Topic: Rendering issues on a high DPI screen (Read 13112 times)

mattkhan · « **on:** February 18, 2015, 01:41:10 pm »

I have a new Dell XPS 13 with a 13" 3200x1800 display and running windows 8.1. The out of the box experience with jriver is pretty funky to say the least (see attached pics). I have used the settings from http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=91617.0 which does improve things but I have a few Qs

- are there some standard recommended settings for a high dpi display on Windows 8.1?
- is there a way to change the default zoom on a thumbnail based library view?
- why doesn't jriver auto detect this and apply its own settings to make it usable on 1st install?

Cheers
Matt

Matt · « **Reply #1 on:** February 18, 2015, 02:09:17 pm »

That manage libraries window is using GetScaled(500) for the button and text width.

That should be the user scale times the system scale times 500.

Obviously something isn't working right, but I don't know what.

Hendrik · « **Reply #2 on:** February 18, 2015, 02:11:47 pm »

Jim should totally provide High-DPI screens for all developers (or just me)!

Then we would totally have a much easier time fixing those.

JimH · « **Reply #3 on:** February 18, 2015, 02:13:48 pm »

Matt · « **Reply #4 on:** February 18, 2015, 02:14:59 pm »

I was actually just looking on Amazon about ordering one for testing this very issue

This was my pick:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00I0H9T5C/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=AJGUKEHKSIMLA

glynor · « **Reply #5 on:** February 18, 2015, 02:16:27 pm »

Quote from: JimH on February 18, 2015, 02:13:48 pm

OK

You should also totally provide High-DPI screens for all beta team members (or just me)!

Then we would totally have a much easier time reporting issues with those.

mwillems · « **Reply #6 on:** February 18, 2015, 02:17:06 pm »

Quote from: mattkhan on February 18, 2015, 01:41:10 pm

- are there some standard recommended settings for a high dpi display on Windows 8.1?

I've only personally gotten good results by turning off windows DPI scaling and only using MC's internal scaling, which is not ideal from a number of perspectives. The fact that MC's UI doesn't scale properly with windows DPI killed it for me, I never could get the fonts sorted out even using 62's method from the linked thread. MC does seem to scale much better as long as it's doing all of it's own scaling, but that leaves the rest of the windows environment hard to use.

So I'm not aware of a good fix other than turning off windows DPI scaling, but that's only a good fix for a dedicated JRiver computer. I'm personally hoping that JRiver's interaction with windows DPI scaling gets fixed at some point. I can replicate some scaling issues on a normal DPI screen by just playing with combinations of windows DPI scaling and JRiver's interal scaling.

Quote

- is there a way to change the default zoom on a thumbnail based library view?

MC remembers the last zoom set in a view on restart (or at least it does for me), with the caveat that library clients inherit the zoom settings of the server as that's part of the "view."

EDIT: Whoops, ninja'd by devs; looks like this might be getting some attention (or at least selling a few monitors

)

Hendrik · « **Reply #7 on:** February 18, 2015, 02:18:03 pm »

Quote from: Matt on February 18, 2015, 02:14:59 pm

I was actually just looking on Amazon about ordering one for testing this very issue

This was my pick:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00I0H9T5C/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=AJGUKEHKSIMLA

Thats a nice one. An alternative would be the Dell P2715Q, although not sure where the pricing is in comparison (its a newer model with a bit better build quality).

JimH · « **Reply #8 on:** February 18, 2015, 02:27:38 pm »

Get a couple. And one of these:
http://www.amazon.com/3M-Adjust-Monitor-Saving-Monitors/dp/B009NSGO3M/ref=lp_10986072011_1_10?s=office-products&ie=UTF8&qid=1424291185&sr=1-10

Matt · « **Reply #9 on:** February 18, 2015, 02:30:04 pm »

Quote from: JimH on February 18, 2015, 02:27:38 pm

Get a couple. And one of these:
http://www.amazon.com/3M-Adjust-Monitor-Saving-Monitors/dp/B009NSGO3M/ref=lp_10986072011_1_10?s=office-products&ie=UTF8&qid=1424291185&sr=1-10

