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[JonnyRedHed]

These maybe dumb newbie questions, but its been bugging me to know these answers.


Fidelizer Pro & Audiophile Optimizer,   what are these things really doing and are they really needed or not to make JRiver even better on an up to date windows PC.

If so, then would it be a good idea for the jriver dev's to develop their own version of these combined and intergraded into a new section in the tools/options.   With a basic section showing first with some more softer (safer) options leading up to extreme, with single one sentence explanations.

A more advanced section could then be un-hidden if one wants to go further with permanent options and more extreme ones etc.  I wouldn't want to go further than the 'basic' section offerings.  I run just one computer so need things to not be permanent.  Often working/messing about on the web etc for many hours whilst listing to music from jriver, and at other times just listening to music.

In my mind at least if they do offer good benefits then having them integrated into jriver would mean I could trust the options.   Knowing its integrated into the best player.   All options disabled at first install, and with a direct help wiki page linked to explain in detail all the integrated options.

But if on the other hand they don't really offer anything to make jriver and even better player on windows os and are just not needed.  I apologise for wasting a thread and your time.

[JimH]

They're tinkering with the OS.  It is a bad idea to do so.

[JonnyRedHed]

They're tinkering with the OS.  It is a bad idea to do so.

I thought as much,  thanks.   I've been reading various threads and had a very mixed and confused opinion of them. 

[windowsx]

Fidelizer does lots of things including tinkering OS as Jim said but that's not what it's really about. Allow me to explain here

1. It utilizes Windows' Multimedia Realtime framework (MMCSS and such) to configure multimedia task in favor of audio playback. You can see some DAW software having MMCSS feature. Fidelizer does similar stuff like that but in its own way. This isn't tinkering OS but optimizing core audio using safe code and instructions provided by Microsoft. Again, it's all about using Microsoft stuff and doesn't tamper anything else outside what OS originally offers.

2. It manages processes like priority and core affinity. This is some what tinkering OS like Jim said and not always safe to do so default configuration won't perform this.

3. It can shutdown non-audio services leaving only audio ones or other required features like Network. Since shutting down service doesn't seem to be healthy activity for most people. It's a feature for Extremist that was once removed and brought back again upon request.

In free version of Fidelizer, all these things are done temporary and will not cause any side effects after restart. Default configuration will apply only MMCSS optimizations which is on safe field. You can test this software without taking risks since there's no possibility to damage your machine without permanent modification. You can simply delete this software if you don't like it later.

For more elaborated information about Fidelizer, you can visit www.Fidelizer-Audio.com and read in details there. I'm sure it'll be ears opener once you give it a chance.

Regards,
Windows X

[mojave]

Last week I tried the trial of Tidal. Streaming the lossless audio was giving me some dropouts and pops regardless of JRiver settings. I tried using Fidelizer in Network Streaming mode and it allowed me to set the JRiver Live Playback Latency to minimum and buffering to either something less than 50 ms (I can't remember the exact setting). I had no more dropouts/pops with Tidal. Audio with ripped music did not sound any different. I'm still experimenting.

1. It utilizes Windows' Multimedia Realtime framework (MMCSS and such) to configure multimedia task in favor of audio playback. You can see some DAW software having MMCSS feature. Fidelizer does similar stuff like that but in its own way. This isn't tinkering OS but optimizing core audio using safe code and instructions provided by Microsoft. Again, it's all about using Microsoft stuff and doesn't tamper anything else outside what OS originally offers.

Just to confer, Steinberg Cubase 7.0.6 (Aug 2013) had this update:

Improved audio stability
To improve the overall audio stability under Windows, Cubase now ensures that the ASIO driver threads are using Windows MMCSS (Multimedia Class Scheduling Service).

However, ASIO 2.3 gave the ASIO driver the ability to set the MMCSS affinity and Steinberg states the only correct way to now do is to let the driver handle it and not the DAW.

