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[RoderickGI]

IceTV, the only commercial Australian EPG data provider to end users, has just gone into voluntary administration, and it doesn't sound like it is going to survive.

What a shame. They changed the EPG landscape in Australia with their lawsuit against Channel 9, the broadcaster which claimed copyright of all TV Guide data.

Rovi has bought the main (only these days?) commercial provider that provides EPG data wholesale to companies which then use it in products such as newspaper and magazines guides, and the Freeview EPG, which is both a web site and OTA EPG. So we are left with OTA (EIT & MHEG5), Shepherd (maybe), and . . . some broken and hardly used volunteer solutions such as Tivo (no new hardware to be sold in Australia, Tivo pulled out of Australia), and a couple of other partial solutions.

Grumble.

[jmone]

The EPG may survive.... but all the more for the OTA integration (I find it is OK....)

[RoderickGI]

They have $15,000 in the bank and have sold $600,000 to $800,000 worth of Skippas, for which they have not paid the supplier. (Note: It could be actually as little as $400,000 in retail value, and therefore a debt of as little as, say, $200,000, but that is still looking bad. Particularly with the fees an administrator will charge.)

If the EPG survives, it will be because someone buys that portion of the business at a discount rate. They have only 16,500 EPG customers! I never knew how many they had, but that is a small number. While some of them would be paying the full $99 per year subscription fee, most would be on heavily discounted fees, and many would have pre-paid multiple year or lifetime subscriptions. So the actual revenue stream from those 16,500 customers could be quite low. Certainly a lot less than $1.63M.

They have ten employees and very little in assets. Unless they own a building or something. Their ad skipping technology may be worth something, but as we know there are free alternate versions. The legal decision on EPG may even be worth something, but I doubt it. The ruling was specific to the way IceTV created their EPG, and therefore can't be applied like a patent.

So, I'm thinking it is good that I didn't buy their five year subscription at $25 per year just a few months ago. Obviously they were trying to raise cash funds, which is pretty much what I thought.

DISCLAIMER: All the numbers above are guesses, hearsay, and could be just plain wrong. But those are the numbers I found on reading about the development.

[imugli]

This is disappointing. I've been with them for a few years now and couldn't really fault the EPG. What surprises me is the fact that they didn't separate the hardware (skippa) business from the EPG business so if the s hit the f one wouldn't affect the other...

[astromo]

https://www.icetv.com.au/administrator_update.html

I'm guessing but it looks like skippa tipped the balance:
http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/computers/gadgets-on-the-go/online-tv-guide-icetv-put-into-voluntary-administration-20151007-gk3u4y.html

A service provision requires little capital outlay providing some resilience to the balance sheet. Hardware supply is a different beast altogether.

[JimH]

Should JRiver make an offer?

[JimH]

Long thread here:
http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/2390297

The manufacturer is

http://www.uec.com.au/

It appears they have the inventory that icetv needs to fulfill their orders.

[imugli]

A service provision requires little capital outlay providing some resilience to the balance sheet. Hardware supply is a different beast altogether.

Which is why I'm so surprised that they weren't separate entities for liability purposes  ?

[imugli]

Should JRiver make an offer?

For the EPG assets / service? Or Skippa as well?

You'd probably have a captive audience to sell MC into if you purchased the EPG service assets, seeing as a lot of their users use the product via the other HTPC apps.
They also have an API and remote recording scheduling apps set up - if you could integrate those into MC it would be awesome :-)

Skippa? Not so sure...

[imugli]

Long thread here:
http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/2390297

The manufacturer is

http://www.uec.com.au/

It appears they have the inventory that icetv needs to fulfill their orders.

Here is the thread directly related to the Administration -

http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum-replies.cfm?t=2457702&p=4

and the most recent response -

I got another email from the administrators this afternoon, sounding a lot more positive, so there may be hope yet!

They say that they are currently liaising with a number of parties interested in purchasing the business/assets or investing in the Company and will advise the outcome early next week! Yay! Fingers crossed...

