1 Octobre 2014 - Technical Preview
Q1 2015 - Developer Preview
Avril 2015 - /BUILD/ - Universal Apps
Q2/Q3 2015 (Mai/Juin) - Consumer Preview
Q3 2015 (Aout?) - RTM (Release To Manufacturing)
Q3/Q4 2015 (Septembre/Octobre) - GA

Quote
Any new important devices will be supported, but don't expect MC to talk to your fridge anytime soon.
Hope for the best with Windows Phone + MC. And no, I do not wish to speak to my fridge unless it had that lovely Cortana female voice and French accent.

TC
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glynor

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Re: Are you planning a win 10 universal application?
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2014, 01:22:53 pm »

"Just this guy, you see" was a poorly remembered reference to Zaphod Beeblebrox.

I'm not going to respond to anything else because I said my piece.  I'm not against having a metro-style port of MC, and I'm certainly not against more development for other mobile platforms.  But from a resource allocation point of view, I think the time would be better spent developing for iOS and Android, if forced to choose between those and developing for WinRT.

I didn't comment specifically on the mixed-in streaming services discussion (which seems to have nothing to do with a Windows mobile port), but I've commented on those elsewhere.  The core problem there isn't JRiver's willingness to develop plugins for streaming services.  It is that the streaming services don't allow it.  That all takes partner relationships and business development meetings and... Frankly:

* Bigger than JRiver is (in the market and in team size).
* More well connected with insiders, mostly in the Bay area (and sometimes New York).
* Payola.
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Krunchy

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Re: Are you planning a win 10 universal application?
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2014, 11:53:31 am »

Thanks again for your reply to my question.

So if w10 app is not an alternative for JRiver in terms of "step into user friendlyness", what will it be then? For computers i mean
Because when i see the "less one hour request project", i don't see how it goes in this direction (user friendly).
Maybe an idea?


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