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Author Topic: Continued Support for Windows XP?  (Read 27131 times)

Hendrik

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Re: Continued Support for Windows XP?
« Reply #50 on: July 04, 2015, 02:13:41 pm »

I think they would be happy to keep using MC with the current feature set as long as they keep the XP PC going.  These people aren't expecting wonderful new features; they just want to keep using MC as it is now.

MC20 isn't going to break tomorrow, so you can always do that!
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DarkSpace

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Re: Continued Support for Windows XP?
« Reply #51 on: July 04, 2015, 03:16:39 pm »

Personally, I believe that XP needs to be put to rest. It had its time, but I can see no reason to actively support it in the future, especially when it makes development suffer. By the same argument that keeps XP alive, we should also still support Windows 200, ME, NT, 98, ... because we should still have supported them a few years back, and some people use them.

I understand the argument that these (very) old machines some people use to play music can only run XP, but if people themselves cannot install a Linux distribution on them, then certainly they know someone who can help them (it's rather easy, though that may be biased). Also, it has been suggested that the Media Server may well continue working between 20 and 21, at least for a while...
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glynor

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Re: Continued Support for Windows XP?
« Reply #52 on: July 04, 2015, 09:30:08 pm »

- old PC, not worth spending money on.
- It runs and I don't want to disturb anything.
- I own it, it's free and I'd like to get some use out of it.
- As long as this old PC does what I need, I don't want to spend money on a replacement.
- Got NO money to spend on computers.

But yet, it is the end of the world that they can't buy the upgrade to MC21?

I'm confused. Do they have money to spend on software upgrades, or don't they?
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6233638

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Re: Continued Support for Windows XP?
« Reply #53 on: July 05, 2015, 07:36:47 am »

But yet, it is the end of the world that they can't buy the upgrade to MC21?
I'm confused. Do they have money to spend on software upgrades, or don't they?
That's what I was wondering.
Are the people that are unable/unwilling to spend the money to upgrade from XP likely to upgrade MC?
With the people sticking to old software/hardware because it's what they know and "if it's not broken, don't touch it" rather than being in a position where they can't afford to upgrade the software/hardware, isn't that attitude likely to carry over to MC as well?
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lepa

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Re: Continued Support for Windows XP?
« Reply #54 on: July 05, 2015, 08:08:23 am »

XP could be on 2nd, 3rd or even 4th computer... Primary PC is which they have invested and to which they have updated MC also. That said I agree that it isn't sensible any more to take XP into account when specifying new features.
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Listener

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Re: Continued Support for Windows XP?
« Reply #55 on: July 05, 2015, 05:10:49 pm »

But yet, it is the end of the world that they can't buy the upgrade to MC21?

I'm confused. Do they have money to spend on software upgrades, or don't they?


end of the world if they can't buy MC 21:  I don't see that this relates to anything that I said.  It is usually much cheaper to get business from existing customers than to acquire new customers.  Checking with XP based customers before you cut them loose might be prudent.  If few are expecting to upgrade MC further on an XP computer, JRiver is free to go ahead.  (See the sample message beloew.) However, if a significant number are expecting to continue to be able to upgrade on XP computers, JRiver may want to modify its plans.

money for upgrades: Some have the money and some don't.  Outside the world of computer techies, people don't look forward to spending money on computer hardware or software.  However, when something breaks, their priorities change.

willingness to upgrade: Outside the techie world, people often use the same OS on a PC until they replace the hardware.  However, during the life of a PC, an MC user might upgrade MC several times.  It is (usually) straightforward to do so compared to an OS upgrade.

JimH would not have asked the question in the OP if he felt that JRiver no longer had customers using XP or might get new customers who used XP.  The thread had lots of pronouncements by techies who didn't seem to have any empathy for XP users. I tried to get a different point of view into the thread.   I listed some thoughts that might be in an XP users' mind.  I don't expect that every XP user would have all of these thoughts. 

At the beginning of my post, I said that JRiver should be getting feedback from XP users. JRiver should try to get information from and about real MC users on Windows XP before planning the end of support for MC on XP. That would be a prudent step.

JRiver may find that XP users are not likely to yield much upgrade business until their PC running XP gives up the ghost.  However, that will probably happen in one to three years.  At that point, those users will be buying a new PC with a recent version of Windows and installing software.  They might be quite receptive to an MC upgrade then. (Or an ID.)

I could imagine that JRiver might announce the change in support with a positive email like this:

"As we develop MC 2x for Windows, we will be using features that are not available under Windows XP. MC2x will not work fully under XP.  We recommend that you continue using MC2x-1 on computers running XP.  When you are ready to move to a later version of Windows (7,8 or 10), consider upgrading to the current version of MC."
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glynor

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Re: Continued Support for Windows XP?
« Reply #56 on: July 05, 2015, 09:32:17 pm »

Checking with XP based customers before you cut them loose might be prudent.

