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[wburkett]

I'm finally giving MC a try and would like some help with extended ID3 Tags.  (I raised this question as part of another thread, but want to focus on it directly here.)

iTunes (9.x) stores the value of the Description field on the Video tab in the ID3Tag called "Subtitle".  I can clearly see this tag and it's value when looking at the mp3 files with MP3Tag.  MP3Tag calls these "Extended Tags".

What I want to know is: How can I "get at" the value of that extended tag (subtitle) and add it to my list of Library Fields in MC?

thx - Bill

[blgentry]

I was trying to recreate this, but I'm having trouble figuring out what kind of file you are talking about.  MP3s aren't video, so you must mean something else, like MP4 maybe?  My version of itunes (the latest) seems to write the "description" tag as "desc", and that gets imported directly in MC.  I tested this with an MP4 video file.

I would suggest that you look at the tags in the file using MC.  It's kind of unusual how you see the actual file tags:

1.  Select your file and open the tagging pane.
2.  At the top of the tagging pane, you'll see a little thumbnail and right beside it, it will say MP4 (or whatever the file type is), and the size and duration.  Click on the text that says "MP4" (or whatever the file type is).  You wouldn't think this would be clickable, but it is.
3.  A new small window will open at the bottom of the left navigation area, showing you the raw tags inside the file.

Once you've validated that Subtitle is indeed in the file(s) you are working with, you can create that as a Library field in MC.

Tools > Options > Library & Folders > Manage Library Fields.
Then add your field with the exact name of the field that's in the file.  It's probably best to add it as a string type, with the defaults.
After you've added the field to MC, it should pick up this field in new files you add.  You can force it to re-read the tags of files that are already in the library by selecting a file (or more than one) and then:  <right click> Library Tools > Update library (from tags) .

Brian.

[wburkett]

Thanks for the help, Brian.

I am specifically talking about MP3 files and ID3v2 Tags.  When I follow your instructions, I do get the Tag window with the following results:

Code: [Select]

MPEG-1 Layer 3
192 Kbit CBR
Stereo

Copyrighted: No
Original: No
Protected by CRC: No
Encoder: <unknown>
Gapless: No

ID3v1 Tag: none

ID3v2 Tag: (19479 bytes)
  TIT2 (Name): Tweedle Dee & Tweedle Dum
  TCOM (Composer): Bob Dylan
  TRCK (Track #): 1/12
  TPOS (Disc #): 1/1
  TYER (Year): 2001
  TENC: iTunes v4.6.0.15
  COMM (iTunNORM):  00000A74 000008F1 00008330 0000423E 0002A9A1 00034178 00008B3C 00008AAC 0003ED00 0003ED00
  COMM (iTunes_CDDB_IDs): 12+DA7858CA3FC71565DA516B8438E9D554+1544458
  APIC (Picture) (0): <too large to display>
  TPE1 (Artist): Bob Dylan
  TPE2 (Album Artist): Bob Dylan
  TALB (Album): "Love And Theft"
  TCON (Genre): Rock/Folk
  TSOP (Artist Sort): Dylan, Bob
  TS2?: Dylan, Bob
  TT3?: <too large to display>

The tag I'm looking for, Subtitle, is not in this list.  It may be buried in the "TT3?: <too large to display>"

Here are the tags for the same file displayed using Mp3tag properties:



As you can see, the tag value IS there in the mp3 file.   I'm beginning to wonder if MC can get at it.  Any other suggestions?

Bill

[blgentry]

You can try making a Subtitle library field in MC.  Then update Library from tags on a file that you know has the Subtitle field in it's tags.  Then see if that shows up in MC's subtitle field.  Worth a try.

Brian.

[wburkett]

You can try making a Subtitle library field in MC.  Then update Library from tags on a file that you know has the Subtitle field in it's tags.  Then see if that shows up in MC's subtitle field.  Worth a try.

I tried that, but I don't know how to "get to" that subtitle tag. When I create a new field in the "Manage Library Fields" function, none of the options for "Data" allow me to identify a particular tag to grab the value from.

The tag and value are there in the mp3 file.  MC can't get to it.

Addendum (about 10 minutes later): I might be getting closer and you might be right, Brian - though it is still weird what's going on.  I just noticed that if I click the drop-down arrow for the "subtitle" field I created, it does present a list of the content of the subtitle field to choose from (the "----album metadata----" content you see in the image above.)   So MC /is/, in fact, accessing the content of that tag and knows it is connected to the newly created Library Field -- but why a dropdown list instead of assigning the value to the field?  The "update from tags" has no effect.