JR wouldn't be one of them would it? 

[astromo]

For the EPG assets / service? Or Skippa as well?

You'd probably have a captive audience to sell MC into if you purchased the EPG service assets, seeing as a lot of their users use the product via the other HTPC apps.
They also have an API and remote recording scheduling apps set up - if you could integrate those into MC it would be awesome :-)

Skippa? Not so sure...

I used to use a Topfield PVR box but I found it restrictive and I got to a point of, there's got to be a better way. MC + PC is so much more useful and flexible. I reckon if JRiver wanted to go down that kind of hardware path that it should get TV capability ported to the Linux version and then release the Id-PVR (or whatever cool name Jim dreams up). Then you've got a product that addresses the market who want a 1 stop package based on a hardware platform that has a proven production line.

An EPG service to offer users with that "1 stop, point and shoot" mindset would have a greater value potential but you'd need to fully understand the liability associated with the long term customer base and whether you could turn a quid out of the business proposition being put forward by the administrators.

[RoderickGI]

Should JRiver make an offer?

In my opinion: No.

IceTV won in court the right to sell the curated EPG data that they provide. But the ruling was based on the methodology that they use, which is to infer what TV programs will be shown in the future, based on what has been shown in the past. They can't just look up web sites to see what will be on. They may be allowed to use information from program advertising on the TV channels, but I'm not sure about that. In short, they have no agreement to receive EPG data from the people who schedule the TV programs.

While they do provide good quality EPG data, with Repeat flags, program IDs, good descriptions, etc., when a new program is scheduled I believe they have to make a bit of a guess about it. Certainly I was caught out a few times where a schedule change didn't get picked up before the program actually ran. Also, last time I used it, IceTV didn't have EPG data for all out Australian channels. Just for the majors.

IceTV have developed a significant amount of value-added service around their product, including the remote setting of recordings via an iOS or Android App, their "What's on this week email" which I still get, and integration software with WMC, plus an API that can be used with other applications. Their integration allows push updates of EPG data and recordings, and their Program IDs enable simple Series Recording. So there may be some software assets worth buying, if the company folds and is sold off in bits.

Actually, maybe you could buy a perpetual licence to their software and technology, which would give you a head start in that area, and give them some much needed cash. You may get it cheap.

IceTV is an Australia only EPG data provider, and the IceTV business model and data would not translate to other regions.

What would be worth doing.
EDIT: My bad. It was Gracenote not Rovi who bought HWW. That changes things. Still, Rovi does have a better integration story and vision than Gracenote, as far as I can tell.
Is to come to a world wide agreement with Rovi, just as Microsoft has. Rovi Gracenote bought HWW in Australia last year. HWW was the main, if not only, EPG data consolidator in Australia. They get their data from the broadcasters, and have rights to resell it. No guessing. In addition, as I have mentioned elsewhere, Rovi has an extremely good story when it comes to EPG data and metadata collection and management. The also seem to have, or are developing, some very good tools for integration with other services. After all, that is what they do, sell their data to other companies that then make it available to the public via their own services.

From what I have read, Rovi capabilities would far outstrip IceTV in terms of value added services, particularly in the area of program Discovery, data and images for all sorts of media.

Take note of the lesson though Jim: Hardware development and delivery does not mix well with software and service delivery, and has totally different capital and cash flow profiles.

[astromo]

Also, last time I used it, IceTV didn't have EPG data for all out Australian channels. Just for the majors.

Correct. I was using a trial subscription for interest / comparison up to the point where they pulled the plug.

I found that EPG Collector with the TMDB and theTVdb look up functionality enabled, generally provided comprehensive EPG data that you'd give 9+/10 for. My hassle there is that sometimes the OTA feed can come up short. But that's rare.

EPGC also doesn't have an internal lookup. I queried the developer about this when I noticed that the Rob Sitch comedy, Utopia, on the ABC wasn't being identified correctly. What I wanted to do is to force EPGC to translate any series name coming up as "Utopia" to "Utopia (AU) (2014)" as per theTVdb listing. Too many Utopias out there in TV land. The response I got was, that the problem isn't big enough to chase. Fair enough.

