Topic: Tweaking MadVR (video almost perfect) (Read 32762 times)

bhampster · « **on:** September 28, 2015, 08:16:44 am »

Hi,

Today I'm spending time investigating my video performance and reading many pages online for tuning Madvr.

I must say that my video playback is almost perfect but I feel I'm close to problems and that's why I'm tuning.

I use Red October HQ and within MadVR I use a 3DLUT calibration file (I mention this because it can be taxing.)

The PC is off the shelf Dell tower basically i5 quad core 3.4Gz 12GB Ram added Nvidia 750GT with 2GB

When I start a movie I get several dropped frames and a presentation glitch or 2 but then it's remarkably stable.

I have many places to tune... I can turn on/off video clock... that doesn't seem to help.

My clock deviation is 0.0059% ... is this good?... I can force the display and output to 24Fps exactly but that doesn't seem like a good plan.

Basically I wish I could find a good page talking about dropped, repeated frames and good present redering numbers... I can adjust many things but I don't know the best way to read or judge these stats.

-Brian

Edit - Starting a movie results in problems as exclusive mode is engaged... this results in about 11 dropped frames and 2 presentation glitches.(I'm ok with all that as it's in the first second or 2 of playback and not noticed).. After that those numbers remain stable ... Doing lots more testing and logging to try to sort this all out.

Edit 2 - Maybe I don't really have an issue here... after the dropped frames relating to engaging exclusive mode I don't seem to drop or repeat anymore. I guess it's not having trouble...

CountryBumkin · « **Reply #1 on:** September 28, 2015, 09:08:59 am »

There are always dropped frames when madVR starts. Use the refresh key (Ctrl+J, I think) and then start monitoring the madVR stats.

There is a madVR guide at the top of this forum section.

JimH · « **Reply #2 on:** September 28, 2015, 09:37:22 am »

Advice for tweaking madVR could be found on the doom9 forum. It's not something that we recommend doing and should probably only be attempted by advanced users.

If you want madVR to be used, we would recommend just choosing MC's Red October HQ setting.

bhampster · « **Reply #3 on:** September 28, 2015, 10:41:13 am »

Thank you.

I suppose maybe I'm an advanced user.

I use DisplayCal GUI to make a 3DLUT to correct my projector output. This is the main reason I rely on MadVR.

I had the CNTL - J stats up and didn't see dropped or repeated frames or presentation glitches after the movie had engaged exclusive mode.

So.... My conclusion is that my system is working very well and I won't be tuning or tweaking ... unless I am reminded otherwise.

For the most part ... JRiver comes working nearly ideally out of the box so to speak. The ability for me to use 3DLUT is however one main reason I use it.

My projector doesn't have perfect output ... but can be made very accurate with 3DLUT usage.

TLDR version - I was trying to fix something that wasn't broken.

mojave · « **Reply #4 on:** September 28, 2015, 11:07:35 am »

Do you ever playback any interlaced content like Blu-ray concerts?

I use 3D LUT's and haven't noticed much of any performance hit.

JRiver settings:
1. I usually use Hardware accelerate video decoding when possible
2. Always use VideoClock - see wiki
3. Video > Display Settings: If your display, like a projector, can handle multiple frame rates (23.976, 24, 29.97, 59.94, 60 Hz) then you have two choices. First you can set Display Settings Automatic Change Mode to On. This will send each video to the display at its native frame rate. Second, you can set it to off and set your desktop display to 60 Hz or whatever the highest frequency is. When used with Smooth Motion in madVR it can look better - especially with fast motion scenes.

madVR settings:
Your first goal should be to never have any dropped frames. I just checked a bunch of movies and I get 0 dropped or delayed frames, even at startup with about 80% of what I checked. The others had from 1-12 dropped frames. I also found it is consistent for each movie. For example, every time I start Fury there are 11 frames dropped, but there are always zero frames dropped with American Sniper.

