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Author Topic: Sub-Genres  (Read 8521 times)

joshhuggins

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Sub-Genres
« on: March 23, 2015, 01:43:17 pm »

I am thinking about going thru and adding sub-genres to my media. Is adding a standard edit-able Library String field still the ideal way to do this or is there something new I may have missed? Thought I'd check for opinions here before I go off and get started. Forum and Wiki search seem to indicate this would be the way to do it but maybe someone here has something cool. ;) Thanks
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mwillems

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Re: Sub-Genres
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2015, 01:48:22 pm »

I am thinking about going thru and adding sub-genres to my media. Is adding a standard edit-able Library String field still the ideal way to do this or is there something new I may have missed? Thought I'd check for opinions here before I go off and get started. Forum and Wiki search seem to indicate this would be the way to do it but maybe someone here has something cool. ;) Thanks

The easiest way (in my opinion) is to use a backslash in the genre field: e.g. Rock\Classic Rock.  That will place the selected files in a main genre Rock, and a subgenre Classic Rock.  JRiver's genre views automatically display subgenres when drilling down into a view (unless there aren't any, and then it just goes to the next display criteria).

Be careful to use a backslash and not a forward slash as the forward slash is just a normal character, i.e. "Pop/Rock" is a single main genre, "Pop\Rock" is a main genre (Pop) and a subgenre (Rock).

Multiple genres are supported with a semicolon as a separator, but you need to give the full genre\subgenre path on both sides of the semi-colon, i.e. to tag Pink Floyd as both the subgenre classic rock and the subgenre progressive rock you need "Rock\Classic Rock; Rock\Progressive Rock"  but not "Rock\Classic Rock; Progressive Rock"
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ferday

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Re: Sub-Genres
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2015, 02:33:06 pm »

just to play the other side...

i set up sub genre as a checklist custom field, rather than mwillems method

1.  checklists are really easy (check the box) and can be edited easily in the views
2.  it's a much less intensive way to tag a lot of files (i.e. going back to tag a bunch of older files with sub genre)
3.  it's easier IMO to set up a bunch of over-arching sub genres

for example, i can easily tag genre POP with sub genres SHOEGAZE,INDIE,DOWNTEMPO
the sub genres SHOEGAZE, INDIE, DOWNTEMPO are also used a lot for other main genres, so it's no trick to tag any genre with a sub genre with almost no typing

i set up about 100 sub genres before i even started tagging...after the initial setup it's a no-typing solution to check as many sub genre boxes i want, and drilling down through sub genres is really easy in views.

but as usual with MC, there's more than one way to skin the cat!  i know mwillems way is the most popular MC method of tagging sub genre
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joshhuggins

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Re: Sub-Genres
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2015, 01:21:39 am »

Great tips guys, thanks. Surprised I didn't find more on mwillems method as that seems like that would be something that would have turned up higher in the search results. I thought about doing something like that originally but didn't realize that MC would break it down for me in views which is cool. I also like ferday's idea as it seems to lend to a system where sub-genres might cross in interesting ways. Going to really have to play with both methods and test them out.  Really glad I checked first and would love to hear of any other methods. Always amazed at how much power JRiver has crammed into Media Center. Really is an amazing feat. Wish I had more time to dedicate to learning more of the advanced features and the expression system. :-\ Will report back once I play a bit. Thanks again all.
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Arindelle

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Re: Sub-Genres
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2015, 04:49:23 am »

ha ok my 2 cents for a third way  ;D a little late but hey

I have a main genre and two sub-genres for Pop Music and Jazz (I use Category, Genre and Styles + Period for Classical Music thrown in for good measure). All are simple entries in that I prefer not to use the backslash for a couple of reasons,  most of which are aesthetic,  so my way is not necessarily better. I use list fields (like Ferday was talking about) for ease of data entry and for certain expressions they come in handy  too.

