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Author Topic: WMC and JRiver  (Read 12339 times)

JimH

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WMC and JRiver
« on: September 24, 2015, 06:17:57 pm »

We're seeing a lot of new people trying MC because Windows Media Center is no longer available in Windows 10.  I'm interested in how we're doing and what's missing in order to replace WMC with JRiver.

I know of two things:

1.  Ability to record and play copy-once programs.

2.  Reliable EPG.

We're working on #2 and we've reached out to Microsoft on #1 since it involves the Playready DRM.

Is there anything else that is essential?
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greynolds

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Re: WMC and JRiver
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2015, 07:55:01 pm »

We're seeing a lot of new people trying MC because Windows Media Center is no longer available in Windows 10.  I'm interested in how we're doing and what's missing in order to replace WMC with JRiver.

I know of two things:

1.  Ability to record and play copy-once programs.

2.  Reliable EPG.

We're working on #2 and we've reached out to Microsoft on #1 since it involves the Playready DRM.

Is there anything else that is essential?
Jim,

I don't believe Playready is absolutely required, it's just one of the options.  I believe SiliconDust is using a different option for their DVR software.  Not sure if the other option would be less expensive, but may be worth looking into.

#3 is that the recording rules need to be more powerful, as has been mentioned a number of times in other threads.  Things like the ability to record all games for a given sports team for the current season, which many of us have been unsuccessful in getting to work well.

For example, I want to be able to record the first showing only of all Boston Bruins Hockey games.  I don't want replays of recent games recorded, I don't want other shows that might be related to the Boston Bruins recorded, and I don't want old games that are replayed from time to time recorded.  Just the current games, regardless of what time they're on and what channel they're on.  For the Bruins, the bulk of the games will be on NESN (a regional sports network for New England), but some will be on NBCSN, NBC, or a few other channels during the course of the year.  Game times are most often 7:00PM or 7:30PM, but can also be at noon, 1PM, 5PM, 8PM, 10PM, etc. for matinees, west coast road games, and so on.  I should be able to cover this with 1 rule.  

With WMC this gets handled by a single keyword search within the Sports -> Hockey category with the keywords "NHL Hockey Boston Bruins At" which records anything with "NHL Hockey Boston Bruins at XXX" or "NHL Hockey XXX at Boston Bruins" in the title.  The other settings in the rule are HD channel preferred, new only, and padding of 30 minutes extra (I bump this up to a lot more padding in the post season, when they make it to the post season, to handle multiple overtimes).

There are a number of other threads on this topic that cover some other examples of recording rule functionality that's missing or not working in the way many of us would expect.  I believe one of those threads had been pinned at the top of this forum for a while, but doesn't seem to be anymore.

Though these changes aren't trivial to implement, I don't believe they're really all that difficult either.  This is coming from a software developer with 20+ years of experience in various languages and a few years of experience working on DVR software a while back (I took over development of the accessDTV software when they went belly-up), so I've got a decent amount of understanding how to work with guide data and so on.  I'd really love to see you guys spend some time on this recording engine work as a reasonable amount of effort would really pay off in a much more polished and usable product.
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DeaneG

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Re: WMC and JRiver
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2015, 09:09:51 pm »

We're seeing a lot of new people trying MC because Windows Media Center is no longer available in Windows 10.  I'm interested in how we're doing and what's missing in order to replace WMC with JRiver.

I have been working on exactly that transition for almost two months, mainly on two media center PCs which are used daily, mainly for watching recorded TV using a Harmony remote control. The PCs are pretty much just PVRs with the small one also being a home automation controller/security/music server, and big one also set up for watching blurays.

On MC21, EPG is working OK using SD as the data source. I went through the Microsoft EPG hiccup before switching to Win10/MC21 and thought I'd try a different source. Time to unhook from that train since it's not a support priority for MS.

The main problem I've had with transitioning to MC21 is actually with the remote control. Choosing "MCE remote" in MC21 only sort of works. In particular, the skip forward/back keys no longer work, I can't press OK to return to the last TV channel, and there is no direct way to jump between zoom presets. These are functions I use many times per day.

