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[DocLotus]

i have all my TV Recording Rules Options set for...
TV Recording Options, Cleanup Mode, Delete After 1 Day.

I thought they were previously working but now notice that my HD is filling up as the old recordings are not being deleted after one day (or after any time).

Is this feature broken?

[Yaobing]

The clean up will not be done if MC detects any tuner being used or any recording actions being scheduled for current time.  Do you think there might be a problem of tuners not being released?  I can't think of any other reasons.

I have not used the feature regularly so I can not confirm whether it is working or not.  I just scheduled a subscription recording, but I will not be able to see whether cleanup works until a couple of days later.

[DocLotus]

Do you think there might be a problem of tuners not being released?

I have been seeing a lot of the TSRRenders error messages in this version of MC, so yes I suspect turners are not being released.

[Yaobing]

The first subscription recording that I setup on Monday is now gone from my disk.  So it seems to be working correctly.

[DocLotus]

The first subscription recording that I setup on Monday is now gone from my disk.  So it seems to be working correctly.

Mine used to delete old subscriptions from the HD but now the HD just gets fuller & fuller with no deletions.

[DocLotus]

Could the "Keep at most 10 episodes" have any effect on this problem even though it is not checked?

[CountryBumkin]

I just setup a couple of subscriptions to test with. I'll report back in a couple of days if I see any of the same problems.

I setup a subscription to "delete after 1 day", another to "delete after 4 days", and one subscription to "keep at most 3 episodes".

Is it possible that the folder where the TV shows/recordings are stored is "Read-Write only".
I just checked the "default" Recording folder on my testing computer and it says the folder/files where my recordings go is "Read Only". However that didn't stop me from deleting a file just now so I don't know if this means anything.

[DocLotus]

Thanks; I await your test results.

[DocLotus]

Is it possible that the folder where the TV shows/recordings are stored is "Read-Write only".
I just checked the "default" Recording folder on my testing computer and it says the folder/files where my recordings go is "Read Only". However that didn't stop me from deleting a file just now so I don't know if this means anything.

I've noticed the folders where TV recordings are stored are a little odd...

1: Mine too show as "Read Only" but I can also delete them manually.
2: I un-check the "Read Only", it is automatically re-checked the next time I look at it.
3: Can't sort the TV Recordings (using Directory Opus); the sort order seems to be locked.
4: The old folder (now empty) where WMC recordings used to be stored also show as "Read Only" & is automatically re-checked the next time I look at it after removing the Read Only check.

[RoderickGI]

I have had a recording rule for a daily news show set up since MC18. It is currently set to delete programs after seven days, but I have changed that a couple of times, as I used to just keep two days, then four, now seven.

Through all versions and rule changes, that rule has kept working. I just checked it now, and I have just seven days of news saved.

So I think that functionality is working. So long as MC gets a chance to delete the programs, which means no scheduled or active recordings, and no live TV playing.

One thing that would stop this from working would be if you never hit stop before turning off your system at night or walking away from it, so that in theory a live TV channel is still playing. If a channel is playing and your MC Server is set to always stay awake, or sleep when not in use, it would probably never sleep. When you turn off your TV, Receiver, Amp, or whatever is connected to it, then it wouldn't be obvious that MC was still playing a TV channel, so MC couldn't delete recorded programs.

Could that be the issue? If so, just try stopping all TV before shutting down at night. Or try it right now.

[DocLotus]

One thing that would stop this from working would be if you never hit stop before turning off your system at night or walking away from it, so that in theory a live TV channel is still playing. If a channel is playing and your MC Server is set to always stay awake, or sleep when not in use, it would probably never sleep. When you turn off your TV, Receiver, Amp, or whatever is connected to it, then it wouldn't be obvious that MC was still playing a TV channel, so MC couldn't delete recorded programs.

Could that be the issue? If so, just try stopping all TV before shutting down at night. Or try it right now.

I think you are on to something... I seldom shut down MC separately from Windows shut down. Most of the time I simply put Windows into Hybrid Hibernate or Shutdown.

I see what you are saying but am wondering why MC has to be shut down for old recordings to be deleted?  Can't they simply be deleted the next time MC starts up? If not, why not?

[DocLotus]

One thing that would stop this from working would be if you never hit stop before turning off your system at night or walking away from it, so that in theory a live TV channel is still playing.

Stop Playing current selection OR Exit from MC?