Bill

[blgentry]

I just noticed that if I click the drop-down arrow for the "subtitle" field I created, it does present a list of the content of the subtitle field to choose from (the "----album metadata----" content you see in the image above.)   So MC /is/, in fact, accessing the content of that tag and knows it is connected to the newly created Library Field -- but why a dropdown list instead of assigning the value to the field?

I'm no expert here.  I think that values that appear in the pulldown menu are values that are in SOME of the files.  For example, if you select 5 files and then open the tagging pane, it will show "Varies" for some of the tags.  When you go to the pulldown menu, it will give you selections for some of the values in those files and allow you to assign one value to all of them by selecting it.

Are you seeing this behavior with only ONE file selected?

I just tested this, and YES I see values in the pulldown list with only one file selected!  Ok, so it must be looking at "all files" to make suggestions in the pulldown list.

I would go to a list view that shows a lot of your files (or all).  Then add Subtitle as a column.  Finally, either sort by subtitle so you can see which ones have values for subtitle, OR do a search that omits blank values for subtitle.  That search would be something like:

Code: [Select]

-[subtitle]=""
Those techniques should give you a good view into which of your files are showing values for subtitle and what those values are.

Brian.

[wburkett]

Thanks for all your help in figuring this out, Brian.  I think we're getting closer to figuring out what's happening.

I did what you suggested and - what a surprise! - I discovered that some of the tracks did, in fact, have values in the subtitle field.  What was interesting is some entire albums had values in "subtitle", most entire albums did not, and - interestingly - some albums had a few tracks with values "subtitle" and the rest with nothing.

It took me a while to figure out the differences between why some tracks did have a "Subtitle" value and some didn't.  Looking at the ID3 tags for my test files in Mp3Tag, there is a tag called "Tag" with values such as "ID3v2.2 (ID3v2.2)", "ID3v2.3 (ID3v1 ID3v2.3)", and "ID3v2.3 (ID3v2.3)".  For the tracks with a "ID3v2.3" value in the Tag field, MC could "see" the Subtitle tag value and put it in the proper library field.  It could not/did not see or process ID3v2.2 or below values (or the lone .m4a set of albums files in my test group). 

Here is an interesting behavior:  In Mp3Tag, if I click on, say, the track name field to edit it and escape right back out without changing it, Mp3Tag changes the value of the Tag tag to "ID3v2.3 (ID3v1 ID3v2.3)" - I guess that that is its default standard.   Then in MC, when I "Update Library (from Tags)", suddenly that track I touched in Mp3Tag had a value for "Subtitle" where before it had been blank.

The conclusion, therefore, is that MC "understands" ID3v2.3 tags/standard but doesn't process/understand/look at tags from earlier versions of the ID3 standard.

So: case closed.  I just need to figure out how to make all my files ID3v2.3 files -- Mp3Tag to the rescue? ? ? ?

Bill

P.S. The reason I am obsessing on this is that I used this description/subtitle field in iTunes to store album metadata.  My hope is that when migrating to JMRC I can parse-out this metadata in the subtitle field into newly created JMRC library fields. 

[blgentry]

For the tracks with a "ID3v2.3" value in the Tag field, MC could "see" the Subtitle tag value and put it in the proper library field.  It could not/did not see or process ID3v2.2 or below values (or the lone .m4a set of albums files in my test group). 

Hmm.  I'm not educated enough on MC's interaction with various levels of ID3 tags to comment except to say:  That's weird. 

So: case closed.  I just need to figure out how to make all my files ID3v2.3 files -- Mp3Tag to the rescue? ? ? ?

I would bet that MP3Tag, or KID3, or some other tagger could be told to batch convert a group of files to ID3v2.3.  I'm not sure how, but it's got to be possible.

P.S. The reason I am obsessing on this is that I used this description/subtitle field in iTunes to store album metadata.  My hope is that when migrating to JMRC I can parse-out this metadata in the subtitle field into newly created JMRC library fields. 

When you get to that point, if you can't get it figured out, post a new topic on it, and we'll help you out.  We can almost certainly whip up some Regex or something else to parse out the data you have in that field.

Good luck!

Brian.

[wburkett]

I would bet that MP3Tag, or KID3, or some other tagger could be told to batch convert a group of files to ID3v2.3.  I'm not sure how, but it's got to be possible.

