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[alerma]

Hi,
I am a bit confused by behavior of Volume Leveling and Clip Protection, how they play together. I believe that after a song had analyzed, MC has all the info about its peak levels, and there should be a good reason for Volume Leveling to set a volume higher than Clip Protection level (see picture).

In audio path it says:
Adjust volume by +0.0 dB for Replay Gain
Adjust volume by -1.5 dB for clip protection

The Volume Leveling does a good job of keeping a volume the same for all tracks, but could it be done more intelligently, not crossing the clip level?

--

[Matt]

Automatic adjust mode for Replay Gain already picks the highest gain that will lead to no clipping.

I think the clipping you're seeing is from the headphone DSP.  I'll look at making it a little more conservative to avoid this, although clip protection works well for something like this where the gain is pretty consistent.

You might also consider Internal Volume:
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Volume#Internal_Volume_Headroom

[Matt]

This is old, but I've been meaning to add a cut to the Headphones DSP because of this.

It'll finally be there next build:
Changed: Added a 3dB cut to the Headphones effect so that increases from cross-feed won't lead to clipping.

[ogs]

This is old, but I've been meaning to add a cut to the Headphones DSP because of this.

It'll finally be there next build:
Changed: Added a 3dB cut to the Headphones effect so that increases from cross-feed won't lead to clipping.

Hi Matt, most appreciated.
One Q: Does 'Clip Protection' handle inter sample clipping?

[Matt]

Hi Matt, most appreciated.
One Q: Does 'Clip Protection' handle inter sample clipping?

Yes, clip protection handles all types of clipping by turning the volume down a little.

[Richard123]

Hi, I have signed up to Tidal and am very pleased with the quality.
I seem to have to set the volume via the parametric eq. volume in DSP to a gain of -43 to stop clipping. The sound is good and I am happy with it all but is this the norm ?

P.S. If I remove all DSP etc. I still need a gain of -35 to -40 depending on what music I am streaming.

[imeric]

Not sure I understand why JRiver is not using and writing to the "Standard" Replaygain Track and Album gain tags anymore.  I understand the need for the new Peak level ones but why not keep using the existing and well known replaygain tags? The Volume (R128) one is always 5dB higher than the Volume (replaygain) anyway...

The new R128 algorithm is just smarter but the idea is the same so why the change?

If it would be possible to have the Volume Level (ReplayGain) copied to the standard replaygain_track_gain tag in order to comply with other softwares that would be great.

thx

[JimH]

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=82025.0

[Hendrik]

The standard replaygain tracks are written in MC20. I don't know where you get any other information.

[6233638]

One Q: Does 'Clip Protection' handle inter sample clipping?

The R128 analysis in MC19/20 will.
ReplayGain in older versions will not.

Not sure I understand why JRiver is not using and writing to the "Standard" Replaygain Track and Album gain tags anymore.  I understand the need for the new Peak level ones but why not keep using the existing and well known replaygain tags? The Volume (R128) one is always 5dB higher than the Volume (replaygain) anyway...
The new R128 algorithm is just smarter but the idea is the same so why the change?
If it would be possible to have the Volume Level (ReplayGain) copied to the standard replaygain_track_gain tag in order to comply with other softwares that would be great.

R128 analysis is a lot better than ReplayGain v1.
Media Center only uses the R128 tags for volume leveling.
 
It also writes ReplayGain tags based on the R128 analysis, by adding 5dB - because the leveling target for R128 is -23dBFS, while ReplayGain is -18dBFS. (in fact, I seem to recall MC's old ReplayGain target being non-standard, so the official spec may be different)
This is for compatibility with other devices that may use the ReplayGain tags, not for MC's own use.
The results will differ from an actual ReplayGain v1 analysis tool, since they're just offset R128 values.
 
An example of where this is useful would be if you're syncing tracks to a portable device. That way you get the benefits of Media Center's improved R128 analysis when enabling "ReplayGain".

And keeping the R128 tags separate from ReplayGain tags means that if you have another program re-analyze the files, the R128 information is not overwritten.

The standard replaygain tracks are written in MC20.

If I recall correctly, MC writes track data but not album data.
This is because MC calculates what an "album" is on-the-fly with the R128 system - which is a big improvement over the old fixed-level album gain.
However it would be useful if MC still calculated and wrote the old style of album gain into the file tags so that you can enable album-based leveling when you copy those tracks to a portable device.

If I recall correctly, that and the ability to somehow tag albums in a way which will force track-based leveling inside MC are the only two things remaining for the R128 system to be "complete".
 
I would also like it if MC wrote iTunNORM values into the files on analysis, based on the R128 information so that I can enable SoundCheck on my phone and get the same high-quality leveling, but there does not seem to be any interest in that.

Hi, I have signed up to Tidal and am very pleased with the quality.
I seem to have to set the volume via the parametric eq. volume in DSP to a gain of -43 to stop clipping. The sound is good and I am happy with it all but is this the norm ?
P.S. If I remove all DSP etc. I still need a gain of -35 to -40 depending on what music I am streaming.

That does not sound right at all. Are you applying other DSP?
What are you using to determine whether something is clipping?

[Richard123]

Hi 6233....,

If I knock out all DSP's I still am at c.-35.

Microsoft Media Player is uninstalled and any other drivers are disabled.

I normally run Tidal>windows 8.1>SSD Hard drive>DFX (set to 1 on all, buffering 10 ms)> JRiver (various DSP settings, buffering in at min. out at min)>Wasapi out to USB  Sabre 24/96 async. > Silver interconnect > Marantz PM6004 amp> Celestion Ditton 44 speakers (for warmth!)

With this setup the sound etc. is GOOD and as good as any CD I use to compare to streaming.

If I remove DFX I only gain c.3db and sounds better with so it stays.

I have enabled R128 (last night) and redused DSP vol gain to -25, which gives more final volume at the amp. With this set up on JRiver DSP it shows a clipping of 0 to 3% which is OK and the end sound is good.

[Richard123]

WOOOOOPs  - Ok, I am learning, it is not clipping but Peak Level at 0 to 3 %, I have upped the Peak Level to 5-8% and it sounds good any higher and it starts to sound harsh (to much attack and higher frequency) and start to loose resinance in the strings in the bass and have to use the DSP Eq to try to compensate.

So I will use R128 and DSP vol gain -16 and stick with that and start to relax and listen to a few albums.

[6233638]

Peak level can reach 99% without clipping.
Unless you see Media Center saying that it has reduced the level to avoid clipping in the Audio Path, then it isn't.
 
Something else in your setup may be clipping - or perhaps Tidal's copy of the album itself is clipped, but it won't be MC.

[magnust]

I still would like the Audio Path icon to turn red on clipping so it's visible at a glance (as it turns blue on "direct path")

[6233638]

I still would like the Audio Path icon to turn red on clipping so it's visible at a glance (as it turns blue on "direct path")

I like this idea.