Exit from MC gives the "Stop running tools / TV Recording" which seems to kill all playback or on-going recordings while simply hitting the "Stop Playback" button does not stop on-going recordings. If I'm playing music & hit "Stop" only the music is stopped but any on-going TV recordings continue.

[DocLotus]

If a channel is playing and your MC Server is set to always stay awake, or sleep when not in use, it would probably never sleep.

No server, only one stand-a-lone PC. I never use any of the Windows sleep modes; only Shut down or Hybrid Hibernate.

[DocLotus]

Could that be the issue? If so, just try stopping all TV before shutting down at night. Or try it right now.

I almost always have music playing (no current live TV playing) when I shut down Windows but, there is often one or more TV channels being recorded; does that have to be stopped also? If so, THAT is ONE BIG HASSLE. . That would mean I would have to Exit MC before each Windows Shutdown which seems to be an unnecessary extra step in shutting down Windows just so MC can delete some files. There has to be a better way to perform this very basic & simple task of file deletion.

[DocLotus]

Or try it right now.

I can't right now as last night I manually deleted all my recordings as the HD was filling up fast. Will try it later as a couple of days recordings are added to the HD.

[RoderickGI]

Stop Playing current selection OR Exit from MC?

I meant just stop playing any live TV. Leave all recordings alone. I assume there are some times when MC is running, but nothing is recording.

I also assume that playing music wouldn't prevent the TV recordings clean-up from running, but why don't you experiment with that. Yaobing may be able to clarify if playing music prevents the clean-up. Basically, MC background processes are run when nothing else is happening, so it is possible that playing music prevents the clean-up.

Also, if you are using MC all the time, then either shut down the PC or hibernate it, MC may not be getting any "quiet time" to run the clean-up. I suggest that you think about setting up the PC to sleep when not in use. You need that for scheduled recordings to work anyway. That should give MC some "quiet time" between when you finish using the PC, and before it goes to sleep.

[DocLotus]

I also assume that playing music wouldn't prevent the TV recordings clean-up from running, but why don't you experiment with that. Yaobing may be able to clarify if playing music prevents the clean-up. Basically, MC background processes are run when nothing else is happening, so it is possible that playing music prevents the clean-up.

THAT is a most interesting statement; gives one a lot to think about. I await Yaobing's answer.

Also, if you are using MC all the time, then either shut down the PC or hibernate it, MC may not be getting any "quiet time" to run the clean-up.

That sounds like my PC to a "T"... MC (music) runs at Windows startup & is never off until Windows shutdown.

I suggest that you think about setting up the PC to sleep when not in use. You need that for scheduled recordings to work anyway. That should give MC some "quiet time" between when you finish using the PC, and before it goes to sleep.

Are you saying that MC can record TV while in Windows Sleep mode?  If so, that is most interesting as I never thought that to be possible as the HD's are stopped.

Am also wondering about MC's need for "quiet time". I assume MC is a single-threaded application so it can only do one serious thing at a time? In today's world of multi-core CPU's why can't MC do several things at once (such as a simple file deletion in the background)?

[Yaobing]

Playing music does not prevent background TV tasks from being carried out. 

When there is a TV recording scheduled, at the time when Windows goes to sleep, MC sets up a wake timer for the system to wake up at the scheduled time.  Then the hard disk will wake up along with the rest of the system, to do TV recording.

[RoderickGI]

Ah. Yaobing beat me to the reply. So playing music shouldn't stop the clean-up process, but recording programs and watching TV live does. Below is my reply before I saw Yaobing's reply.

Are you saying that MC can record TV while in Windows Sleep mode?  If so, that is most interesting as I never thought that to be possible as the HD's are stopped.

Yes of course. That is how most people use it. If Windows is in sleep mode (S3) and a program is scheduled to be recorded, MC will wake the PC, including starting up the drives, record the program, and then go back to sleep again. Well, as long as sleep is set up correctly on the PC.

Am also wondering about MC's need for "quiet time". I assume MC is a single-threaded application so it can only do one serious thing at a time? In today's world of multi-core CPU's why can't MC do several things at once (such as a simple file deletion in the background)?

No MC is very multi-threaded. Would you really like MC to start analysing audio, doing maintenance on TV recordings such as deleting them, running an automatic backup, etc. while you are watching a HD video that uses significant PC resources, or listening to high fidelity music while relaxed on the couch in your listening room? Some people would object to that a lot.

