Topic: Routing audio from other programs (Read 8731 times)

mojave · « **on:** July 21, 2010, 03:21:10 pm »

Now that MC can do room correction and bass management and paramentric EQ (using a VST plugin) I would like to be able to measure the in room changes in frequency response and EQ my bass. In the past I have use Room Equalization Wizard (REW) on the computer to generate sweeps and measure the room response using a calibrated microphone. The bass management was done via soundcard drivers and the EQ via a Behringer DCX2496. This made it easy to use REW as a standalone program for testing.

Now that MC is the only program I need, I can eliminate my hardware. I still need to measure using REW's signals and route them through MC. I can't really think of anyway to do this with the way MC is currently setup. There are some options that might be able to be implemented.

1. REW can output using the Java Sound Audio Engine. Could MC select this as an input or source?

2. I own a license for Virtual Audio Cable. It shows up as a soundcard device. I can set it as the output, but I can't select it as an input in MC. If MC would allow the source to be an input, like Line In, then I could select it.

3. MC could have its own soundcard driver. I could select that as an output in REW and it would then stream through MC.

4. Is there a way to stream the audio from REW to an IP or URL address and then open that stream in MC?

5. Maybe REW could be programmed to be a VST plugin that could have its output routed through the Room Correction and Bass Management DSP's.

Any suggestions?

I dream of the day when I can hook up my microphone, run REW through MC and have it create correction filters, import those filters into MC's own parametric EQ, and playback music/movies on my fully calibrated system.

Alex B · « **Reply #1 on:** July 21, 2010, 04:14:56 pm »

Quote

If MC would allow the source to be an input, like Line In, then I could select it

I have requested this before. (... searching ...)

Since MC is now a capable preamp/processor and can replace a HT receiver it should also have a line input.

It would be good for testing purposes, but also good for hooking up various external audio sources (vinyl record player, analog FM tuner, audio from a VHS machine, microphones, etc).

Some kind of a "karaoke" mixer would further extend the feature nicely. In addition to actual singing or playing an instrument, it could be used for voice-over announcements when DJ'ing in a party.

The developers could take the existing sound recorder component and create a modified version that can mix its output with the the standard playback stream (before DSP studio, so that the DSP features would be available).

EDIT

Here's the old request:

Quote from: Alex B on September 18, 2009, 05:20:58 pm

... Regarding to the actual topic, I think a new input option for playing (capturing) a live audio signal directly from the Windows mixer would be very useful. Then MC's familiar interface and the DSP features could be used with external sources. The feature is already partially implemented in MC's sound recorder. Only the output redirection part would be needed. Then it would be to possible to use MC as a SW surround processor / preamp for all signal sources.

Perhaps that feature could also work as a karaoke mixer. Then you could play an audio file and mix it with a live sound stream from a microphone or an instrument.

mojave · « **Reply #2 on:** August 19, 2010, 10:12:19 pm »

Matt mentioned in another thread that "Hulu and Netflix do not allow native playback in third party playback engines on the PC, so we can not control sound routing. From JRiver's perspective, this is lousy. But it is out of JRiver's control." If you have Virtual Audio Cable installed, you can set that as your default Windows audio device. With a VST host program, you can then select the Virtual Audio Cable Line In as your source and route the playback through VST plugins. I can already route Hulu and Netflix through bass management, delay and level settings, and EQ VST plugins.

If MC was to do something similar, it would solve this issue. It needs two components. First would be a Media Center Audio Device. This would be similar to VAC and would allow multichannel playback through it and could be setup as a default audio device in Windows. Second, there would need to be a new DSP/VST host that accepts inputs (or a modification to the existing host). This would automatically accept the Media Center Audio Device. Hulu, Netflix, and any other program could now be routed through Media Center for bass management, etc.

When installing MC, the audio device would automatically be installed, too. Users could be asked if they want that as their default audio device. If they say "yes" then all sources would be automatically routed through MC.

Here is the website for Virtual Audio Cable: http://software.muzychenko.net/eng/vac.htm. Maybe this could even be licensed by MC.

nwboater · « **Reply #3 on:** August 20, 2010, 08:10:52 am »

+1 on the need for a Line Input. I now have a multi channel soundcard and am using MC15 for Bass Management duties. I previously used REW with our DCX2496 for subwoofer calibration. But now I'm stuck without a way to send the REW output to MC.

BTW we have eliminated a receiver and are attempting to do all of those functions within our HTPC.

We have an old VCR that we occasionally want to use and need to route the audio through MC. Using an external switchbox multiple audio inputs could be selected.