Start with Rendering
General Settings
1. Enable windowed overlay (Windows 7 and newer) and use it instead of fullscreen exclusive mode. You will have a much better interaction with the menu with no downsides.
2. Check delay playback until render queue queue is full and after seeking
3. Check disable decktop composition.
4. Check/uncheck use a separate device . . . and see if you get any difference in rendering or present stats. I leave them checked, but don't see much/any difference either way.

windowed mode settings
1. Check present several frames in advance
2. Adjust how many frames shall be presented in advance. This is what really helps eliminate dropped frames at the start of playback. I set to 12 because going higher doesn't seem to make any difference.

smooth motion
I enable this and check "only if there would be motion judder without it . . ." This will have a performance hit, though, if you are using 24p content on a 60 Hz display. Keep this in mind, but try to eliminate dropped frames with other settings and leave this checked.

dithering
Choosing between Ordered Dithering or one of the Error Diffusion methods makes a big difference in performance. Start with Ordered Dithering, set scaling algorithms where you want, and then see if you can go to Error Diffusion without dropping any frames.

trade quality for performance
Some of these are checked by default. I would just leave them checked.

Now you can work on testing various scaling algorithms. I think you should be able to use Jinc 3 taps with activate anti-ringing filter without dropping frames with your graphics card. If not, then try SoftCubic with softness at 50-70 and activate anti-ringing filter. When JRiver upgrades to the latest madVR, you might be able to use Super-XBR.

You can try turning on processing > artifact removal > reduce banding artifacts, but it may also make a performance hit.

MGD_King · « **Reply #5 on:** September 28, 2015, 12:38:26 pm »

Quote from: bhampster on September 28, 2015, 08:16:44 am

When I start a movie I get several dropped frames and a presentation glitch or 2 but then it's remarkably stable.

I had this same problem until I upgraded my hard drive from a Western Digital Green 2TB drive to a WD Black 4TB drive. I think it was due to the 2TB drive shutting down (stopped spinning) when not in use. I don't have that problem with the Black drive.

bhampster · « **Reply #6 on:** September 28, 2015, 12:48:20 pm »

Thank you both.

I will work through the very detailed info mojave gave... I had already been flipping some of those switches but he presents most of what I was trying to learn very well.

For example... I experimented with Video change mode On and Off and setting responses... I find my PJ automatically sync pretty well.

mojave's post about detailed MadVR settings is appriciated and detailed and I will work through it.

As for the idea of hard drive choice.... that is also something I was interested in looking at. This AM I was playing back a movie from one of my NAS units but I meant to compare that to movies played back from my internal drives because I have 2 of those. (System is on a separate SSD).

Of course... dropping a couple of frames while the video starts and engages exclusive mode is not a problem... I was relieved when I watched a movie while leaving the performance data on that I wasn't dropping more frames after getting into exclusive mode.

So,... thanks again.... I love to learn.

-Brian

mojave · « **Reply #7 on:** September 28, 2015, 01:02:05 pm »

Quote from: MGD_King on September 28, 2015, 12:38:26 pm

I had this same problem until I upgraded my hard drive from a Western Digital Green 2TB drive to a WD Black 4TB drive. I think it was due to the 2TB drive shutting down (stopped spinning) when not in use. I don't have that problem with the Black drive.

Thanks for bringing this up. I found that the ones dropping frames at the beginning were on an older internal hard drive and the ones not dropping frames are on an external WD 3TB drive.

bhampster · « **Reply #8 on:** September 28, 2015, 01:16:05 pm »

worked through a bunch of these tips and they helped.

Mainly I guess because all my dropped and repeated frames came from going in and out of exclusive mode.

Much smoother to stay out of exclusive mode.

I have no idea what super xbr chroma upsampling is but I have no dropped frames with it ...

(I have to always use the latest MadVR)

Thanks again for the tips... making a great thing better is a wonderful feeling.

-Brian

thorsten · « **Reply #9 on:** September 28, 2015, 04:11:26 pm »

Mojave, thanks, too!
This is a perfect updated short description of madvr.
I love this program and the superb support you all provide in the forum

bhampster · « **Reply #10 on:** November 11, 2015, 07:39:37 am »

edited out.

(was a post suggesting turning off Hardware acceleration was helpful... But now I have a different GPU and I use hardware accel.)

maid · « **Reply #11 on:** December 01, 2017, 07:53:50 pm »

Thanks mojave
I have been looking for theses forever.
Now that I have used your settings no more twitchy movies cheers

Patu · « **Reply #12 on:** January 01, 2018, 02:17:19 pm »

This thread hits so close with my problem that I might as well post my question here.