More on MMCSS from Microsoft:  Multimedia Class Scheduler Service

2. It manages processes like priority and core affinity. This is some what tinkering OS like Jim said and not always safe to do so default configuration won't perform this.

3. It can shutdown non-audio services leaving only audio ones or other required features like Network. Since shutting down service doesn't seem to be healthy activity for most people. It's a feature for Extremist that was once removed and brought back again upon request.

I tried Extremist and my HTPC locks up with a 0 dBFS audio static signal going to my DAC and amps! 

[JonnyRedHed]

I see, interesting comments.  Mixed and confused I still am.   If there is some middle safe non OS tinkering ground here, then could jriver benefit from the best of these two pieces of software integrated in a new section.

[mojave]

I see WindowsX has been announcing his new website on multiple forums today. 

[windowsx]

I only update my news 6.4 release in some threads along with website news. As for Extremist, you need to keep network services if you use with Tidal's networked audio.

With respect to people who don't feel safe tampering OS, I made Fidelizer to work without tampering system to cause permanently changes so everyone can try improving audio performance without taking risks like countless pages of DAW optimizations. Since this is done on core audio and also OS level depending on configuration, all media software including JRiver can gain benefits from it. Even YouTube/Chrome/Firefox/IE/Spotify can gain audio performance improvements too.

[Magellan]

There are some sites on the internet where cool and (in a positive way) geeky guys have measured the effect of Jplay and other program of the same sort. Like this audiophile optimizer I assume. The measurements are teaching us that the ongoing processes in a computer has no significant measurable and hearable effect on audio quality. And why should it? What is so special about audiofiles? Considering all things a computer can do with the most extreme precision, why would audiofiles be such an challenge? Anyway. In my world a computer ought to be used with an outboard DAC. This DAC should be able to handle any jitter, i e reduce it to levels where it can´t be heard. So why bother about reducing jitter in the computer?

[JimH]

In my world a computer ought to be used with an outboard DAC. This DAC should be able to handle any jitter, i e reduce it to levels where it can´t be heard. So why bother about reducing jitter in the computer?

We agree with you.

[windowsx]

There are some sites on the internet where cool and (in a positive way) geeky guys have measured the effect of Jplay and other program of the same sort. Like this audiophile optimizer I assume. The measurements are teaching us that the ongoing processes in a computer has no significant measurable and hearable effect on audio quality. And why should it? What is so special about audiofiles? Considering all things a computer can do with the most extreme precision, why would audiofiles be such an challenge? Anyway. In my world a computer ought to be used with an outboard DAC. This DAC should be able to handle any jitter, i e reduce it to levels where it can´t be heard. So why bother about reducing jitter in the computer?

Magellan, if you read above posts, you should understand that Fidelizer's goal isn't about trying to reduce jitter in computer but improving audio performance using features provided by Microsoft. You can open my website www.fidelizer-audio.com and search for jitter word. I didn't use any single word of 'jitter' for Fidelizer. Maybe one for 'Rewrite Data' but it's not about my own project, OK?

As explained before that Fidelizer is utilizing Windows' multimedia framework such as realtime runtime and MMCSS and other related stuff, they're not outrageous tweaks at all since some respected DAW software are also using it. And a few people already stated here how Fidelizer could resolve their problems improving audio performance. And J River alone couldn't solve Tidal streaming dropout issues on mojave's case without Fidelizer's help. I think playback performance can be measured by comparing how low buffer size can be without dropout and Fidelizer helps improving it.

[Magellan]

Well. I didn´t mention your Fidelizer. Did I?
I used some minutes and read a little about MMCSS at https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb614507.aspxand
I found this: "WASAPI automatically increases the priority of the system threads that transfer data between the applications and the hardware. WASAPI uses MMCSS to increase the thread priority." Fine Just use WASAPI in JRiver.
The so called jitter-problem should not be confused with latency problems. I also use the TIDAL (But where I live it is called WIMP) streaming service with the JRiver driver. I had some latency issues in the beginning, but the audio-quality as such remained the same. And after some trial and error in the JRiver settings everything works now without problems.