Don't underestimate what is required to delete old programs. MC has to look up every rule to see when programs should be deleted, then look at what programs are still on disk, decide which to delete, and then the file is deleted. That is quite a bit of activity, and it could impact on the watching/listening experience of users.

Mind you, MC does run some background processes when other foreground activities are occurring, such as playing media. Only the developers can clarify what runs while watching TV or video, or listening to music, and what will not run.

[DocLotus]

Playing music does not prevent background TV tasks from being carried out.  

When there is a TV recording scheduled, at the time when Windows goes to sleep, MC sets up a wake timer for the system to wake up at the scheduled time.  Then the hard disk will wake up along with the rest of the system, to do TV recording.

Ahh... Both are good to know.  I assume once awake, the system will stay awake after the TV recording is completed?

The clean up will not be done if MC detects any tuner being used or any recording actions being scheduled for current time.

Why is the simple deletion of old TV recordings so dependent on all tuners being free? Why is it not a totally separate action?

[DocLotus]

Wonderful feedback... thanks.

Don't underestimate what is required to delete old programs. MC has to look up every rule to see when programs should be deleted, then look at what programs are still on disk, decide which to delete, and then the file is deleted. That is quite a bit of activity, and it could impact on the watching/listening experience of users.

How far back in time (MC version number) does this method of deleting old recordings go? What I'm wondering is, if it goes back a ways (in the days of dual-core, low speed CPU's) it may be time to consider an update as how it is carried out with today's faster systems as the impact on performance may now not be as great.

I often do many other things (such as viewing dual TV channels at the same time using both MC TV & WMC), deleting, moving files around, etc & seldom see any degradation of TV performance.

[RoderickGI]

I can think of two responses to the "Why does it happen this way" questions.

1. JRiver has only just dropped, or actually is about to drop, official support of Windows XP, and there was more than a little push back on that. Many people still use Windows XP on old hardware to run MC.
2. MC is an audiophile application. Anything that could upset the quality of audio, or video, is seen as a bad thing.

My understanding is that MC does a range of background TV activities on a regular basis, rather than just the clean-up. For example, it regularly checks if there are more programs to record based on rules, if I understand correctly. I suspect all those TV are done at once. So there may be something in that set of processes that requires a tuner to be available. Again, only Yaobing would know.

But I don't speak for JRiver. I'm sure changes will happen over time. Maybe not just yet though.


Also, if a PC is set to sleep when not in use, then woken to record a program, it will go back to sleep once the recording is finished. So no, the system will not stay awake after the TV recording is completed.

[DocLotus]

So there may be something in that set of processes that requires a tuner to be available.

The clean up will not be done if MC detects any tuner being used or any recording actions being scheduled for current time.  Do you think there might be a problem of tuners not being released?  I can't think of any other reasons.

If I read Yaobing's post correctly, ALL tuners must be free before the old recordings will be deleted. That is unacceptable as I have four tuners and there is often something always being recorded which means MC will NEVER delete the old recordings (which is exactly what is happening to me).

I do have a little "quite time" in the morning (week days only between 6:30 AM & 11:00 AM) where no TV is scheduled to be recorded nor do I view any TV during those hours. So why is MC not deleting the old recordings at that time? Is there a scheduled time that MC uses to do it's background work?

[DocLotus]

1. JRiver has only just dropped, or actually is about to drop, official support of Windows XP, and there was more than a little push back on that. Many people still use Windows XP on old hardware to run MC.

Ah, XP... brings back memories . Yes that would count as long ago (in the dark ages of dual-core, sub 2 GHz CPU's). But with it's passing & as MC is used on today's better hardware it may be time to re-think how old TV recordings are handled?

[Yaobing]

If I read Yaobing's post correctly, ALL tuners must be free before the old recordings will be deleted. That is unacceptable as I have four tuners and there is often something always being recorded which means MC will NEVER delete the old recordings (which is exactly what is happening to me).

I do have a little "quite time" in the morning (week days only between 6:30 AM & 11:00 AM) where no TV is scheduled to be recorded nor do I view any TV during those hours. So why is MC not deleting the old recordings at that time? Is there a scheduled time that MC uses to do it's background work?

Wow, that is intense! 