With several hours of effort (and I've been doing HW/SW development for more than 40 years), I've investigated enough to reprogram my Harmony remotes' keys to be sort of close to how they used to work in MCE. But "last channel" eludes me so far.

I do not want to use a smartphone app as a remote control, or a keyboard, as there are other AV devices involved in both systems and the Harmony should be capable of managing everything. It would be most helpful if either MC21 had a few tweaks for better compatibility with the MCE remote, or if Logitech's remote configuration software knew your remote control codes as it does for some other media center apps.

I also heavily edited the theater mode menu, mainly to cut it down to the functions I actually use, to add security camera shortcuts (great!) and also to rename "Video" to "TV" and "Shows" to "Recordings" so that my wife can navigate easier. A clean, modern looking skin would also help my wife feel that we are taking a step forward in moving to MC21 rather than back.
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RoderickGI

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Re: WMC and JRiver
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2015, 02:37:23 am »

I agree #3 would be recording features, part of which is the rules.

Reliable Series recording is a major issue. Without reliable EPG data, and rules to identify that a program belongs to a particular series, series recording is difficult.

Several PVR/DVR suppliers over the years have solved this problem by providing the EPG themselves, or forming a close relationship with the supplier, and implementing a "Series ID" for every series ever created. Zap2it, Rovi, (and by implication, Microsoft), IceTV, and I believe earlier software solutions used this method. TheTVDB does this, but it is maintained by volunteers (well, mostly it seems), and is usually updated after the fact, rather than before a program is shown, which is when recording rules need to select the program to be recorded.

I was looking at Rovi recently. The company, their vision, products, and geographic coverage. I can see why Microsoft shifted to them. Integrating with their product set would solve both the EPG issue, and possibly the recording rules, series recording, and add a discovery process for new media, suggestions and recommendations, and lots of additional information about the media. Not to mention that Rovi covers all media sources, including new streaming sources etc. They don't provide content, just information about the content. I would recommend that someone looks at what they do, and consider whether JRiver should become a partner. I believe that they provide their products to other companies, which then supply a service to end users. It may fit well with MC.

The alternative to implementing a Series ID that is available for query before a new series starts is to have much stronger recording rules, and maybe to use more sources to enhance what data is known about scheduled programs. Some of my quick thoughts;
1. A recording rule should have its own unique name defined by the user, which is not used as the search criteria for a program.
2. Any recording rule should actually be made up of one or more rules, where some rules may include a program for recording, but others may exclude it from being selected for recording. This is partly supported currently, with title matching as the primary selection criteria, but also repeat avoidance for both scheduled and already recorded programs, selection by channel, range of channels, or all channels, and selection by a range of time criteria. I think this needs to be extended in the area of the primary selection criteria. ie: One rule to select Hockey, one to include Boston Bruins, and one to exclude any location other than XXX.
3. It should be possible to create a rule with simple or complex rules. Ideally, I think there should be three levels: a) Simple word or part word match, on any EPG data field. b) Boolean matching, with AND, OR, NOR etc. operators, where a true result means the program is recorded. c) Regular Expressions (or similar) for complex disassembly of program Titles and Sub-titles, and possibly descriptions, categories, actors, years, etc., in fact all available EPG fields.
4. I think there needs to be some fuzzy logic around criteria matching, such as matching abbreviations, poor spelling, phonetic matching, different forms of names, and so on.
5. For all the above to work, the more accurate information about programs the better. The EPG used by MC needs to be improved after it is sourced, and before programs are selected for recording. Looking up TheTVDB after a program is recorded is too late. TheTVDB, and maybe the IMDB, themoviedb, and others, should be looked up to enhance the EPG, where there are gaps in major fields, such as categories, keywords, season and episode numbers.

