Topic: The sound since Win 10/MC 21 has improved - or... (Read 8988 times)

Humbledore · « **on:** October 03, 2015, 11:59:50 am »

Hi,
since my upgrade to MC 21 and Win 10 (same PC though) I can hear a distinct improvement in sound quality. The music appear to have more details, the bass feels punchier, and there is a higher level of separation. Do I imagine this change or has the upgrades brought something that makes audio listening funnier...?

Thanks!

dgm1960 · « **Reply #1 on:** October 03, 2015, 01:40:20 pm »

I noticed the same thing, but had not seen any other comments posted on this. The sound quality seems greatly improved.

AndrewFG · « **Reply #2 on:** October 03, 2015, 05:47:23 pm »

I suppose Win 10 may have changed audio drivers and audio paths versus prior Windows versions. But I don't think anything particular was changed in MC.

theoctavist · « **Reply #3 on:** October 03, 2015, 09:57:33 pm »

No. Impossible. Digital audio does not work that way. It has sounded the same for years.

Humbledore · « **Reply #4 on:** October 04, 2015, 03:50:01 am »

Something has changed, that's for sure... Anyway, I'm happy as long as it is for the better!

Manfred · « **Reply #5 on:** October 04, 2015, 04:41:06 am »

In Win 10 therer are audio latency changes. So if your driver uses WASAPI and uses some of the new functionality sound should be different.

https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/hardware/mt298187(v=vs.85).aspx

Best regrads Manfred

DocLotus · « **Reply #6 on:** October 04, 2015, 06:09:22 am »

Quote from: Manfred on October 04, 2015, 04:41:06 am

In Win 10 therer are audio latency changes. So if your driver uses WASAPI and uses some of the new functionality sound should be different.

https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/hardware/mt298187(v=vs.85).aspx

Best regrads Manfred

Thanks, Manfred.

Interesting read. That one article AND this thread has finally convinced me to upgrade from Win 8.1 to Win 10.

Doc

Artmon · « **Reply #7 on:** October 04, 2015, 07:06:15 am »

Is Wasapi recommanded in Win 10 ?

DocLotus · « **Reply #8 on:** October 04, 2015, 09:08:20 am »

Quote from: Artmon on October 04, 2015, 07:06:15 am

Is Wasapi recommanded in Win 10 ?

According to the article, it too (along with many other audio items) has been improved.
https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/hardware/mt298187(v=vs.85).aspx

blgentry · « **Reply #9 on:** October 04, 2015, 09:40:53 am »

Quote from: Manfred on October 04, 2015, 04:41:06 am

In Win 10 therer are audio latency changes. So if your driver uses WASAPI and uses some of the new functionality sound should be different.

https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/hardware/mt298187(v=vs.85).aspx

Correct me if I'm wrong. Latency refers to a time delay between the music being played and the music being heard. It's not something associated with sound QUALITY. It's just delay.

So these latency improvements might be good for some applications (gaming, etc), but they should not affect sound quality in the slightest. As far as I understand it.

Brian.

DocLotus · « **Reply #10 on:** October 04, 2015, 10:46:48 am »

Quote from: blgentry on October 04, 2015, 09:40:53 am

Correct me if I'm wrong. Latency refers to a time delay between the music being played and the music being heard. It's not something associated with sound QUALITY. It's just delay.

So these latency improvements might be good for some applications (gaming, etc), but they should not affect sound quality in the slightest. As far as I understand it.

Brian.

That's what my first thoughts were also... until I read the article. There is a LOT more to it then just latency alone. So... read the article, it may answer your questions.

Either way, anything that can possibly improve the already great sound of MC is worth a try in my book.

GaryM · « **Reply #11 on:** October 04, 2015, 09:34:08 pm »

Quote from: theoctavist on October 03, 2015, 09:57:33 pm

No. Impossible. Digital audio does not work that way. It has sounded the same for years.