JRiver has made some wonderful progress in the audio area. I sure do hope they will continue in this direction.

Thanks,
Rod

paradise · « **Reply #4 on:** August 26, 2010, 06:29:05 pm »

BradC · « **Reply #5 on:** August 26, 2010, 07:17:26 pm »

With the use of a VST host called Console you can achieve what the OP wishes.

Here's how it would work: You do all your bass management and EQ using vst plugins inside the Console host (no jriver bass management used). Console loads as a VST plugin inside jriver.

To use REW, run console externally to jriver and test the vst plugin settings.

Console uses asio. To get the external operation to work you need to route the output of REW to asio. This can be achieved with virtual audio cable and ASIO4All (or soundcards that have loopback).

The only catch is that jriver is not yet working correctly with the Console vst plugin! I am hoping this bug will be fixed shortly.

nwboater · « **Reply #6 on:** August 26, 2010, 07:29:39 pm »

BradC,

You sure had me pumped - ie until I read your last line!

Do we know where the bug is, MC or Console?

Lets hope this can get fixed soon, even if it does seem a somewhat convoluted approach.

Thanks,
Rod

mojave · « **Reply #7 on:** August 27, 2010, 01:50:43 pm »

Quote from: BradC on August 26, 2010, 07:17:26 pm

To use REW, run console externally to jriver and test the vst plugin settings.

Last time I tried Console, I couldn't get it to run in Vista (I'm now using Windows 7). I have tried REAPER and found it worked well with VAC and the VST plugins I was using. This is only for using REW outside of MC since REAPER can't be loaded as VST plugin like Console.

BradC · « **Reply #8 on:** August 27, 2010, 07:29:19 pm »

Console was working inside MC prior to build 95, but it wouldn't save presets.

Support was added in build 95 to enable saving of the presets, but something else broke, as MC won't even load console now.

I am hoping for a fix soon.

Matt · « **Reply #9 on:** August 27, 2010, 08:00:39 pm »

Here's a related thread:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=59329.0

BradC · « **Reply #10 on:** September 01, 2010, 02:56:24 am »

With build 101 Console works in MC and I can save presets.

So even though it is complicated, the OP can implement room correction using MC and measurements with REW, VAC and asio4All.

I am actually working on a setup that runs a stand-alone VST host to perform room correction, bass management and delays to work with TMT3 at 48kHz.

Then for MC, it runs Console internally at 96kHz.
I have written scripts to automatically change the mixer settings and open and close the necessary programs. I am using a RME fireface 800 soundcard, which will eventually allow me to turn my front speakers into active 3 ways speakers with digital crossovers.

nwboater · « **Reply #11 on:** October 04, 2010, 09:27:41 am »

It looks like we can't use TV in MC (With HD PVR MC wont show guide or tune) so I need to use Sage for TV. Since we have eliminated a receiver and are using MC for all audio this becomes a serious problem - how to get the audio from Sage into MC?

And if we can route the audio from Sage there may be a delay in MCs output as mentioned here http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=59329.msg401009#msg401009. It could be a few seconds which would of course cause major sync issues with Sage's video.

Does anyone know if the audio delay would be this long? If so it's probably not worth the bother of trying to get the SageTV audio into MC. Then I don't know what I'll do, unless there is some way to treat the SageTV audio outside of MC. I need Bass Management and multiple parametric equalizers for the sub. Last resort is to reinstall our Behringer DCX2496 for sub duties.

Any ideas would sure be appreciated.

Thanks,
Rod

mojave · « **Reply #12 on:** October 04, 2010, 10:41:44 am »

I had a a MyHD MDP-130 tuner card for several years. It could only be tuned/recorded with its own software. For archived shows, this wasn't an issue because I could still use any program I wanted to view the recorded TS file. For live viewing, I would start the recording and then use Theatertek to view the file about 5-10 seconds behind the recording. The file being recorded wasn't locked so other applications could still access the recording. Theatertek would constantly poll the in use file so that the length of file would always be accurate. The downside of this method is that you can't channel surf.

You could probably do the same with MC if the file isn't locked while recording. If it is locked, have it broken into smaller chunks. Start the recording with Sage and then open the file for playback with MC. You now have the audio and video in MC.

nwboater · « **Reply #13 on:** October 04, 2010, 10:49:46 am »

Hi Michael,

Thanks for the interesting approach. It would probably work, but I don't know about my wife doing it that way. And WAF is very important here!