I get dropped frames during 1080p (scaled to 4k) playback with JRiver on Red October HQ. I have quite a powerful machine running it with AMD FX6300 + 1050Ti gpu + 16gb RAM with Win10 and latest updates. It's connected to LG 55" 4k OLED with high quality HDMi cable. It drops frames like every 1-2 minutes and you can naturally clearly see it during playback. I get no dropped frames even with higher quality settings while using MPC-HC + MadVR as a player. I think I've tried with every single option and configuration on JRiver + MadVR and no matter what, I always get dropped frames. I followed my cpu usage during playback and while I get the framedrop, the cpu usage spikes little every time (Media Center 23.exe does this). Overall the cpu usage stays around 8-15% so it's still very low, but always a small spike while framedrop. This spiking does not happen with MPC-HC. What's also weird is that with Red October Standard I get much worse performance. The video stutters A LOT, totally unwatchable. I have to use the ROHQ setting with MadVR.

Now I've tried with all the settings suggested in this thread and tweaked JRiver and MadVR for days and I haven't found a combination which makes it work smoothly. I've read through the MadVR tutorials and JRiver tutorials but no help. I have this idea that it could be something Audio related since what else is there different between JRiver and MPC-HC? Both use MadVR for video with same settings. JRiver's hardware acceleration and VideoClock don't help either. Also no help to turn on the automatic display mode switching. I would love to keep on using JRiver since the audio sounds much better on it compared to MPC-HC. Must be the JRSS mixing?

I've tweaked the audio settings also in every possible way but no. I've re-installed Nvidia drivers but no help. I've re-installed JRiver as 32bit and 64bit but no difference there either. I'm running out of options. Any ideas? Regular audio playback works without drops or stuttering.

JimH · « **Reply #13 on:** January 01, 2018, 02:42:21 pm »

The CPU spike could be related to antivirus.

Patu · « **Reply #14 on:** January 01, 2018, 03:18:08 pm »

Quote from: JimH on January 01, 2018, 02:42:21 pm

The CPU spike could be related to antivirus.

I use Windows 10's integrated virus protection. Also it causes no problems with MPC-HC.

EDIT:

I seem to get pretty much drop free playback with automatic display mode switching + videoclock both on. But 24hz picture just doesn't seem right to my eyes. Would definitely prefer to keep TV at 60hz.

JimH · « **Reply #15 on:** January 01, 2018, 03:19:12 pm »

Quote from: Patu on January 01, 2018, 03:18:08 pm

I use Windows 10's integrated virus protection. Also it causes no problems with MPC-HC.

Still possible.

Patu · « **Reply #16 on:** January 01, 2018, 03:20:53 pm »

Quote from: JimH on January 01, 2018, 03:19:12 pm

Still possible.

I disabled the antivirus completely and still framedrops, quick test.

JimH · « **Reply #17 on:** January 01, 2018, 03:40:42 pm »

So what is causing the spike?

Awesome Donkey · « **Reply #18 on:** January 01, 2018, 04:01:21 pm »

High DPC latency, perhaps?

stewart_pk · « **Reply #19 on:** January 01, 2018, 06:44:27 pm »

Quote from: Patu on January 01, 2018, 02:17:19 pm

This thread hits so close with my problem that I might as well post my question here.

I get dropped frames during 1080p (scaled to 4k) playback with JRiver on Red October HQ. I have quite a powerful machine running it with AMD FX6300 + 1050Ti gpu + 16gb RAM with Win10 and latest updates. It's connected to LG 55" 4k OLED with high quality HDMi cable. It drops frames like every 1-2 minutes and you can naturally clearly see it during playback. I get no dropped frames even with higher quality settings while using MPC-HC + MadVR as a player. I think I've tried with every single option and configuration on JRiver + MadVR and no matter what, I always get dropped frames. I followed my cpu usage during playback and while I get the framedrop, the cpu usage spikes little every time (Media Center 23.exe does this). Overall the cpu usage stays around 8-15% so it's still very low, but always a small spike while framedrop. This spiking does not happen with MPC-HC. What's also weird is that with Red October Standard I get much worse performance. The video stutters A LOT, totally unwatchable. I have to use the ROHQ setting with MadVR.