The difference (at least I think there is a difference, reading Ferdays comment - maybe its the same? if so sorry about that :) ) is that I leave all standard metadata fields alone for scrapping. The list fields are auto-populated using this type of expression in the custom field:
Code: [Select]
[*Data Field Name Here*]&datatype=[list]example - I used at first Grouping, Genre, Style which are all standard Vorbis comment fields as my Genre, Sub-genre, Sub-sub-genre. So for the "genre" field create a new field call it I called it Genres (lural with an s based on someone elses post here on the forum ;) ) Once this "[Genres]" field is created first as a data field. Edit the field and turn it into a calculated field using the expression
Code: [Select]
[genre]&datatype=[list] This will auto populate from the ripped metadata contained in the tag Genre. And vice Versa [Genre]<==>[Genres]

This will also give you the benefits of what Ferday is talking about. Including pane tagging form the View and list box editing from the tag window.

And this type of list field can be used in View schemes to break multiple tags down visually on the screen, instead of the primary data field. So using the separator either in the data field like "Deep House; Ambient Techno; IDM" directly or editing it or adding to it separately (in the list box on the list field in the box which will show up if in the tagging window - it will insert the semi-colon for you), it automatically will update both fields from either direction. If you also use the option "Filter in both directions" this can be pretty powerful stuff. Of course the [Artist] field can be used in the same way, as well as other fields which you want to create "lists" for.
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stanzani

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Re: Sub-Genres
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2016, 02:10:08 am »

just to play the other side...

i set up sub genre as a checklist custom field, rather than mwillems method

1.  checklists are really easy (check the box) and can be edited easily in the views
2.  it's a much less intensive way to tag a lot of files (i.e. going back to tag a bunch of older files with sub genre)
3.  it's easier IMO to set up a bunch of over-arching sub genres

for example, i can easily tag genre POP with sub genres SHOEGAZE,INDIE,DOWNTEMPO
the sub genres SHOEGAZE, INDIE, DOWNTEMPO are also used a lot for other main genres, so it's no trick to tag any genre with a sub genre with almost no typing

i set up about 100 sub genres before i even started tagging...after the initial setup it's a no-typing solution to check as many sub genre boxes i want, and drilling down through sub genres is really easy in views.

but as usual with MC, there's more than one way to skin the cat!  i know mwillems way is the most popular MC method of tagging sub genre

hello
how do I create a checklist custom field? I cannot find a suitable example on JRiver wiki
thanks
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blgentry

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Re: Sub-Genres
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2016, 07:10:53 am »

how do I create a checklist custom field? I cannot find a suitable example on JRiver wiki

Data type:  List (semicolon delimited)
Edit type:  List

I've set this up for my "Styles" tag, which I use instead of Sub-Genre.

Brian.
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stanzani

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Re: Sub-Genres
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2016, 07:38:42 am »

Using Style is a really good hint
Thanks much
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blgentry

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Re: Sub-Genres
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2016, 07:58:31 am »

^ Please note that the built in field "Style" is a String field and can not be used like a List field.  It won't hold multiple values (at least not in any supported way).  Also note that the built in field Genre is a List type field, but it doesn't use a List type for editing!  Which means you can manually input multiple values, using semi-colons, but you can't use check boxes!  I really hate that.

My solution is to great [Genres] and [Styles].  Notice that they are plural.  Both are List type with edit type of List, so both can be used as check boxes.

The pairing of a multi-value Genres, with a multi-value Styles, mirrors exactly what Allmusic.com and Discogs.com both do to classify Artists and their Albums.  I don't strictly adhere to either allmusic or discogs.  Instead, I look at what they both say, which are usually different from each other, and then decide for myself what I should be using for Genres and Styles.

This is a rather long and somewhat arbitrary process to classify an entire collection.  I've only started it recently.

Brian.
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Listener

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Re: Sub-Genres
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2016, 09:33:18 am »

Using Style is a really good hint
Thanks much

Othello advised sticking to tags predefined by MC.  I disagree with that advice.  I've been using MC for almost 10 years and have found no disadvantages to user defiend tags.  There is a small set of tags that are widely recognized by ripping, tagging and playback software (and portable players.)  Most of the tags MC predefines are not recognized by other software or portable players.

Experiment with entering data into a list field before you commit to it.  I use a list field for singers and find entering data for it and other fields to be quite awkward. 

I'd experiment with mwillems's method and with ferday's to see how the user interface works and how data entry works.  Someone else

When you create a new tag, you are faced with a potentially long discouraging data entry job.  JRiver provides tools that can make it easier.  Think about a strategy for getting the job done before you plunge in.  I decided I wanted to place the Conductor name in that tag in addition to having it in the Artist tag (with soloist and orchestra like Fleisher_Szell_Cleveland Orchestra.)  I figured out a strategy that got the job done in under 2 hours.