Rod

BradC · « **Reply #14 on:** October 04, 2010, 06:49:12 pm »

You don't need MC to be able to apply bass management etc.
This can be done with virtual audio cable (VAC), VST host and a bass management VST plugin.

However, I was only able to get VAC to work in stereo. For this approach to work more reliably you need a sound card that supports sound rerouting. A cheap one is the ESI Prodigy HiFi (for XP only though). The other option is professional cards such as EMU and RME cards are more expensive.

I use a RME fireface 800 and have written scripts so that the vst host loads and sets the mixer preset, for use in windows media center (TV and blu-ray/dvd). Then for music, I close windows media center (scripts close vst host and reset mixer) and run MC, which loads the vst plugins internally.

nwboater · « **Reply #15 on:** October 04, 2010, 07:57:12 pm »

Hi Brad,

Thanks for the suggestions. Our soundcard is a new Asus Essence ST with their H6 daughter card - this is the same as Mojave has. We are using it in a 5.1 configuration. I can't tell anything from it's specs or spartan manual if it supports 'Sound Routing'.

I looked up the Prodigy card you mentioned and it says "DirectWIRE support to record any signal from any source internally". Is that the Routing you are talking about?

Just got the Essence card and am very pleased with it so would hate to change now.

We have all our media ripped to a WHS machine. We are using MC on a Client PC for audio, ripped DVD's (later Blue Rays), and television recorded from SageTV. Live TV from SageTV on the Client is the only thing that we don't run from MC. It would be nice to get 5.1 from our live tv (guess that's AC3?), but 2 channel would get us by.

So it sounds like VAC, a VST host, a bass management plugin, and GLiss EQ that I bought for sub parametric equalization would work for stereo. But could we get 2.1 without a soundcard that supports routing?

When you said "For this approach to work more reliably you need a sound card that supports sound rerouting." did you mean to get better than 2.0 or 2.1? Or did you mean reliably working at all?

What's involved in your scripts? Not sure it's something I could create. And I guess they are needed for automatic operation of the system when changing between MC and, in your case WMC.

Seems you do have a very good working system now.

Rod

mojave · « **Reply #16 on:** October 04, 2010, 10:08:10 pm »

Quote from: nwboater on October 04, 2010, 07:57:12 pm

I can't tell anything from it's specs or spartan manual if it supports 'Sound Routing'.

No, the Essence ST does not support "sound routing."

Quote

I looked up the Prodigy card you mentioned and it says "DirectWIRE support to record any signal from any source internally". Is that the Routing you are talking about?

I'll answer for him and say "yes."

BradC · « **Reply #17 on:** October 06, 2010, 06:43:06 pm »

If virtual audio cable works for you you can do 2.1. Maybe 5.1

I could not get it to work for more than stereo on vista. Haven't tried on win7.

The reason I say reliably, is that I didn't have much success with virtual audio cable.
I believe there is another piece of software called Jack that can do channel routing, but I didn't investigate it.

I purchased a prodigy hifi (they are hard to find), but its drivers for win 7 are crap. Only works on XP.

My main motivation for getting the RME card was to get room correction and bass management working with TMT3 for bluray. (second hand sound card still a lot cheaper than a new surround processor that has the same functions). As TMT3 only outputs to directsound, the channel routing works like this:

direct sound software out -> unused hardware out -> loopback to hardware input via software -> VST host processes audio from input -> mixer redirects vsthost output to desired hardware output -> power amp

Believe it or not it works.

Have you tested the bass management and EQ in the essence ST drivers?

nwboater · « **Reply #18 on:** October 08, 2010, 07:16:06 pm »

Brad - Thanks for the further info. I won't have time to work on this until tomorrow (Sat.). I need to keep the system running for WAF in the evenings. With our new HD TV there are lots of other changes going on. Hopefully this weekend I'll get a good chunk of time in all this and can make some progress.

I looked into Jack and don't think it can easily be connected to our other aps. Too bad!

The Bass Management in the Essence ST software is very minimal, but I could probably get by with it. The real problem is our sub, the Danley DST-10 Tapped Horn. It's anything but flat! I need multiple parametric equalizers for it, and Essence sw only has a single graphics that only goes down to 30 Hz. That's why at Mojaves suggestion I ended up using the Gliss EQ VST plugin which has worked well for us in MC.

Rod

audunth · « **Reply #19 on:** October 11, 2010, 05:42:04 pm »

+1 for a line input in MC, would be great to play Blu-rays w/TMT3 and various web media through MC's sound engine for room correction etc.

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Author Topic: Routing audio from other programs (Read 8731 times)