Requirement #4 would be to improve the information available in the Guide through colour coding of program bars (Movie, Sports, Documentary, etc.), different coloured spots or icons on program bars (to be recorded, recording, will be recorded as part of the padding around another program, etc.), maybe a pop up details on a program when it is highlighted. Also channel logos in addition to or instead of the names. Probably lots of other things to turn the EPG data into information. Again, this largely depends on the quality and volume of EPG data, but there is also a lot of information that MC knows which could be communicated visually.

I am sure that there is much more that current WMC users could contribute. Overall, except for encrypted content, I think MC has the presentation of content that is on a users system covered. But the future is streaming, IRTV, and other sources, and that is where MC could go beyond WMC capabilities. I haven't looked at what the newer XBoxes are supposed to be capable of, but perhaps that is a yard stick to look at as well.

My observation of WMC users is that, like any population, some people want a one click setup and never to have to think, and other people want to fiddle and fine tune everything. I have noticed though that many users spend a lot of time and effort to get WMC to do what they wanted, and were willing to learn how to do that.

Sorry for the big block of text. Just another brain dump I'm afraid.  ;D
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What specific version of MC you are running:MC27.0.27 @ Oct 27, 2020 and updating regularly Jim!                        MC Release Notes: https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Release_Notes
What OS(s) and Version you are running:     Windows 10 Pro 64bit Version 2004 (OS Build 19041.572).
The JRMark score of the PC with an issue:    JRMark (version 26.0.52 64 bit): 3419
Important relevant info about your environment:     
  Using the HTPC as a MC Server & a Workstation as a MC Client plus some DLNA clients.
  Running JRiver for Android, JRemote2, Gizmo, & MO 4Media on a Sony Xperia XZ Premium Android 9.
  Playing video out to a Sony 65" TV connected via HDMI, playing digital audio out via motherboard sound card, PCIe TV tuner

RoderickGI

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Re: WMC and JRiver
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2015, 03:43:28 am »

BTW, this may be a source of ideas, and probably should be updated for JRiver.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_PVR_software_packages
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What specific version of MC you are running:MC27.0.27 @ Oct 27, 2020 and updating regularly Jim!                        MC Release Notes: https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Release_Notes
What OS(s) and Version you are running:     Windows 10 Pro 64bit Version 2004 (OS Build 19041.572).
The JRMark score of the PC with an issue:    JRMark (version 26.0.52 64 bit): 3419
Important relevant info about your environment:     
  Using the HTPC as a MC Server & a Workstation as a MC Client plus some DLNA clients.
  Running JRiver for Android, JRemote2, Gizmo, & MO 4Media on a Sony Xperia XZ Premium Android 9.
  Playing video out to a Sony 65" TV connected via HDMI, playing digital audio out via motherboard sound card, PCIe TV tuner

astromo

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Re: WMC and JRiver
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2015, 03:49:21 am »

#3 Recording Rules
Why not open things up so that the user can do an edit along the lines of how smart lists work?

There you've got a configuration interface as well as the option to code in expression language.

That way, a user could set up an array of default recording rules that could be used as a template for "next time". At the moment, the options are limited because the framework is a tad rigid.
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CountryBumkin

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Re: WMC and JRiver
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2015, 07:05:03 am »

BTW, this may be a source of ideas, and probably should be updated for JRiver.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_PVR_software_packages

Yes - JRiver is listed as having the latest stable version of 17.0.50 (anyone reading this might think JRiver has not updated the program since 2011).
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JimH

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Re: WMC and JRiver
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2015, 07:07:15 am »

You could change it.
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CountryBumkin

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Re: WMC and JRiver
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2015, 07:20:52 am »

Okay. Updated.
I suggest someone/everyone review the Wiki to be sure the most important attributes of MC are noted (in the limited space). I'm probably not the right person to come up with the "best description" of MC.

With the end of WMC, there will probably be a lot of people searching for a replacement program, so this Wiki site may be a useful place to keep updated.

There is a Wiki "JRiver" page too https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JRiver_Media_Center, but it's outdated - perhaps you should put together a team to update this.
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DeaneG

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Re: WMC and JRiver
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2015, 08:47:15 am »

One thing about WMC - while it could be tweaked using third party software and tricks, basic TV PVR functions worked smoothly and completely with very little setup. Including the remote control.
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RoderickGI

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Re: WMC and JRiver
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2015, 06:48:43 pm »

You could change it.

