Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[marsupial]

Okay so here is the problem which I can't solve, so I am coming here for assistance.

I have two computer setups - one in my laboratory, and one in my office.  The lab computer uses a headphones setup for audio, the office uses loudspeakers, but both interact with JRiver through DSD dacs (marantz, mytek).  Both have licensed JRiver version 21 installed on them.

I have a wireless 802.11ac router, into which an external hard drive holds my entire ~2TB music collection.

I don't use any kind of like DLNA, media server type stuff.  I have the network set up so that both of my computers see the networked external drive as a regular drive that is freely accessible.  

BOTH computer jriver libraries are at the moment independent - that is, I don't have to have one computer on to use the other.  Basically, I've just "imported" the entire music folder to JRiver on each computer separately.

HERE IS PROBLEM:

On many albums (mostly dj mix albums containing multiple artists), if I alter the tagging information on ONE computer to behave a certain way (sort by album artist instead of "Multiple artists" etc), on the OTHER computer these changes are not reflected at all.  So yesterday I exhaustively spent 3 hours on my laboratory computer making everything correct, only to find out that my office computer is still a gigantic mess (this is after adding ~100 albums in one day).  

Is there a way to "SYNC" the libraries??  I looked at the library sync function in the jriver program, but it's DEFINITELY not what I'm talking about (involves copying files over to the local machine).  I just want both libraries to be the same.

In short:

1 networked drive containing music
2 independent jrivers on 2 separate computers in which the libraries are EXACTLY THE SAME

Pls Help!!!!!

[blgentry]

It sounds to me like your file tags aren't getting written and read by both systems.  Ideally, you'd want both systems to write tags as they change them.  You'd also want both systems to read tags that were changed in any file.  Right?

Do you have auto import set up on both machines, both pointing to the drive with all of the music?  If not, they will never see tag changes written to the files.

Two other things that have to be turned on (which are on by default as far as I know):

1.  Setting to write tag changes to files as you change them in MC:  Tools > Options > General > Importing & Tagging > Update tags when file info changes > (checked)
2.  Setting to read changed tags from any file in an auto import directory:  Tools > Options > Library & Folders > configure auto import > Tasks > update for external changes > (checked)

With those 3 things done, all tags should get written and read automatically.

Once you turn on any of these that were not on, you may have to manually sync it up one time, which is easy to do.  But be careful what order you do this in!  You'll want to turn Tag Writing on, on the machine with the NEWEST DATA.  That's #1 above.  Then update the tags manually with Update Tags (from Library).

Be careful and make sure you have backups before you start messing with these settings.  Backups of the files *and* of your MC library.

Good luck.

Brian.

[kensn]

Did you try "Library Tools - Update Library (From Tags)  on your Office computer?

Ken

[marsupial]

thanks for the replies!

bigentry:

both of the computers have auto import set to the music folder, both have update tags when file info changes and update for external changes checked.

you say that after those things are done, I may have to manually sync it up one time, by "update tags (from library)".

I cannot find this option anywhere!

kennsn:

similarly, I cannot find the library tools - update library (from tags) option anywhere.  when I am at the main jriver screen viewing my music, the tools > library tools menu has nothing in it!

Thanks again,

[ferday]

select (all) files

right click > library tools

if the choices aren't there, you have bigger problems!

[marsupial]

thanks ferday!

on my office computer I've just selected all files and pulled the trigger with update tags (from library).

It's currently on 15 of 32,000 : x

will update after it's complete!

[blgentry]

on my office computer I've just selected all files and pulled the trigger with update tags (from library).

It's currently on 15 of 32,000 : x

I think you're going the wrong direction.  Didn't you say you just made a lot of changes on the LAB computer?  If so, you need to update tags (from library) on the LAB computer, to write those changes to the tags.  Then on the office computer:  Update library (from tags).

I hope that makes sense.

Brian.

[kensn]

Yes.. stop and undo if you can. You wanted to update the library with the tags.

[marsupial]

i'll try cancelling and then doing it the other way.

i had an alternate idea.

before i started this process, on my lab computer i backed up my jriver library.  could i simply restore this backup to my office computer and they would then be perfectly synced (because my lab computer at the moment is correctly oriented)

[marsupial]

by the time i stopped the process, my office computer had retagged around 2000 files.  

now, on my lab computer things are messed up.

[kensn]

Try to undo on the office computer.

[marsupial]

unfortunately hitting control Z is not doing anything.  would restoring the backup that I made previously fix what I've done?