If I select all the files in Mp3Tag and simply hit "Save", it rewrites all the tags as ID3v2.3 - so problem solved there.  And MC picks them all up.

When you get to that point, if you can't get it figured out, post a new topic on it, and we'll help you out.  We can almost certainly whip up some Regex or something else to parse out the data you have in that field.

Thanks, Brian - I'm almost there. And thanks again for your help.

Bill

[Arindelle]

Hi
Seems like you are sorted on this, but just for info here's a link to some tag field mapping tables .. http://wiki.hydrogenaud.io/index.php?title=Tag_Mapping

JRiver uses (a sort of modified) Vorbis Comment tags .... more complete than ID3 2.3 or 2.4. The subtitle field from apple is "SUBTITLE" same as in Vorbis, but it is "TIT3" in ID3. Might want to check this, and if it helps you can remap in JRiver. You probably have some stuff using itunes as a tagger? Some not?

[blgentry]

Interesting.  That wiki at Hydrogen Audio makes NO MENTION of ID3v2.2 .  None.  Only 1.1, 2.3, and 2.4. Which implies that 2.2 is some sort of non-standard or "dead" format.  I wonder if MC doesn't really support 2.2 extended tags at all?

I guess it doesn't matter at this point; just interesting.

Brian.

[Arindelle]

Interesting.  That wiki at Hydrogen Audio makes NO MENTION of ID3v2.2 .  None.  Only 1.1, 2.3, and 2.4. Which implies that 2.2 is some sort of non-standard or "dead" format.  I wonder if MC doesn't really support 2.2 extended tags at all?

I think it was a short-term version is all ... the big difference is between v1 and v2. I've never run into any problem with MC tag support I think I had to actually remap manually one field and it was pretty esoteric ... ID3 is basically for MP3 containers originally; Vorbis is much better for larger containers like FLAC specifically. So it not so much that MC doesn't support ID3, but rather if external players/devices support extended Vorbis tags. Usually this doesn't make a difference, unless someone actually want to go backwards to itunes or something.

Sometimes the wording is different on the screen like [publisher] and [label], but they get translated in the mix somewhere down the line If i need to use an external tagger which is pretty rare for me, I never use one that doesn't support ID3v2+ AND Vorbis ... but I only use MP3s on the go, so I suppose if people still use only MP3s that might not be a big concern.

Also depends on how the ripping software initially handles writing the tags to the files. MP3tag, MC, dbpoweramp, itunes etc. can be writing more or less metadata depending on how its configured (or rather if they are configurable at all)

[wburkett]

JRiver uses (a sort of modified) Vorbis Comment tags .... more complete than ID3 2.3 or 2.4. The subtitle field from apple is "SUBTITLE" same as in Vorbis, but it is "TIT3" in ID3. Might want to check this, and if it helps you can remap in JRiver. You probably have some stuff using itunes as a tagger? Some not?

What do you mean "remap in JRiver", Arindelle? 

Background: I have been using iTunes 9.x for many many years and storing music as mp3.  I am planning to migrate from iTunes to MC.  iTunes has been my primary tool for managing my digital music library and tagging the mp3 files.   It seems I "locked in" to a unfortunate version of iTunes because it appears that it writes ID3v2.2 tags (confirmed this this morning). 

[wburkett]

Hey - I've got another question about ID3 tags:  I've figured out how to get to the Album Sort and Artist Sort tags/value but can't figure out the right field name to get to Album Artist Sort.  Any suggestions?

[Arindelle]

What do you mean "remap in JRiver", Arindelle? 

first, what MC does (or how I have observed it doing so chime in someone if needed ) --- a standard field like Track Title = TIT2 in ID3 2.2+; TITLE in Vorbis; and @nam in itunes (mp4 container) but it is "mapped" in JRiver as [Name] - on import it will interpret the other tag field names.

Another example being performer and soloists etc.

Album Artist sort is not that common/standard of a  field and is often even missing from metadata that a ripper will download, Artist Sort however is almost always there. Album sort is ALBUMARTISTSORT in Vorbis Comment (TS02 in ID3, soaa in itunes if written to the file at all) you might find that itunes is not writing this to the file (in your tag dump I do not see it showing at least) --- the Album Artist field is tricky for a number of reasons that I don't have time to go into but the album artist (or album artist (auto) field -- see the wiki for more info ) creates a key combination for a sort of unique identifier in most JRiver views. Other software uses this too in different ways.