I believe that is exactly the point of this thread.

I don't see a ton of people coming out of the woodwork saying "I run XP on my primary machine and I'd like to pay for the next version of MC on it."  Those are the only answers that matter, really.

Are there more out there, just holding back for some reason?

Now, certainly Interact doesn't reach everyone. But there is no perfect way to reach everyone. A mass mailing might generate a few more responses, but (1) I think they were trying this first, (2) that comes with a huge set of problems, and (3) response rates for mass mailings like this are usually somewhat dismal.

They were trying to gauge the reaction. So far, I see a few people, but many of the responses have been somewhat ambiguous as well (not my primary machine, I'm guessing others feel like X, etc, etc). Certainly no groundswell of opposition to the idea.
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mschneid

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Re: Continued Support for Windows XP?
« Reply #57 on: July 05, 2015, 10:38:30 pm »

I don't see a ton of people coming out of the woodwork saying "I run XP on my primary machine and I'd like to pay for the next version of MC on it."  Those are the only answers that matter, really.
huh....
....   It's the 4th pc in house...   Its not worth the time to upgrade it...  even when the cost is only time.   not to mention the cost of a unix mc  license. ...  So, when MC upgrades and the trial version of the latest version won't access my music library... that will freeze my MC upgrade path
 untill a) I absolutely want a new feature or b)... the  xp machine dies and I consider upgrading.  The issue for me is strictly the library version compatibility.

I must admit...   I really am a primary audio user...  MC nailed that market a long time ago....  Upgrades are really to satisfy curiosity and support the effort...  So...  chances are old Pc's will die off before this becomes an issue.  MC will just need to clearly label the compatibility pathways.  As long as the tradeoffs are clear to me... I have no problems with MC moving onwards.





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kstuart

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Re: Continued Support for Windows XP?
« Reply #58 on: July 06, 2015, 01:09:30 pm »

This is the public MC forum, not the Windows 10 users club, so I really don't get where you are going with these comments.
No matter which Windows version you are using, you can visit this forum. :p
But if you are visiting this Forum, you are less likely to be running XP.

Just as a frequent participant in "Supercar Enthusiast Forum" is unlikely to be driving an 1985 Honda Civic.

To get feedback from XP users, send an email (something that JRiver already does from time to time).

JimH

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Re: Continued Support for Windows XP?
« Reply #59 on: July 06, 2015, 01:50:57 pm »

But if you are visiting this Forum, you are less likely to be running XP.
I don't think you can be sure of that.  Remember that people visit the forum in order to learn about MC.
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gvanbrunt

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Re: Continued Support for Windows XP?
« Reply #60 on: July 06, 2015, 05:46:19 pm »

I'm sticking by my suggestion of:

"As of MC21, Windows XP is no longer officially supported and there may be features of MC that will not work on this version of Windows."

I'd not code MC21 to prevent it from running on XP... I'd just not test, fix, or respond to issues with with MC running MC on XP from MC21 onwards.  If it happens to continue working great.  If it fails so be it.

Something to keep in mind though: If someone who uses XP uses the MC21 trial version, buys the product, then finds bugs 6 months later only to be told "XP isn't supported". They are not going to be happy. At the very least there should be a warning when running on XP for the first time etc....

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lendall

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Re: Continued Support for Windows XP?
« Reply #61 on: August 19, 2015, 02:51:18 pm »

 >:( What bugs me is that I have already paid for MC21 and now because I am only finding this thread today I am learning that it may not work on my computers.  >:(

All this talk about XP being dead is bull.  The market share figures are pure Microsoft propaganda.  The UK government pays Microsoft a fortune to continue using XP, as does the US Navy, etc. etc.  Why?  Because they do not want to spend a fortune investing in new hardware, and because in many ways XP is more of a business-oriented OS, certainly more than Windows 8 or 10, and in some ways more than Windows 7.

If "upgrading my computer" were merely a matter of spending several thousand dollars on hardware and the current MS Office suite, then migrating my data, that would be painful but acceptable.  However I am, among other things, a composer, and I have a great deal of customized software I use in that connection.  Bringing a Windows 10 computer up to speed so that I can function would take weeks, and I know for a fact that much of my customized software will not work in Windows 10.  Unless most people, probably, I spend less than 50% of my time working (and for me my computer is basically a work device) on software made by Microsoft.  And again, I know that much (most) of the software I work with will not work on the new versions of NT (which, in case anyone loses sight of this, are all Vista, 7, 8 and 10 are -- repackaged versions of NT, the last "new" operating system Microsoft developed). 

For the record I would like to see MC 21 (not MC 20) as a version of MC that is fully compatible with XP, and after that JRiver can do whatever it likes.