I'll order once we enter March. I'm playing a little game with Discover because they're giving $500 back if I spend $3000 a month for the next several months. I need some expenses in March, and this will help

mwillems · « **Reply #10 on:** February 18, 2015, 02:31:06 pm »

Quote from: JimH on February 18, 2015, 02:27:38 pm

Get a couple. And one of these:
http://www.amazon.com/3M-Adjust-Monitor-Saving-Monitors/dp/B009NSGO3M/ref=lp_10986072011_1_10?s=office-products&ie=UTF8&qid=1424291185&sr=1-10

I have the single-mount version of that bracket at home, and it's one of the best computer related investments I've made in a while. Being able to put the monitor exactly where I need it when I'm using it, and then pivot it out of the way when I need to actually get to my desktop (as in the literal, physical surface of my desk) was a huge increase in available work space.

mattkhan · « **Reply #11 on:** February 18, 2015, 03:52:15 pm »

OK so basically I should expect it to be borked for now but there might be some love shown in the coming months to improve matters once the team is appropriately kitted out

OT: This XPS13 is nice btw, the tiny bezel does work well.... windows 8.1 not so much... (and linux looks like it will take a little while til it is available on it - https://major.io/2015/02/03/linux-support-dell-xps-13-9343-2015-model/)

Awesome Donkey · « **Reply #12 on:** February 18, 2015, 04:10:09 pm »

27/28 inch 4K monitors seem a bit too small for my liking and I'd probably hate how small everything would look running at the 4K resolution. Personally, I'd go 32 inch for a 4K monitor (I'm currently running a 27 inch 1440p monitor which is the perfect resolution for 27 inch, IMO). It also doesn't help that Windows has such horrible DPI scaling (please Microsoft, fix this in Windows 10).

@Matt, if you're looking for things to buy, skip 4K and go to 5K!

Hendrik · « **Reply #13 on:** February 19, 2015, 08:03:15 am »

Quote from: Matt on February 18, 2015, 02:30:04 pm

I'll order once we enter March. I'm playing a little game with Discover because they're giving $500 back if I spend $3000 a month for the next several months. I need some expenses in March, and this will help

I did some research on the screens, and the Dell P2815Q does only 30Hz at 4K since its a old model, and 30Hz would be a no-go criteria for me.
My pick would definitely be the Dell P2715Q, its a new model from December and does full 60Hz at 4K. Naming is confusing here.

JimH · « **Reply #14 on:** February 19, 2015, 08:14:20 am »

How much more are the 32" screens?

Awesome Donkey · « **Reply #15 on:** February 19, 2015, 08:28:02 am »

For example, here's the 32" ASUS PQ321Q (does 60Hz over DisplayPort 1.2).

Awesome Donkey · « **Reply #16 on:** February 19, 2015, 08:33:06 am »

And here's the BenQ BL3201PH which also does 60Hz over DP 1.2. Dell has one too, the Dell UltraSharp UP3214Q, but it's more expensive.

Hendrik · « **Reply #17 on:** February 19, 2015, 08:53:02 am »

The prices for 30-32" screens tend to quickly go up, and personally, I prefer 27-28" in screen size anyway, just being a factor of desk size and viewing distance.
To each their own, of course!

Awesome Donkey · « **Reply #18 on:** February 19, 2015, 09:05:28 am »

Quote from: Hendrik on February 19, 2015, 08:53:02 am

I prefer 27-28" in screen size anyway, just being a factor of desk size and viewing distance.

I do too but when I was tested out a 27" 4K monitor in a store, I found running Windows at 4K on the 27" monitor too small for my liking (and was hard on the eyes even though my vision is still pretty good!). The extra few inches really do make a difference, IMO. I find 27" is perfect for 1440p whereas 30" is perfect for 1600p.