So you have to create a field in JRIver and decide whether or not this should be written to the file (usually you would want this). If the ripped info exists it should be imported (if the external changes option is ticked). Of course to use or see the custom field it has to be included in a View or list.

When using a "dump" field like you did, it is probably better to use a field that exists (even if mapped differently) in all three formats for you ID3 and itune mp4 and Vorbis. (eg I used GROUPING as a "supra"-genre field and this is supported by most software - subtitle is sort of wierd for audio IMO)

One way of re-mapping which can be done as a temporary fix or permanent one (a custom "calculation field" -- I don't have the time right now to go into the detail step-by step. )

However for you, Album artist sort field the vast majority of your albums are going to have the same values in both artist sort and album artist sort field; the compilations which might represent say 10% should all say something like Various Artists or Multiple Artists; the exceptions won't be that many (or can be treated by REGEX maybe wit help form people like Brian )

as an example once both sort fields have been created (reminder: Options Library & Folders=> Manage Library fields)

you have the artist sort tag then,  for the new album artist sort field,  select all the files that are NOT multiple artist albums and type =[Artist Sort] (the exact field name between brackets) in the Album Artist Sort field form the tag window ... all will be filled out for you. Try this with a couple albums first! Make sure you backup the library FIRST too.  The select all the compilation albums  and put what you want in the a.a.sort field --- I put zzzVarious Artists so that my compilation records appear at the bottom. With a fast computer this takes seconds for a very large library.

The same logic can be applied making a calculation field for more unusual fields.

Personally I recommend that after you make the adjustments, you do NOT use itunes for any tagging, do not let it "optimize" or touch your real music library. If you don't like JRiver for tagging or ripping there are other good taggers/rippers out there that will not mess up your music but itunes is going to cause you head aches! itunes is one of the only bits of software that has a lot of compatibility issues , IMHO aagain. I would also verify that you have a directory structure that is simple and more or less universal (ALBUMARTIST/ALBUM/tracks + cover art); itunes wrecks havoc with directory structures 

[wburkett]

Thank you for the very thorough reply, Arindelle --- some responses:

Personally I recommend that after you make the adjustments, you do NOT use itunes for any tagging, do not let it "optimize" or touch your real music library. If you don't like JRiver for tagging or ripping there are other good taggers/rippers out there that will not mess up your music

My migration plan calls for making a complete copy of my music library, import the copy into MC, and run iTunes/MC concurrently until I'm satisfied I have MC under control.  A little tedious but it allows me to fall back to "old methods" if something with MC doesn't work out.

first, what MC does (or how I have observed it doing so chime in someone if needed ) --- a standard field like Track Title = TIT2 in ID3 2.2+; TITLE in Vorbis; and @nam in itunes (mp4 container) but it is "mapped" in JRiver as [Name] - on import it will interpret the other tag field names.

I do wish MC were a little more transparent about how it handles tags, and what tags is does handle.

Album Artist sort is not that common/standard of a  field and is often even missing from metadata that a ripper will download, Artist Sort however is almost always there. Album sort is ALBUMARTISTSORT in Vorbis Comment (TS02 in ID3, soaa in itunes if written to the file at all) you might find that itunes is not writing this to the file (in your tag dump I do not see it showing at least) ---

iTunes 9.x does write AlbumArtistSort properly to mp3 ID3 tags; I have verified this with Mp3Tag.  But - you have a good point: AlbumArtistSort is not that meaningful for most recordings.

When using a "dump" field like you did, it is probably better to use a field that exists (even if mapped differently) in all three formats for you ID3 and itune mp4 and Vorbis. (eg I used GROUPING as a "supra"-genre field and this is supported by most software - subtitle is sort of wierd for audio IMO)

One way of re-mapping which can be done as a temporary fix or permanent one (a custom "calculation field" -- I don't have the time right now to go into the detail step-by step. )

I get the idea of mapping/connecting/remapping an ID3 tag to a MC Library Field but have no idea how to do this.  So far, my experience of "getting at" ID3 tags that aren't already mapped/connected to standard MC Library Fields has been the "shot in the dark" method: I create a Library Field with a (hopefully correct) name that MC magically connects with an ID3 tag/value.   With subtitle, album sort, and artist sort, I just created a Library Field with the right name and - viola! - MC gets the right value from the ID3 tag.  I don't see any way, for example, to explicitly tell MC:  "Map/connect ID3v2.3 tag TSO2 to MC Library Field MyAlbumArtistSort".  Hence my comment above about wishing MC was more transparent about the way it handles/manages/connects to tags.