'course it has.

kstuart · « **Reply #12 on:** October 06, 2015, 04:28:33 pm »

Things like latency affect real-time use of a PC.

Back in the 20th Century, almost all uses of computers were to complete a task. For example, computing a flight path for a rocket, and its length of burn time to reach orbit.

However, real-time playback uses a PC for something it was never designed to do - be used in real-time.

As a result, two factors come into play which are not involved when doing computing tasks:

1) Timing - since the playback is in real-tine, then delays and latency can affect the playback.

2) Electrical design - since the playback is in real-time, then electrical design issues like ground-plane noise, can become a factor.

This is why you find that people involved in creating audio compression software - which does not work in real-time - are the ones who have difficulty understanding that concepts like "bit perfect" do not apply, because the task is not creating a file.

See:

http://www.audiostream.com/content/qa-john-swenson-part-1-what-digital

http://www.audiostream.com/content/qa-john-swenson-part-2-are-bits-just-bits

millst · « **Reply #13 on:** October 06, 2015, 11:50:12 pm »

It's more likely that it sounds the same. You're probably just experiencing expectation bias and/or post-purchase rationalization. If your PC was configured to output bitperfect under MC20/Win8 before and is the same now on MC21/Win10, the quality will be the same. The chances of the sound being adversely affected by a different driver or bit of software are pretty low (assuming all is configured properly).

There's been nothing in the MC21 change log regarding improved sound quality other than the new dithering option, which is disabled by default. The audibility of that is even questionable.

I don't see anything in the MS article regarding quality, only latency (the FAQ even mentions how lowering latency could lower quality). Reducing latency will not have any impact on how things sound. It will only reduce the amount of time between the data being sent and the sound being heard. Nothing to get excited about there for playback.

-tm

Blaine78 · « **Reply #14 on:** October 07, 2015, 02:41:00 am »

Agree, Windows 10, using USB audio, the sound has definitely improved compared to windows 8. I'm still using JR V19 with APE lossless. v19 better to my ears than v20 and v21 at same settings regards definition, depth and spacial cues. it's subtle.

JimH · « **Reply #15 on:** October 07, 2015, 06:27:52 am »

Double check your settings.

Blaine78 · « **Reply #16 on:** October 07, 2015, 07:02:30 am »

Quote from: JimH on October 07, 2015, 06:27:52 am

Double check your settings.

Hi Jim, Thanks for the prompt reply.
Library and settings are backed up from V19 imported to V21. All setting identical. Played with JRiver's default dither on both versions and new TPDF on V21. I have both installed, swapping between them I can pick it out, it's subtle.

JimH · « **Reply #17 on:** October 07, 2015, 07:06:17 am »

It's probably volume, related to the switch to R128. Volume levels are slightly different.

kstuart · « **Reply #18 on:** October 07, 2015, 11:43:45 am »

Blaine - what about Memory Playback settings between 19, 20 and 21 ?

kstuart · « **Reply #19 on:** October 07, 2015, 11:48:03 am »

Quote from: millst on October 06, 2015, 11:50:12 pm

It's more likely that it sounds the same. You're probably just experiencing expectation bias and/or post-purchase rationalization. If your PC was configured to output bitperfect under MC20/Win8 before and is the same now on MC21/Win10, the quality will be the same.

The John Swenson articles linked above explain why two bitperfect setups can sound different.

Also, many people can "hear" non-existent differences due to bias, while other people are actually hearing real subtle differences. The former does not mean the latter never happens.

millst · « **Reply #20 on:** October 07, 2015, 12:49:53 pm »

Jitter, please?! That's not what we are talking about at all. The OP said "The music appear to have more details, the bass feels punchier, and there is a higher level of separation." There is nothing subtle about that.

-tm

JimH · « **Reply #21 on:** October 07, 2015, 01:35:06 pm »

In the interest of World Peace, I'm going to close this now.

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Author Topic: The sound since Win 10/MC 21 has improved - or... (Read 8988 times)