[blgentry]

No problem, since you have a backup of the LAB computer.  Turn off auto import on the LAB computer.  Then restore your LAB backup to the LAB computer.  Now it should be perfect again.

Now Update Tags (from Library) on the LAB computer.  That should write all the good tags out to the files.

When that's all done, go to OFFICE and Update Library (from Tags).  When the whole thing is done, go back to LAB and turn back on auto import.

Auto import's on/off switch is in:  Tools > Options > Library & Folders > Run auto import in background (check or uncheck)

Good luck.  Again!  

Brian.

[kensn]

If the library backup on the lab computer has your tag changes restored the lab computers library backup.

[marsupial]

update tags (from library) with 32,000 files seems to freeze the program.

it's currently doing that thing where it's grayed out and if i click, a windows dialog appears saying the program is not responding, and do i want to wait or close the program.

[kensn]

You should always try things like this with only a few select files to see if you get the result you want..

[dtc]

Why not maintain the library on one system and have the other access it through a media server,  client/server connection? The simplistic solution seems to be to just maintain one library.

[marsupial]

kensn:

the operation worked when testing with a few files.  still, i would eventually need to perform it for the whole library anyway, right?  before bed last night, i started the process again with the entire library, making sure to leave jriver maximized before leaving.  Looks like the program got up to around 9,000 / 32,000.  when checking this morning the program eventually came up with an error (not a crash) saying something like 22,000 files failed to be tagged.  NOW when i try to tag even a single file I get an error as well, and some artists / albums have randomly gotten messed up (track numbers completely disappearing, single songs disappearing from albums, etc).  unsure what to do.

dtc:

while the client/server setup does seem simplistic, it requires both computers to be on and awake to use either.  I've never gotten wake on lan to work before (for anything) and so it would be extremely annoying to have to monitor the status of both computers if only one is required.  i have actually tried this before, and the biggest reason i'd like to avoid it is that, i seem to get LESS SKIPS when listening to SACDs (or other high bitrate files) through an actual independent library than through a client reading from a server. 

[JimH]

The weak point in the chain is probably this:

marsupial said:

I have a wireless 802.11ac router, into which an external hard drive holds my entire ~2TB music collection.

[blgentry]

Jim's got a point.  You might try restarting all of the relevant components:  Wireless router/disk server, computers, any other networking devices, and MC itself.  Then try again.  Maybe try in batches of 1,000 or less at a time?

Brian.

[JimH]

And the NAS might be running an antivirus program.

[RoderickGI]

I have a wireless 802.11ac router, into which an external hard drive holds my entire ~2TB music collection.

As Jim said, this is almost definitely the weak link in the chain. External drives attached to routers are notoriously slow, particularly if they are a USB drive, where the connection is usually USB2 rather than USB3. Performance of these types of connections is typically well below the maximum speed even of USB2. Priority on the router is given to network traffic, not serving files from the hard drive. If the external drive is attached by Ethernet to the router, it would perform much better, if it is in a good enclosure. If there is a virus scanning solution on the router, and it is a USB drive, then the performance would be miserable.

Updating tags from a library, or the library from tags, is going to touch every file on the drive, multiple times. This will saturate the connection, and I would not be surprised if errors started to creep in. While the method described above is the correct one for this installation, it isn't going to work.

All of the above is also why you get some skips listening to SACDs and high bitrate files, even without implementing a MC Client/Server installation. A USB attached drive on a router is only really good for low usage, low performance uses, such as saving documents to a separate location for backup (not using backup software), or perhaps jpeg images. Small files, small bitrates, low demand and throughput.

One solution would be to back up the library on the Lab computer and restore it to the Office computer. I order to make this work;
1. The router attached drive must be mapped to the same drive letter on each computer, or the same network address for the drive must be used.
2. Each installation of MC must be identical, on the same drive letters, with the same settings. i.e. A standard installation on the C: drive.
3. You may need to be using the same User ID on each PC for it to work. Certainly if you are using any of MCs user capabilities.
4. There may be other issues with things like Cover Art and caches on local storage on each PC.
5. You will need to do all maintenance on one PC, I assume the Lab PC, while the other installation becomes just a clone for playback. Whenever you do maintenance on the Lab PC, you would need to back up the database and restore it again on the Office PC. Annoying.
6. There may be issues with playing music on both PCs at the same time. But you would have those issues now with your current separate libraries and shared music drive.