So there's a holy grail out there for a reliable, quality EPG delivery method that integrates well with MC (or any similar PVR via, say, XMLTV) and requires minimal management effort from the user.

[astromo]

What would be worth doing.
Is to come to a world wide agreement with Rovi, just as Microsoft has. Rovi bough HWW in Australia last year. HWW was the main, if not only, EPG data consolidator in Australia. They get their data from the broadcasters, and have rights to resell it. No guessing. In addition, as I have mentioned elsewhere, Rovi has an extremely good story when it comes to EPG data and metadata collection and management. The also seem to have, or are developing, some very good tools for integration with other services. After all, that is what they do, sell their data to other companies that then make it available to the public via their own services.

From what I have read, Rovi capabilities would far outstrip IceTV in terms of value added services, particularly in the area of program Discovery, data and images for all sorts of media.

Small point of detail, I think you mean gracenote:
http://www.gracenote.com/gracenote-acquires-hww-expands-global-reach-into-australia/

“We are seeing increasing demand from customers to support Australia and the surrounding region,” said John Batter, CEO of Gracenote. “As new services roll-out around the globe, our customers are seeking an entertainment data provider with knowledge and expertise of the local broadcasters and regional movie catalogs. With the addition of HWW and the recent acquisition of What’s-ON, Gracenote is now in a position to support our customers and help expand their products and services in Australia, India and throughout Asia-Pacific.”

Australia is ranked as one of the top 15 TV markets in the world, with a growing base of digital and connected TV services. HWW syndicates TV and movie data to leading Australian broadcasters, pay-TV operators and on-demand services for program guides on a wide range of devices, including IPTV, cable & satellite set-top boxes, Smart TVs and mobile apps.

The company has data describing millions of TV programs and movies across more than 700 national and local TV channels in Australia. Its customers include Fetch TV, Foxtel, Freeview, ninemsn, Samsung and Yahoo!7. HWW’s DataGenius software platform is also used to support entertainment data services in 50 countries across Australasia, Africa and the Middle East.

http://www.rovicorp.com/company/press-releases/2013/9/4/rovi-broadens-global-data-footprint-to-serve-customers-expansion.html

For Australia, Rovi offers entertainment data on programming originating in Australia as well as international TV shows, movies and celebrities relevant to the Australian market.

I get the impression that outfits like gracenote and rovi only want to deal with big players and not individuals in the way that icetv did. It seems to me that they're passing up on value that could be money for jam if they setup a simple subscription service where a user could download an XMLTV file.

Maybe the little fish are just too small, whereas a presence like MC would command attention.

[RoderickGI]

Small point of detail, I think you mean gracenote:

Yes. Quite right. I even wrote about it: http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=100144.msg693985#msg693985
My bad. Rovi may still be able to offer something in Australia for EPG. They keep expanding their geographic footprint. Not yet though.

I get the impression that outfits like gracenote and rovi only want to deal with big players and not individuals in the way that icetv did. It seems to me that they're passing up on value that could be money for jam if they setup a simple subscription service where a user could download an XMLTV file.

Maybe the little fish are just too small, whereas a presence like MC would command attention.

Definitely. That is why zap2it exists. To distance Gracenote from the hordes of end users. We see directly the level of support required to get EPG to work for end users in a few regions. Imagine the support load if either Rovi or Gracenote supplied EPG data directly world wide?! Hence, end user driven tools, setup, and support for EPG solutions. Those that can't get it to work, bad luck. I still think Microsoft has done an amazing job with EPG in WMC for markets they support. They have made it pretty easy to set up and use, and yet there are enormous numbers of people whingeing about it suddenly not working, or not working as well, for free software providing a free service!

Of course that is the other issue. Many many people believe that EPG data should be provided free of charge, and delivered into their software solution, the way they want it, now! That makes it hard for anyone to start charging for a solution.