I thought about it, but like CountryBumkin, I didn't think I was the right person to do it. I don't actually know off the top of my head all the video formats that MC supports. I would have to put in time to confirm what is supported. Plus you probably have an idea how you want MC presented to the world.

I would be happy to fix these things as I find them, but I would have to start charging you an hourly rate.  :)
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What specific version of MC you are running:MC27.0.27 @ Oct 27, 2020 and updating regularly Jim!                        MC Release Notes: https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Release_Notes
What OS(s) and Version you are running:     Windows 10 Pro 64bit Version 2004 (OS Build 19041.572).
The JRMark score of the PC with an issue:    JRMark (version 26.0.52 64 bit): 3419
Important relevant info about your environment:     
  Using the HTPC as a MC Server & a Workstation as a MC Client plus some DLNA clients.
  Running JRiver for Android, JRemote2, Gizmo, & MO 4Media on a Sony Xperia XZ Premium Android 9.
  Playing video out to a Sony 65" TV connected via HDMI, playing digital audio out via motherboard sound card, PCIe TV tuner

JimH

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Re: WMC and JRiver
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2015, 06:50:53 pm »

Wikipedia is done by users.  I've never posted much there.
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DeaneG

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Re: WMC and JRiver
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2015, 10:28:23 am »

JimH, my 2 cents on a "minor" issue that cost me several hours: while the stock MCE remote works well with JRiver MC, the key usage is somewhat different. There is no need to modify the MCE remote's or MC21's programming, but this isn't apparent without some additional knowledge.

I think it would be very helpful if there was a brief bit of documentation explaining what key does which function on the user's selected remote in JRiver Tools->Options->Remote Control. A similar but augmented list in the wiki would go a long way too.

This remote key function difference led me to spend several hours to figure out how to implement the last-channel function and map keys to suit, in an effort to increase MC21's WAF, when I didn't need to.  If maybe fifteen text bullets in the UI had explained JR's use of the MCE remote keys during my selection of the MCE remote choice in JRiver, it would have saved me a lot of time and also avoided some unpleasant feelings regarding my choice of software.

Trying to help, you guys have a very nice product that just needs a little polish to smooth the initial experience for newbies migrating from MCE.

Sorry for the partial cross-post but I thought this would be an easy documentation/UI fix that would save many others some time and unpleasantness.
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codpiece

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Re: WMC and JRiver
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2015, 11:58:01 am »

To me, #1 is absolutely essential.

The rest is mostly cosmetic and minor tweaks.  I like very much how MC handles TV.
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greynolds

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Re: WMC and JRiver
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2015, 01:10:29 pm »

To me, #1 is absolutely essential.
#1 is essential because it's obviously a showstopper for those with cable companies that mark everything as copy once or for those who subscribe to channels like HBO that are always marked as copy once.

The rest is mostly cosmetic and minor tweaks.  I like very much how MC handles TV.
The rest is a lot more than just cosmetic and minor tweaks, IMHO.  The recording rule functionality (#3) is just as (or nearly as) essential as #1 because a DVR is only really useful if you can get it to record what you want recorded without a ton of ongoing manual intervention, which MC currently requires.  And reliable EPG data (#2) is essential to be able to do #3 well.  I don't believe it would take a ton of effort for them to get from where they are now to the point where this goal is met.  But #1 is clearly the biggest effort in terms of cost and time.

They spent a bunch of time during development of version 20 making initial TV setup easier.  While that's certainly useful, I really wish they had put some effort into the recording rules work.  Initial TV setup is pretty much a 1 time task, while setting up recordings for new shows that come along is more of an ongoing task.  I'd rather have the ongoing task improved as it's something I'm going to have to deal with over and over again.  If the initial setup is a bit kludgy, it's not such a big deal as I only have to deal with it once.
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Daveyravey

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Re: WMC and JRiver
« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2015, 11:23:54 am »

A few things i wish MC could do right now.