Your morning quiet time SHOULD be enough for MC to do clean up.  Is the computer running during that time?  If you always manually put computer in sleep, then there is no time for MC to do clean up.  You can try setting up Windows so it will automatically go to sleep after 20 minutes for example.

We make decisions to do thing this way based on various reasons.  Some may no longer be relevant.  One reason I can think of, and I believe is a good reason, is to reduce disk activity when there are already a lot of disk activities going on when a tuner is being used.

[DocLotus]

Your morning quiet time SHOULD be enough for MC to do clean up.  Is the computer running during that time?  If you always manually put computer in sleep, then there is no time for MC to do clean up.  You can try setting up Windows so it will automatically go to sleep after 20 minutes for example.

The computer runs all day long from about 7 AM to 10:30 PM seven days a week. It never goes to sleep, I usually do a Hybrid Hibernate or Shutdown.

We make decisions to do thing this way based on various reasons.  Some may no longer be relevant.  One reason I can think of, and I believe is a good reason, is to reduce disk activity when there are already a lot of disk activities going on when a tuner is being used.

That makes good sense, I now see why all tuners need to be free for background work to be carried out as TV recordings produce very large files that may indeed use up large amounts of disk activity. This is one of those "Catch 22" situations where darn if you do & darn if you don't.

What it all boils down to is if you most always have some viewing or recordings going on MC may not delete the old TV Recordings in a timely manor as it simply may not meet the requirements of all tuners being free at any one time (or for a long enough time to do the clean up).

Thank you, Yaobing.  Your explanation was most helpful indeed. I now have a much better understanding of the problems associated with TV recordings cleanup.

Now all I have to do is figure out a way to use all this great & wonderful info to make my MC TV actually do the clean up.

As it used to work I'm beginning to suspect the morning hours "quite time" may not be long enough to allow MC to do it's cleanup job. I may remove some more of the morning recording to give a "clean" quite time of let's say between 6 AM - 12 noon. That should be enough time for MC to do it's thing?

What do you think?

[Yaobing]

I can't imagine it needs more than a few minutes to do clean up, especially if it is done regularly.

[Yaobing]

Sorry, I misspoke yesterday.  Playing audio does prevent background TV tasks from being carried out.

On the other hand, disk clean up and EPG data loading are both in the same category.  If your EPG data are updated, that means MC did find a quiet time to carry out background tasks.

[DocLotus]

Sorry, I misspoke yesterday.  Playing audio does prevent background TV tasks from being carried out.

Oh... that's the reason cleanup is not working... I ALWAYS have music playing unless the TV is being viewed/recorded. I need to think about a work-a-round for that problem.

On the other hand, disk clean up and EPG data loading are both in the same category.  If your EPG data are updated, that means MC did find a quiet time to carry out background tasks.

EPG seems to be up to date, but I make so many changes so often & run so many test (like just an hour ago I changed out two of my tuners) it is sometimes difficult to tell when something updated itself automatically or I manually updated it. I should just leave everything alone for a couple of days & see what happens by itself.

I can't imagine it needs more than a few minutes to do clean up, especially if it is done regularly.

So cleanup can happen fairly fast then? Does cleanup start as soon as all MC tuners are free & no music is playing or is there a built-in delay or timer before it starts?

[Yaobing]

So cleanup can happen fairly fast then? Does cleanup start as soon as all MC tuners are free & no music is playing or is there a built-in delay or timer before it starts?

As soon as possible after 8 hours of last cleanup.

[DocLotus]

So the bottom line is anyone that has MC "always on" & always doing something with music or TV may not see TV cleanup; I think that is one more reason why we need a better way for MC to do TV recording cleanup. MC is after all one mean music player & that is what it is used most often for. If my computer is on MC is on (usually playing music) .

[DocLotus]

As soon as possible after 8 hours of last cleanup.

Will the cleanup routine still run if MC is NOT loaded? As no music or TV will be viewed or recorded if MC is not loaded I'm thinking that may be a way to delete the old recordings. Or will MC still tie up tuners if TV records are scheduled even if MC is not loaded?

[Yaobing]

No.  MC needs to be running for MC to do anything.

[RoderickGI]

Will the cleanup routine still run if MC is NOT loaded? As no music or TV will be viewed or recorded if MC is not loaded I'm thinking that may be a way to delete the old recordings. Or will MC still tie up tuners if TV records are scheduled even if MC is not loaded?