6233638 · « **Reply #19 on:** February 19, 2015, 10:08:40 am »

Quote from: Awesome Donkey on February 18, 2015, 04:10:09 pm

27/28 inch 4K monitors seem a bit too small for my liking and I'd probably hate how small everything would look running at the 4K resolution. Personally, I'd go 32 inch for a 4K monitor (I'm currently running a 27 inch 1440p monitor which is the perfect resolution for 27 inch, IMO). It also doesn't help that Windows has such horrible DPI scaling (please Microsoft, fix this in Windows 10).

Windows' DPI scaling is fine. The issue is that Windows has so many legacy apps to support that may not handle scaling well, while OS X doesn't have that legacy support.

As for 4K monitor size. It's actually the other way around. 27/32" are too big for 4K, because 4K is equivalent to a 1920x1080@2x display. The ideal size for that is 22". (200 pixels per inch)

If you want a 3840x2160 workspace rather than a "retina" quality display, then it would ideally be 44" (100 PPI), so the 27/32" monitors are too small for that.
27" 4K is really a 1.25x display while 32" 4K is a 1.5x display.

But it's really best to be running at integer scale factors. (i.e. 1x or 2x)
Using non-integer scaling factors is when you start to run into problems.
"5K" at 27" is a lot closer to the ideal size for 2560x1440@2x (218 PPI)

glynor · « **Reply #20 on:** February 19, 2015, 11:13:58 am »

Quote from: 6233638 on February 19, 2015, 10:08:40 am

Windows' DPI scaling is fine.

It is not. Not at all.

There are widespread reports of issues in all sorts of applications. I see them regularly with our few 4K displays here at work. That means it isn't fine. If they can't deal with legacy applications in an acceptable manner, that's the definition of "not fine".

OSXs high-res support, while not without some issues (cruddy fonts on older applications, mostly), is way, way, way better.

Hendrik · « **Reply #21 on:** February 19, 2015, 11:23:14 am »

Quote from: glynor on February 19, 2015, 11:13:58 am

OSXs high-res support, while not without some issues (cruddy fonts on older applications, mostly), is way, way, way better.

Its only better because it only works in a very limited ecosystem with fixed scaling factors, a system MS couldn't possibly use.
Apple didn't achieve anything magical. Their only advantage is having only one or two cases to worry about, which makes a solution trivial.

I can't blame MS for broken applications. MS has a distinct different philosophy of not breaking backwards compat, while Apple regularly breaks old apps and enforces updates.
One of those may look nicer to the users on the outside, and one drives developers mad.

mwillems · « **Reply #22 on:** February 19, 2015, 11:30:05 am »

Quote from: Hendrik on February 19, 2015, 11:23:14 am

One of those may look nicer to the users on the outside, and one drives developers mad.

Lack of backwards compat drives (some) users mad too. I'd rather be able to run 10 year old utilities with the scaling broken than be unable to run them at all.

6233638 · « **Reply #23 on:** February 19, 2015, 11:44:11 am »

Quote from: glynor on February 19, 2015, 11:13:58 am

There are widespread reports of issues in all sorts of applications. I see them regularly with our few 4K displays here at work. That means it isn't fine. If they can't deal with legacy applications in an acceptable manner, that's the definition of "not fine".

Are they running Windows 8.1?
Windows 8.1 (or was it 8?) essentially ditched the "legacy" way of DPI scaling unless applications are specifically flagged to say that they support it.

This means that non-DPI-aware applications are rendered at 100% size, and then scaled up as though they were an image using bilinear scaling. (or similar)
This is exactly how Apple handles non-retina applications on OSX.

Edit: Nearest Neighbor scaling is used at 200% scale to keep things sharp.
And there is a "disable display scaling on high DPI settings" compatibility option to disable the new scaling and use legacy DPI scaling for applications where it actually works.

The older way of handling scaling in Windows often resulted in text being scaled up but not other UI elements, which often completely broke applications.
Most of the people I see complaining about Windows' DPI scaling being "broken" are trying to use high-DPI displays on Windows 7.

Quote from: glynor on February 19, 2015, 11:13:58 am

OSXs high-res support, while not without some issues (cruddy fonts on older applications, mostly), is way, way, way better.