Feature                                                                                        Comments
1-Guide Data Taken from Live Feed both Satellite & Cable --------------- WMC takes live feed of channel data for all areas
2-Guide Data Logos ----------------------------------------------- -----------WMC allows guide logos in the channel guide
3-Set up from Remote for TV Tuner Features-------------------------------Channel Scanning , ordering etc can all be done on 10 ft UI in WMC using remote
4-Merging of DVB-T & DVB-S channels--------------------------------------WMC can do this from Remote in 10 ft UI Mc is quite laborious to do in standard view
5-Pressing Guide takes you to channel being viewed-----------------------MC defaults to channel 1 WMC does not do this
6-Start shutdown easliy accesable from remote----------------------------WMC can do this with one click MC takes an age scrolling through to select sleep, standby, restart etc
7-Guide data update and replace new channels automatically-------------WMC would periodically check TV channels for updates and update database this is a laborious manual task in MC
Detection of non transmitting channels--------------------------------------MC does not add non transmitting channels to the channel list when doing a scan for example BBC Three in UK transmits from 6pm if scan is ran -             ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------earlier MC does not see the channel. WMC does not have this problem
8-Missing Guide data is not dealt with correctly----------------------------If WMC does not get any guide data for a particular channel it still allows the guide entry so you can see the channel in the guide. It displays no -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------guide data in guide view
9-Red button suport in the Uk------------------------------------------------WMC supports red button useful in the Uk for news, weather etc
10-Library Refresh--------------------------------------------------------------Add a button in Theaterview to refresh the library. Many times i have added media and it does not show up until i exit out of theaterview and -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------manually refresh the library
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Daniel Warner

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Re: WMC and JRiver
« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2015, 09:50:40 am »

...
3-Set up from Remote for TV Tuner Features-------------------------------Channel Scanning , ordering etc can all be done on 10 ft UI in WMC using remote
4-Merging of DVB-T & DVB-S channels--------------------------------------WMC can do this from Remote in 10 ft UI Mc is quite laborious to do in standard view
...
6-Start shutdown easliy accesable from remote----------------------------WMC can do this with one click MC takes an age scrolling through to select sleep, standby, restart etc
7-Guide data update and replace new channels automatically-------------WMC would periodically check TV channels for updates and update database this is a laborious manual task in MC
...
10-Library Refresh--------------------------------------------------------------Add a button in Theaterview to refresh the library. Many times i have added media and it does not show up until i exit out of theaterview and manually refresh the library
+1 for these. They basically all relate to being able to perform more tasks from within Theatre view.  I hate having to dig out a mouse and keyboard on my HTPC - I want it to work like any media device and use the remote for most tasks.  I know I will need the mouse/keyboard occasionally, but anything to avoid it is better.


Quote
Detection of non transmitting channels--------------------------------------MC does not add non transmitting channels to the channel list when doing a scan for example BBC Three in UK transmits from 6pm if scan is ran -             ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------earlier MC does not see the channel. WMC does not have this problem
8-Missing Guide data is not dealt with correctly----------------------------If WMC does not get any guide data for a particular channel it still allows the guide entry so you can see the channel in the guide. It displays no -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------guide data in guide view
9-Red button suport in the Uk------------------------------------------------WMC supports red button useful in the Uk for news, weather etc

If these can get implemented, it would be great.  MC is SO close to being a full WMC replacement but just needs a little more work.  Thanks for what you are doing tho...
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Daveyravey

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Re: WMC and JRiver
« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2015, 02:53:33 pm »

I believe Yaobing is working on some of these issues. Some may not get done as I don't think there is a massive uk base for JRiver . I think windows media centre had more resources to develop things for Uk market such as red button support
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Daveyravey

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Re: WMC and JRiver
« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2015, 01:03:00 am »

bump
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JimH

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Re: WMC and JRiver
« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2015, 02:19:49 pm »

...  I'm interested in how we're doing and what's missing in order to replace WMC with JRiver.