[RoderickGI]

I found that EPG Collector with the TMDB and theTVdb look up functionality enabled, generally provided comprehensive EPG data that you'd give 9+/10 for. My hassle there is that sometimes the OTA feed can come up short. But that's rare.

I am a little concerned about the future reliability of EPGC, as I found out recently that the Freeview MHEG-5 OTA EPG service is being discontinued for some TV models. It wasn't clear if the OTA data stream was ever going to be discontinued though. The FreeviewPlus EPG is either supplied via broadband, or hybrid OTA plus broadband, so EPGC may not be able to cope with the future FreeviewPlus.
Article: http://www.freeview.com.au/about-us/news-press-releases/freeview-announcement-sunset-mheg/

EPGC also doesn't have an internal lookup. I queried the developer about this when I noticed that the Rob Sitch comedy, Utopia, on the ABC wasn't being identified correctly. What I wanted to do is to force EPGC to translate any series name coming up as "Utopia" to "Utopia (AU) (2014)" as per theTVdb listing. Too many Utopias out there in TV land. The response I got was, that the problem isn't big enough to chase. Fair enough.

We are into EPGC support now, but;
Internal lookup: Strange. I had a quick look around the EPGC forum but couldn't find Steve saying that EPGC didn't do an internal lookup. After all, what else are the TV Series and Movie databases for? Perhaps I misunderstand what you are saying.

Utopia: Even stranger, as you should be able to do that using the Edit tab, as per the example in the image below. Not tested. You may need to clear the TV Series database again, and force metadata to be fetched again for all series. Sometimes getting the right answer is all about how the question is asked.


BTW, if all you were trying to do was get MC to automatically look up the correct series using "Get Movie & TV Info", all you are supposed to have to do is one manual lookup for the series, select the correct series in TheTVDB, and save to MC, which will then save TheTVDB ID to the series group in MC, so that all future manual and automatic "Get Movie & TV Info" tasks should default to the correct TV series in TheTVDB. Glynor has written that up a couple of times. I'll let you do the searching.

PS: Having worked for the government in WA and VIC, my other half can't stand to watch that program. It is too depressingly accurate!

[imugli]

Seems the IceTV guide will continue -

http://www.theage.com.au/digital-life/computers/gadgets-on-the-go/icetv-lives-but-undelivered-skippa-pvrs-dead-and-buried-20151016-gkbaaw.html

whether that includes the webget xmltv service or not is another matter, I suppose.

[RoderickGI]

Maybe once the dust has settled, Colin O'Brien would be willing to consider building MC integration as a replacement for the WMC integration? Most of the functionality would already be there in the WMC integration.

That would give us Australians all the neat functionality of IceTV, and a great EPG data source. It is still a bit expensive though at $7.99 a month. After all, that is close to the cost of a streaming service such as Netflix, Presto, Stan, or Quickflix.

[imugli]

Maybe once the dust has settled, Colin O'Brien would be willing to consider building MC integration as a replacement for the WMC integration? Most of the functionality would already be there in the WMC integration.

That would give us Australians all the neat functionality of IceTV, and a great EPG data source. It is still a bit expensive though at $7.99 a month. After all, that is close to the cost of a streaming service such as Netflix, Presto, Stan, or Quickflix.

RE Building MC integration? Can't see it happening. The new entity is just licencing the data from the administrators (who I assume are still technically employing the employees). The company under admin still owns all the IP from what I'm reading into things. We pay the new entity, they pay the company under administration, who then pays employees (notice the article doesn't state the new company is EMPLOYING the staff, just paying them), administrators and creditors (yeah, right).
 

[RoderickGI]

For the moment, yes. But things will change, in time.

Actually for the moment the administrators could still sell the IceTV technology to offset losses, so there is still an opportunity there.

But it also looks like eBroadcast are doing something in the area, so the new IceTV may have some competition soon, and possibly at a much lower price point.