OSX only supports rendering at 1x or 2x however.

It also has an incredibly stupid "scaled resolution" option available on "retina" displays that still renders to a 2x target and then up/downscales that as an image to your monitor's native resolution.
As you might expect, this blurs the hell out of everything, compared to Windows' non-integer scaling options.

Matt · « **Reply #24 on:** March 01, 2015, 07:32:11 pm »

I ordered a Dell Ultra HD 4k Monitor P2715Q 27-Inch Screen for work.

It'll be here in a few days, and of course it'll take me a few days to get up to speed on the issues.

But baby steps...

Hendrik · « **Reply #25 on:** March 01, 2015, 07:49:56 pm »

My screen of choice as well, unfortunately its out of stock everywhere right now around here, so I cannot help you at this time, although I figure this might be interesting to sort out, and get some understanding of the whole system!
There is a lot of things to get right, especially when you mix one High-DPI screen and one normal screen, but luckily Windows 8.1 adds all the required tools to handle that.

Matt · « **Reply #26 on:** March 04, 2015, 09:50:58 am »

I got the monitor but my video card can only push 2560x1440 to it.

So I think I need a new video card to run the native 3840x2160.

I'm not seeing any strange behavior in MC at 2560x1440.

Any suggestions? I'm a little out of my depth on this (normally I'm just looking at what video card can game well).

Thanks.

Matt · « **Reply #27 on:** March 04, 2015, 10:00:45 am »

I ordered a EVGA GeForce GTX 750Ti. Hopefully it works!

Hendrik · « **Reply #28 on:** March 04, 2015, 10:05:36 am »

Its not very high performance, but you're not gaming at the office (that I know of!), so it should work fine.

JimH · « **Reply #29 on:** March 04, 2015, 10:35:52 am »

Quote from: Hendrik on March 04, 2015, 10:05:36 am

Its not very high performance, but you're not gaming at the office (that I know of!), so it should work fine.

I could give you the web cam address if you want to check.

Matt · « **Reply #30 on:** March 04, 2015, 10:39:23 am »

I've gotten so many frags in this office chair. Watch out brother.

I just never find time for MC work!

6233638 · « **Reply #31 on:** March 04, 2015, 04:20:36 pm »

Quote from: Matt on March 04, 2015, 09:50:58 am

I got the monitor but my video card can only push 2560x1440 to it.
So I think I need a new video card to run the native 3840x2160.

Just curious, what card were you using that won't do 4K?
Is it possible that the card just won't do 4K over DVI/HDMI, but would if you use a DisplayPort connection?

Matt · « **Reply #32 on:** March 09, 2015, 01:23:12 pm »

I'm running 3840x2160 now (my video card came).

Unfortunately, the MC window scales great! I don't see any issue at all.

Matt · « **Reply #33 on:** March 09, 2015, 02:10:25 pm »

I changed something so that MC rendered really small. I'm not sure what it was, I was monkeying with all the settings in Windows.

I then set it to 200% on the size menu and it's fine.

mattkhan · « **Reply #34 on:** March 09, 2015, 02:38:23 pm »

Quote from: Matt on March 09, 2015, 02:10:25 pm

I changed something so that MC rendered really small. I'm not sure what it was, I was monkeying with all the settings in Windows.

I then set it to 200% on the size menu and it's fine.

What settings do you have exactly? Which version of windows is it?

Matt · « **Reply #35 on:** March 09, 2015, 03:00:14 pm »

Coming next build:
Changed: The DPI of the display is accounted for so you shouldn't have to pick a big size value if you're running a high DPI display.

mattkhan · « **Reply #36 on:** March 17, 2015, 03:45:22 pm »

I updated to 20.0.84 today and it looks much better to me.

The only obvious issue I can see is server view thumbnail size thing. AIUI if I change the zoom on the thumbnail view then it is applied to all clients using the same library view. A mixed environment of high and low DPI screens will therefore never have an optimal view.

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Author Topic: Rendering issues on a high DPI screen (Read 13112 times)