Basically, that solution may not work. If you try it, back up both your Lab and Office PCs, and keep those backups safe, in case you need to revert.

Another solution would be to move the music drive off the router, particularly if it is USB attached, and put it into a proper Network Attached Storage enclosure, connected via Ethernet to the router. That will give you some performance increase, but maybe not enough, unless you also . . .

Connect both PCs via Ethernet to the router, if at all possible. Especially if your router and PCs have gigabit Ethernet ports. However, if you can do this, then a MC Client/Server installation using Media Server would probably work fine anyway, and you wouldn't need to run two separate libraries, or get into "updating tags from library" and "updating library from tags", so no big performance hit on the drive. Just progressive maintenance load, which is much lower.

If you can't get the PCs on to a wired Ethernet network, and don't want to try a NAS (because it still may not be good enough with a wireless network) then you could try installing the music drive into the Lab PC, then make that PC the MC Server, and the Office PC a MC Client. In that configuration, with almost all maintenance done on the Lab PC (subject to normal restrictions of MC in a Client/Server installation i.e. you can do tagging on a Client PC, but not run Rename, Move & Copy commands), the drive connection and wireless network would probably be fast enough to serve your music without skips, and all your worries about a managing and maintaining a duplicate library will be over.

Oh, one last thing. Wake On LAN is a pain, but it can be made to work, particularly within the one LAN environment such as you have. That is a solvable problem. Also, if you are playing music on the Lab PC, the Office PC doesn't need to be on. It is only when playing music on the Office PC that the Lab PC also needs to be on, and that is the direction that WOL would need to work.

[marsupial]

thank you everyone for the very informative replies.

i realize that my wireless setup is far from ideal, but unfortunately connecting both machines via gigabit connections directly to the router is simply not possible given my current situation.  I could certainly explore using an actual NAS device connected by ethernet to the wireless router instead of the external hard drive (which sadly IS a usb2 connection), however I'd still be limited to wireless data transfer from the NAS to my actual machines. 

that being said, I did opt to install 802.11ac adapters on all of my machines, and do enjoy some nice transfer rates between computers.  when copying large amounts of music to the actual usb2 hard drive on the router, transfer rates seem to hover around 7-8 MB/sec, which seems like it should be sufficient for sacd.

the reason i say this is because the sacd skipping issue may be unrelated to the networking setup.  i control my office loudspeakers setup from a windows laptop computer which feeds into a mytek dsd dac via firewire.  i noticed skipping issues on this machine even when playing sacd files locally - and by locally I mean a usb3 hard drive connected to the laptop.  the rate of skipping i estimate to be approximately 1 per 2 hours of listening.  strangely enough, i don't recall ever having a skip occur on my laboratory headphones setup, which is MUCH more modest in terms of audio equipment, however the computer itself is a desktop that I assembled that is extremely fast.  one thing of interest is that this machine has only EVER played music from the usb drive attached to the router. 

so while i may certainly be wrong, my best hypothesis is that the sacd skipping in my loudspeakers setup is a function of either the slower speed of the laptop being used (upgrade possibility!), or the particular interaction between the machine and the mytek dac itself (not so much of an upgrade possibility).  this could probably be tested by simply bringing the mytek dac to the lab one day and doing some sacd listening trials!

as far as my original problem of tagging on two machines, this is what i did:

after my initial failures, i restored the library on my lab computer, which had been saved at a point at which everything was tagged correctly.

i then went to my office computer and selected every file, and did "update library (from tags)".

after the ~1.5hr operation, everything appeared to be synced correctly, save for - oddly enough - a few tracks of a sarah mclachlan album that found their way to the dreaded (Multiple Artists) group!

Thanks again all ,

-Pete

[RoderickGI]

when copying large amounts of music to the actual usb2 hard drive on the router, transfer rates seem to hover around 7-8 MB/sec, which seems like it should be sufficient for sacd.

As you say, it sounds like the skipping problem is related to the hardware or configuration on your laptop.

However, note that the 7-8 MB/s second transfer rate is the best you will see for a USB attached drive on your router, as mass copying of a bunch of files tends to give the best sustainable speed. Only copying one large file would do better. Operations such as tagging from or to library involve lots of read-write-read-write etc., and it is that process which is going to stress the USB connection. When I have tried using such router attached hard drives, they have always been bogged down by lots of connections and/or small file updates. The throughput drops significantly. For playing music the speed should be fine. For updating the library as described, not so much.

But if you have it all working now to your satisfaction, great!