Now I've tried with all the settings suggested in this thread and tweaked JRiver and MadVR for days and I haven't found a combination which makes it work smoothly. I've read through the MadVR tutorials and JRiver tutorials but no help. I have this idea that it could be something Audio related since what else is there different between JRiver and MPC-HC? Both use MadVR for video with same settings. JRiver's hardware acceleration and VideoClock don't help either. Also no help to turn on the automatic display mode switching. I would love to keep on using JRiver since the audio sounds much better on it compared to MPC-HC. Must be the JRSS mixing?

I've tweaked the audio settings also in every possible way but no. I've re-installed Nvidia drivers but no help. I've re-installed JRiver as 32bit and 64bit but no difference there either. I'm running out of options. Any ideas? Regular audio playback works without drops or stuttering.

Automatic display switching setting in JRiver is irrelevant to MadVR from memory; something I wish was more clearly explained/implemented.
You need to get MadVR to do auto switching with the appropriate settings; this may or may not help the problem but auto switching is a must for the highest quality playback.

I think the CPU spike might be unrelated to your issue. MadVR relies on your GPU considerably more than your CPU I believe, this is by design.
Microsoft has added a handy GPU usage meter in the Task Manager of Windows 10.

Patu · « **Reply #20 on:** January 02, 2018, 01:03:46 am »

Thanks for all the replies guys.

Quote from: JimH on January 01, 2018, 03:40:42 pm

So what is causing the spike?

It's MC which spikes, Media Center 23.exe. MPC-HC doesn't cause any spikes. Something related to audio maybe? Though plain audio playback works just fine on MC. I use USB bridge between my PC and DAC (TeddyPardo U2S). First I thought it was the memory playback feature on JRCM, which I had originally turned on, and it helped a little when I disabled it but I still get dropped frames and spiking.

Quote from: Awesome Donkey on January 01, 2018, 04:01:21 pm

High DPC latency, perhaps?

This might have something to do with it since I have had some DPC latency issues in history. Haven't checked the latencies lately. But once again I don't understand why it's only MC which suffers. MPC-HC plays video just fine and for Audio I use Roon nowadays and no problems with that one either.

Quote from: stewart_pk on January 01, 2018, 06:44:27 pm

Automatic display switching setting in JRiver is irrelevant to MadVR from memory; something I wish was more clearly explained/implemented.
You need to get MadVR to do auto switching with the appropriate settings; this may or may not help the problem but auto switching is a must for the highest quality playback.

I think the CPU spike might be unrelated to your issue. MadVR relies on your GPU considerably more than your CPU I believe, this is by design.
Microsoft has added a handy GPU usage meter in the Task Manager of Windows 10.

Yeah I know I can do the automatic switching either by MC or MadVR. Both seem to work just fine. Automatic switching seems to do the trick and I don't get dropped frames on MC either. But once again, sorry for repeating myself, MPC-HC works smoothly (no dropped frames) with 60hz display and 24p movie.

This problem is not about MadVR, since it works perfectly smooth with MPC-HC. It has something to do with MC.

CPU spike most probably has everything to do with this since when the spike occurs, I lose frames. What I'm trying to find out is the reason for the spiking. I follow the performance with Process Explorer which is more advanced monitor than the basic task manager. GPU usage is steady while playing a movie, it's high but steady. No spiking on GPU.

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/downloads/process-explorer

It feels like MC is more sensitive to... something. But what?

While googling the problem yesterday evening, I found this post: https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=173571

I checked my system timer settings, just in case, and noticed that HPET was disabled in BIOS. Not sure if it should have any effect on Windows 10 but I turned it on. Now in the morning I tested with 1080p material and no dropped frames, at least for the ~10 minutes I've played it now.

Hendrik · « **Reply #21 on:** January 02, 2018, 03:49:48 am »

Quote from: stewart_pk on January 01, 2018, 06:44:27 pm

Automatic display switching setting in JRiver is irrelevant to MadVR from memory; something I wish was more clearly explained/implemented.

Thats wrong. MCs auto switching works perfectly fine with madVR (and in some cases even has advantages, as you can configure a wait to give your screen time to sync to the new rate).

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Author Topic: Tweaking MadVR (video almost perfect) (Read 32762 times)