MC needs at least the MC Server or the MC Client running to do the background clean-up process. (Yaobing beat me again.  )
Tuners aren't tied up by future scheduled recordings of programs. They are only tied up when the recording process begins.

This is what I suggest you do.

1. Set up your PC to go to sleep when idle, rather than shutting it down or hibernating it manually when you don't need it.
2. Set the time delay for the PC to go to sleep to one hour. You may be able to reduce that to 30 minutes later if that is enough time for everything to happen. I use 30 minutes myself.
3. Make sure MC is set to start with Windows. In fact, you should have MC Server and MC starting with Windows.
4. Set up a Windows Task Schedule to wake the PC at say 2am everyday. If you are using Task Scheduler to collect EPG data outside MC, run this at 2am rather than at another time during the day.

The above will mean that the PC wakes at 2am, and MC is started. As the PC has nothing to do its sits idle for a little while, then MC will start doing its background processes. If you do an external to MC EPG collection at 2am, the PC will fall idle after that finishes, and then MC will run the background processes. After that finishes and the PC is idle for an hour, it will go to sleep.

Also, do you backup this PC at all? I run two overnight backups on my PC. One for the system drive and one for my data drive, at 2am and 4am respectively. This usually means that there is plenty of time to complete the backups, and plenty of idle time for MC to its job. You may want to implement something similar.

Another thing some people do is wake their PC during the night to have it reboot. That way the PC is rebooted at least once a day, which is usually a good thing to do. It means any installation that requires a reboot to complete will be finished, and it cleans up memory, any running processes and so on. I don't do this with my HTPC at the moment, but it is something I have been thinking about doing. You just need to make sure that the reboot only happens when the PC is idle in case of late night recordings, and that if it can't reboot immediately it wakes, then it will try again later when the PC is idle. There are Task Scheduler settings for all those issues.

[DocLotus]

I'll try your suggestions... let me think about it first for awhile.

I do routine backups...
!: Weekly drive image of C:\ to... rotated between E & F.
2: Various folders on drive D:\ to... rotated between E & F.
3: Drive image of D:\ to... rotated between E & F when new E or F drives are installed into rack.

[DeaneG]

OK, now I understand why my "delete after 24 hours" recordings often last much longer than that.

[CountryBumkin]

Perhaps JRiver could add a "manual clean up" feature where a User could select to run all the background tasks regardless of what is going on in the foreground. Then if the process impacts audio playback or such, the User would learn this and not use the manual feature. But it may be the case that some Users have a powerful enough computer to run background cleanup process without impacting video/audio playback. Or User may set aside some dedicated maintenance time to run the cleanup routine.

[DocLotus]

Perhaps JRiver could add a "manual clean up" feature where a User could select to run all the background tasks regardless of what is going on in the foreground. Then if the process impacts audio playback or such, the User would learn this and not use the manual feature. But it may be the case that some Users have a powerful enough computer to run background cleanup process without impacting video/audio playback. Or User may set aside some dedicated maintenance time to run the cleanup routine.

Good idea; I would use it several times a week as nothing is working right now. For me currently, a manual solution seems to be the only answer.

Last night I rebooted the computer, stopped all MC playing & went to bed at 11 PM thinking cleanup would delete (during the night) my 4 days of TV recordings. At 1 PM today (14 hours later) there are now FIVE days of TV recordings... NOTHING WAS DELETED  

Why is this not working??? Is there an option switch somewhere that needs to be turned on? If so, I can't find it.

This is driving me nuts. I may go back to WMC as I've had so many problems with MC TV.

I really, really want to use MC TV but when I look at WMC & see the simple, clean, straight forward, easy to use, reliable (for me anyway) interface I have to ask myself why am I such a glutton for punishment by staying with MC TV?

I guess it's because I love this program so much (but... there is only so much love to go around & currently does not extend to the TV; hope that changes in the near future ).

[DocLotus]

Sorry, I misspoke yesterday.  Playing audio does prevent background TV tasks from being carried out.

Suggest you take another look at that requirement. As MC can record TV while audio is playing (which seems to be a more disk intensive operation than deleting the recordings) I see no reason why we can't have TV recording cleanup carried out at the same time as audio is playing as playing audio has a fairly low disk activity.

Maybe TV recording deletions need to be a separate function from all the other clean up operations just to split the load around a little.

On the other hand, disk clean up and EPG data loading are both in the same category.  If your EPG data are updated, that means MC did find a quiet time to carry out background tasks.