[windowsx]

Nobody ever said anything about jitter here except you. I don't understand why you're bringing up jitter in this topic since nobody talk about it. Did you try Fidelizer or read its information in website? Let me rephrase its core optimizations again here.

1. Multimedia Class Scheduler Service or MMCSS optimization: You may see some DAW software having MMCSS options and we have no clue what they do specifically as if it’s developers’ secrets. At least you can find explanation in Fidelizer and here’s how it’s done.
-Keep audio task working steady without losing focus to other tasks
-Raise over all audio task priority such application, I/O, etc.
-More time slice for audio resource utilization (Much more frequently)

2. Kernel timer resolution optimization: I first discovered this from DPC Latency checker software. I used to have stuttering audio for low latency playback but running this software stopped stuttering. So I looked further and found it changed kernel timer resolution from 15.6ms to 1ms fixing this stuttering issue. So I added this to Fidelizer as well and will set it to lowest possible (0.5ms). This would solve most low latency issues in digital audio.

3. Audio thread priority optimization: Here’s a real gem. This is the only and unique feature that I couldn’t find any software claiming to do it and needs to be done from Core Audio’s API command. It will increase audio thread priority, real audio thread not raising some audio processes priority so audio performance is improved from its core.

They're all done through genuine anthentic stuff from Microsoft's service and runtime library. And I explained things in concrete ways such as explaining what I do with MMCSS, state optimizations in number, etc. I believe Fidelizer should be able to improve your latency situation like mojave has posted earlier so you should give it a try.

[Magellan]

The point is, when it comes to digital audio and HiFi, in the digital domain jitter is from a practical point of view the only thing with a potential to reduce audio quality. (I leave the question out about the quality of the DAC-chip itself, flters, reading error and such hardware related problems) Jitter has to be handled. These wonders Fidelizer is supposed to do - on your website you are talking about a "Massively increase audio quality on Windows PC" - well - show me some measured proof that your software are performing these massive improvements. Show me hard facts.

[windowsx]

That's your own assumptions that Fidelizer has to prove about jitter improvements to claim better audio quality. I won't talk about inmeasurable and unpredictable improvements. I'll only tallk about what I do, what can be measured and improvements that could be made. Don't force ambiguous stuff to me.

Hard facts are already shown that you could improve audio playback at lower latency with Fidelizer. It's already proven that raising audio task and main thread priority yields better audio performance. Nobody would agree that setting priority of audio task and its main thread to idle or lowest possible is better or have no effect, right? Otherwise, file your complaints to Microsoft about MMCSS and stuff not Fidelizer and DAW vendors. We're just borrowing Microsoft tools to use for improving audio performance.

As for the word "Massively increase audio quality", I found these words from here
issue
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=57652237&postcount=8

And I think it's kinda cool and love his statement very much so I put it on my website. And improving audio stability at much lower latency is already MASSIVE. Well, if you won't ever try Fidelizer, you can believe in whatever you want. I don't need to prove everyone who's not gonna bother with my software, do I? If you tell me you try my software and it doesn't improve your dropout issues or something, I'd be more eagerly to help you out fixing your problems instead of making these pointless jitter arguments and measuring subjective elements.

[Hilton]

Let me make it real simple.

If you don't have latency issues and dropouts this software will do nothing to improve your system.
As long as the driver and hardware buffers have enough data to avoid dropouts the only thing to worry about is jitter, which is taken care of with most decent DACs these days.
Most people wouldn't hear the difference Audiophile or not.

Sure you may be able to reduce latency of the signal from the source to the AMP, but latency alone doesn't improve audio quality or performance. As long as the buffers aren't being starved, improving latency just allows smaller buffers.

"Massive improvement" is a massive overstatement.  It may improve performance with lower buffer and latency settings but that's about it.

[JimH]

I'm going to close this in the interest of public health.