It really doesn't matter what the tag name you choose for the sub genre data.  Think about what you want to achieve, learn about alternative sin MC and then choose Tags and views that let you accomplish what you want.
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stanzani

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Re: Sub-Genres
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2016, 04:43:58 am »

I am finally at home so I can use the server PC and add/modify custom tags: here is the Picture:
- MusiCHI 'Edit Multiple File -> 'custom tag &albun and cover' -> Edit Custom Tag  tab is a Mess:  
https://www.dropbox.com/s/mkq3i596i0kes31/Screenshot%202016-02-27%2011.36.06.png?dl=0
I can hardly understand what to do (Why two line? what is the tag name, what is the display name?)
- MusciCHI propose three tags for categorization
- Genre (same as JRIver, which I tag as 'Calssical' for all classical music
- Instuments - e.g. (01.01) Ensemble>Orchestra
- Period and Style - e.g. (11) 20th Century
They are enough and OK for me (MusiCHI put backet nombers upfront, donno why)
JRiver propose tags as Instrument (not InstrumetS) and Style which are the MusiCHI counterparts
I have also trued to read tags with Tag&Rename, which also do not show the 'Composition tag' used by MusiCHI ...
Now I am facing this
a - leave MusiCHI and use JRiver for everything (I'll sacrifice the MusiCHI flexibility (Album is the disc, Composition is the work-piece)
b - try to add custom tags 'Instruments' and 'Period and Style' so JRiver interoperarte with MusiCHI and use MusiCHI for tagging
I'd go for solution b ( not want to play with too many tools)

Thanks for any opinion

Cheers
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Listener

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Re: Sub-Genres
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2016, 10:25:41 am »

I am finally at home so I can use the server PC and add/modify custom tags: here is the Picture:
- MusiCHI 'Edit Multiple File -> 'custom tag &albun and cover' -> Edit Custom Tag  tab is a Mess:  
https://www.dropbox.com/s/mkq3i596i0kes31/Screenshot%202016-02-27%2011.36.06.png?dl=0
I can hardly understand what to do (Why two line? what is the tag name, what is the display name?)
- MusciCHI propose three tags for categorization
- Genre (same as JRIver, which I tag as 'Calssical' for all classical music
- Instuments - e.g. (01.01) Ensemble>Orchestra
- Period and Style - e.g. (11) 20th Century
They are enough and OK for me (MusiCHI put backet nombers upfront, donno why)
JRiver propose tags as Instrument (not InstrumetS) and Style which are the MusiCHI counterparts
I have also trued to read tags with Tag&Rename, which also do not show the 'Composition tag' used by MusiCHI ...
Now I am facing this
a - leave MusiCHI and use JRiver for everything (I'll sacrifice the MusiCHI flexibility (Album is the disc, Composition is the work-piece)
b - try to add custom tags 'Instruments' and 'Period and Style' so JRiver interoperarte with MusiCHI and use MusiCHI for tagging
I'd go for solution b ( not want to play with too many tools)

Thanks for any opinion

Cheers

Before you make any decisions, you should do a bit of investigation.  First, you should look at the raw tags that MusiChi has placed in a music file.  Select a single music file in JRiver.  If the Tag window is not visible, Click Edit, then Tag to make it visible.  In the tag window, click on the line just below the window header.  It should say something like "Flac - 8:50...".  (The file format and length in minutesd: seconds.)  See number 2 in the screenshot



You should see a list like the one below.  Scroll down seeing what tags and values are present in the music file.



When you have examined the raw tags MusiChi placed in the file, you should see what values JRiver has copied to its library database.  Close the window with the raw tag information.  Click on the gear symbol at the left end of the tag window header. (No. 1 in the first screen shot.)  Cloose "Show all tags".  Now scroll down the list of tags in the tag window to see what information JRiver has collected from the file.

If all goes well, you should see how to define user defined fields in JRiver that will match the tag names MusiChi used.  If not, post a screenshot or two showing the contents of the raw tag window.

Enough for now.  Report back when you have this information.
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