I get a constant 12 days of MS Rovi EPG all the time so I guess background TV tasks are being carried out. Why is my TV recording cleanup not working??? Is there an option switch somewhere that needs to be turned on? If so, I can't find it.

[Yaobing]

I get a constant 12 days of MS Rovi EPG all the time so I guess background TV tasks are being carried out. Why is my TV recording cleanup not working??? Is there an option switch somewhere that needs to be turned on? If so, I can't find it.

That is puzzling.  There is not any option for this except your recording rules.  Also, I think someone already mentioned this, are your disk access rights set correctly (your user account is allowed to delete files)?

Does the situation change if you run MC as administrator?

[DocLotus]

That is puzzling.  There is not any option for this except your recording rules.  Also, I think someone already mentioned this, are your disk access rights set correctly (your user account is allowed to delete files)?

I've had no problems manually deleting files.

Does the situation change if you run MC as administrator?

I am the administrator. My PC is a single stand-a-lone desktop that Windows automatically set me up as Admin.

[Yaobing]

I've had no problems manually deleting files.

I am the administrator. My PC is a single stand-a-lone desktop that Windows automatically set me up as Admin.

I could be wrong on this, but I believe there is a difference between you being an administrator and running MC as an administrator.  I think normally an application is run without the administrator rights, even if it is run in the account of an administrator (i.e. you).  So you being able to manually delete files does not necessarily translate into MC being able to delete files.

[DocLotus]

I could be wrong on this, but I believe there is a difference between you being an administrator and running MC as an administrator.  I think normally an application is run without the administrator rights, even if it is run in the account of an administrator (i.e. you).  So you being able to manually delete files does not necessarily translate into MC being able to delete files.

THAT may be the ultimate answer

Glad you brought it up, I have been wondering about that also.  I know I don't have FULL administration rights (even though I'm listed as the Admin under Windows User Accounts). One or two other programs over the last couple of years had kept bugging me with pop-ups suggesting I "Run As Administrator" & asking if I want to do so; I would click "Yes" & they would then do their thing (like let me make major changes to the program).

So, I'm not sure just how to get FULL Admin rights to MC. Using Google Search, I've looked at how to get FULL Admin rights to all of Windows but am confused if that may open me up to possible hack attacks (searching that subject returns conflicting results).

Could you help me on this?

THANKS.

[CountryBumkin]

Maybe this article/tutorial will help http://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/3587-owner-files-folders-change-windows-10-a.html

and http://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/2969-administrator-account-enable-disable-windows-10-a.html

[Yaobing]

I suggested running MC as administrator only as a test.  In general you do not need to do this.  To run MC21 as administrator, right click MC21 desktop icon and select "Run as administrator".

You should check the security settings of the drive on which TV recordings are written.

[DocLotus]

Maybe this article/tutorial will help http://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/3587-owner-files-folders-change-windows-10-a.html

and http://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/2969-administrator-account-enable-disable-windows-10-a.html

Ah... THANKS.  I'll read it all.

[DocLotus]

I suggested running MC as administrator only as a test.  In general you do not need to do this.  To run MC21 as administrator, right click MC21 desktop icon and select "Run as administrator".

Yes, I've already done that this morning at around 6:30 AM with MC loaded but nothing playing. It is now 9:25 AM (almost 3 hours later) and still no file deletions. It may be a bit soon as EPG may have recently updated & 8 hours have not passed for the next cleanup.  I'll wait a while longer & see what happens.

[DocLotus]

Slightly Off Topic...

When you guys do a Quote in the Forum you get something like this...

Quote from: DocLotus on Yesterday at 06:52:31 pm
I've had no problems manually deleting files.

When I do a quote all I get is...

Quote
I suggested running MC as administrator only as a test.  In general you do not need to do this.  To run MC21 as administrator, right click MC21 desktop icon and select "Run as administrator".
 
How do I make my quotes include the person, date & time like yours does?

[JimH]

Click on the button that says "Quote" at the top right of your message, then edit out what you don't want.  Reply after the second quote tag.

[DocLotus]

Click on the button that says "Quote" at the top right of your message, then edit out what you don't want.  Reply after the second quote tag.

That's exactly what I do but mine never includes the person, date & time like yours does.

I usually copy & paste between the "

" but this time I'm trying a drag & drop method to see if it makes any difference.

Here goes.