I know of two things:

1.  Ability to record and play copy-once programs.

2.  Reliable EPG.
Based on the comments above, I am adding:

3.  More flexible recording rules.

4.  Better metadata.

5.  Other more minor compatibility issues such as the remote control button functions.

Is there anything else that is _major_?
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CountryBumkin

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Re: WMC and JRiver
« Reply #20 on: October 15, 2015, 02:55:24 pm »

- supporting "encrypted copy-once content" seems to be the big concern to WMC users over at AVS forums.

Other than that, (and "major" is a relative term), supporting channel-station icons and allowing coloring of the guide back ground based on content (such as showing the background of the timeslot for Sports in one color, and a different color if it is a Movie, etc.).

For me, I want Season Number and Episode Numbers for each TV Series so I can use "Get Movie and TV Info" lookup tool and have all my shows grouped properly. Fortunately there is a way to get this data via third-party software (XMLTVDB) but it would be great if MC could get it directly.
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0bw4n

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Re: WMC and JRiver
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2015, 11:15:57 am »

I'm one of those "people" trying out jriver due to MCE dropping in W10. I'm also a backer of the SiliconDust DVR kickstarter and will likely be backer of this one as well.

One feature would be a user friendly guide for newbies coming from MCE. This seems to have a lot of bells and whistles, and I'm not sure I want/need all of them, so a guide that clearly defines how to set this up to have an experience near that of MCE would be wonderful!

As for MCE comparison -
  • The setup for JRiver MC is a little, um... scary. That is to say, I'm not a huge fan of having to drop to another interface to setup TV signal. I fully understand why I have to - as this appears to be a VERY capable app. However 1st time setup was a bit daunting, especially for cable card setup. Perhaps an option for lite/basic usage, then the ability to drop down to a more advanced level (similar to settings in Kodi). The last thing I need is my wife/kid/roommate/<insert other non-technical person here> pressing the wrong button and exiting the theater interface.
  • Extenders - MCE has the ability to use extenders, so we have a native interface across multiple devices/rooms. It doesn't have to be hardware based, a soft client would be perfectly acceptable. - this should include the ability to view live tv across the extender. There appears to be a client mode option, perhaps this is what I'm referring to?
  • Perhaps break this down into two apps - a client and server. This would solve issue 2 and perhaps help with issue 1
  • This one may have already been addressed - tighter integration with netflix and amazon. I've seen that we can access amazon, but a remote friendly option for both would be great (apologies if this is already the case. I'm still learning this application)
  • Remote buttons (I've seen this mentioned multiple times in the forums) - I'm not saying the way MCE handles the remote is the best, but it is what I'm used to as well as my wife, and the WAF (Wife Approval Factor) is extremely important for anything to be used as a replacement for MCE
As for HDHomeRun comparison -
*note - while I am a backer, I do not have early access. My opinions below are based solely on the forums and the video demos/screen grabs of the product.
  • Grid Guide - keep doing what you're doing. This seems to be one thing that Silicon Dust may be doing wrong
  • native apps for windows and android tv - these act as extenders.
  • ability to run the backend on a less powerful device, such as an always on NAS

As mentioned in your pre-kickstarter forum, DRM channels (copy once) is a HUGE issue for me. It's the primary reason I'm holding on to MCE.
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JimH

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Re: WMC and JRiver
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2015, 02:21:15 pm »

Welcome to the forum.

MC can act as both a client and a server.  You could read more on the wiki in the topic called "Media Network".

You can use MC on one machine to watch TV from another machine.

On Android, you can use Gizmo and JRemote to play video from an MC server.

We used to support Netflix in MC, but they ended the support of their API.
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Gustovier

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Re: WMC and JRiver
« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2015, 06:28:12 pm »

With Netflix ending their support having an android tv or iOS/tvOS client is going to become more important once you get everything going with copy once support. That way folks can use the native apps of Netflix / Hulu / HBO go / etc. all one device /input and we would have reached the holy grail.   Then for true nirvana one of these platforms can hopefully get their universal search open to all apps and life will be complete (for a moment)
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