  ;D And hey, guys:  I was going to clear time to do the MC21 upgrade within the next couple of days, so please let me know pretty soon so that I don't waste my time and find myself messing up my media libraries.
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BryanC

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Re: Continued Support for Windows XP?
« Reply #62 on: August 19, 2015, 02:58:22 pm »

>:( What bugs me is that I have already paid for MC21 and now because I am only finding this thread today I am learning that it may not work on my computers.  >:(

All this talk about XP being dead is bull.  The market share figures are pure Microsoft propaganda.  The UK government pays Microsoft a fortune to continue using XP, as does the US Navy, etc. etc.  Why?  Because they do not want to spend a fortune investing in new hardware, and because in many ways XP is more of a business-oriented OS, certainly more than Windows 8 or 10, and in some ways more than Windows 7.

If "upgrading my computer" were merely a matter of spending several thousand dollars on hardware and the current MS Office suite, then migrating my data, that would be painful but acceptable.  However I am, among other things, a composer, and I have a great deal of customized software I use in that connection.  Bringing a Windows 10 computer up to speed so that I can function would take weeks, and I know for a fact that much of my customized software will not work in Windows 10.  Unless most people, probably, I spend less than 50% of my time working (and for me my computer is basically a work device) on software made by Microsoft.  And again, I know that much (most) of the software I work with will not work on the new versions of NT (which, in case anyone loses sight of this, are all Vista, 7, 8 and 10 are -- repackaged versions of NT, the last "new" operating system Microsoft developed). 

For the record I would like to see MC 21 (not MC 20) as a version of MC that is fully compatible with XP, and after that JRiver can do whatever it likes.

  ;D And hey, guys:  I was going to clear time to do the MC21 upgrade within the next couple of days, so please let me know pretty soon so that I don't waste my time and find myself messing up my media libraries.

I would recommend installing Windows 7 and using XP mode for Windows Virtual PC. That way you can run software that is dropping support for XP alongside your tried and true XP music programs seamlessly.
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mattkhan

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Re: Continued Support for Windows XP?
« Reply #63 on: August 19, 2015, 04:12:11 pm »

All this talk about XP being dead is bull.  The market share figures are pure Microsoft propaganda.  The UK government pays Microsoft a fortune to continue using XP, as does the US Navy, etc. etc.  Why?  Because they do not want to spend a fortune investing in new hardware, and because in many ways XP is more of a business-oriented OS, certainly more than Windows 8 or 10, and in some ways more than Windows 7.
I don't think any argument that relies on the UK Govt approach to technology is one that is worth making :D

Unfortunately you'll have to accept that XP, as a consumer OS, is dead and that you will end up needing to migrate. It would be wise to work on that strategy now before it is forced upon you, always good to have options after all :)
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millst

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Re: Continued Support for Windows XP?
« Reply #64 on: August 21, 2015, 05:39:52 pm »

For correctness, Windows XP is based on the NT kernel. Also, an operating system is a lot more than just the kernel.

As far as software companies go, Microsoft is one of the better ones in the area of backwards compatibility and support. They provided security patches to XP for many, many years. Windows has provided various compatibility modes to run old apps. The newest Office still opens ancient Office documents.

Unfortunately, for many, Microsoft is moving on. It's too costly and limits moving forward. I don't think you'll find anything from Google, Apple, or the UNIX/Linux community that is better for LTS. Can't blame JRiver for doing the same, although it should be clear to anyone upgrading before paying (if it isn't).

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ssands

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Re: Continued Support for Windows XP?
« Reply #65 on: August 21, 2015, 06:48:13 pm »

Beside using XP Mode as was suggested earlier, there is also a compatibility dropdown on the properties for each program. This often helps if there is an issue. You choose the OS you need to be compatible with - has worked well the rare time I've needed it. I only ever used XP mode for a hardware driver for an old large scanner I sometimes needed).

Your biggest issues in using Win10 (I skipped 8.x) will be ensuring you have drivers for audio, wireless, etc.

I imagine any software you are using as a composer is also going through or has gone through an upgrade cycle (or several) for the latest OS's.

That said I still use an old Win 95 laptop to control a MIDI rig I have. But I would never expect it to do anything new. It's an old spare and runs the old programs. But it is really ancilliary to making music.
(Plus all this upgrade business is why I bought LOTS of hardware/outboard gear in the late '90's when everyone else went computerized. I got great equipment at a good price and it doesn't get obsolete). ;)
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jaxtherogue

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Re: Continued Support for Windows XP?
« Reply #66 on: August 21, 2015, 09:32:07 pm »

I don't see how one can expect a 3rd party to support a platform that the first party no longer provides meaningful support for. In some ways it's asking JRiver to assume those support costs themselves- some governments are willing to pay a fortune (using your dollars, btw) to sit on an old platform- is that a cost you are willing to bear yourself should JRiver pass that expense on to you?

And as a side note- as someone who works in IT in a large enterprise Windows 10 has many features that make it much better for the enterprise over Windows XP. The management capabilities are greatly expanded.
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