Thanks again for your help, Arindelle.

[blgentry]

I get the idea of mapping/connecting/remapping an ID3 tag to a MC Library Field but have no idea how to do this.  So far, my experience of "getting at" ID3 tags that aren't already mapped/connected to standard MC Library Fields has been the "shot in the dark" method: I create a Library Field with a (hopefully correct) name that MC magically connects with an ID3 tag/value.   With subtitle, album sort, and artist sort, I just created a Library Field with the right name and - viola! - MC gets the right value from the ID3 tag.

I *think* JRiver will read a tag into a field if the "friendly name" of the tag matches the name of the field.  For example, I just opened an album of MP3s in KID3 (a free tag editor).  I added a field called "FB Sort", and gave it some values for the songs in that album.

Then I looked at the tag dump in MC and it was right there, reading as:  TXXX (FB Sort): Bar  .  Bar is the value I gave some of the songs for the FB Sort field.

Then I made a new Library field in MC called "FB Sort".  After doing Library Tools > Update Library (from tags), FB Sort filled in all the values from the tags of the MP3s.  So it definitely seems to use the friendly name of the Tag.  My example is slightly contrived, I admit, because I created the tags myself.  Luckily, or unluckily, I don't have any of my collection in itunes, other than some test files that don't have anything special in the tags.

I think if you just open your files in a tag editor like KID3, you'll see the friendly tag name and be able to replicate it into MC's library by creating new MC fields, like you've successfully done for some fields already!

On the subject of your sorting fields:  What do you plan to do with these fields once they are in MC?  MC can sort on almost any field, so it's really nice in that respect.  Think about what MC will *need* to do the job you want done.  Rather than trying to port all of itunes data, with it's itunes way of thinking and sorting.  What data will MC need to achieve your goals?  If it's in those tags, cool.  If not, then we can figure out some other way to meet your sorting and organizational desires.

At a minimum, you should become conversant with MC's use of [Album Artist] and [Album Artist (auto)].  They are fundamental to how albums get grouped and sorted.

http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Album_Artist_and_Album_Artist_%28Auto%29

I think you're going to find that MC can do almost anything you want in terms of organization and sorting. 

Brian.

[wburkett]

I *think* JRiver will read a tag into a field if the "friendly name" of the tag matches the name of the field.  For example, I just opened an album of MP3s in KID3 (a free tag editor).  I added a field called "FB Sort", and gave it some values for the songs in that album.

Then I looked at the tag dump in MC and it was right there, reading as:  TXXX (FB Sort): Bar  .  Bar is the value I gave some of the songs for the FB Sort field....

Ah -- thanks, Brian -- another good suggestion that yields something interesting.   I wasn't sure what you meant by "tag dump" and then remembered your earlier advice.  When I did a tag dump on a file with an AlbumArtistSort value, I see the following (these are just representative examples):

Code: [Select]

TIT2(Name): Blowin in the Wind
TCON (Genre): Folk
TPE1 (Artist): Bob Dylan
TIT3 (Subtitle): <too large to display>
TSOP (Artist Sort): Dylan, Bob
TSO2: Dylan, Bob
Note that TSO2 is the value I want but - unlike the other tags - it doesn't have a library field associated with it.  And I HAVE created a Library Fields call "Album Artist Sort".   This is what makes me wonder whether I'm just not guessing the right friendly name.  How can I connect TSO2 with Album Artist Sort?

On the subject of your sorting fields:  What do you plan to do with these fields once they are in MC? 

I just want to make sure I get as many iTunes-created tag values out of my music files as I can.  The big job is going to be parsing the "subtitle" data into newly created fields.  Where I'm ultimately going is to be able to create playlists like "select all highly rated reggae songs from 75-78 suitable for workouts" - create metadata to filter out the songs I want on the fly in many different ways.   So the "sorting" fields really aren't that important.

[blgentry]

Code: [Select]

TIT2(Name): Blowin in the Wind
TCON (Genre): Folk
TPE1 (Artist): Bob Dylan
TIT3 (Subtitle): <too large to display>
TSOP (Artist Sort): Dylan, Bob
TSO2: Dylan, Bob
Note that TSO2 is the value I want but - unlike the other tags - it doesn't have a library field associated with it.  And I HAVE created a Library Fields call "Album Artist Sort".   This is what makes me wonder whether I'm just not guessing the right friendly name.  How can I connect TSO2 with Album Artist Sort?

I'm sorry to say that I don't know.  Maybe someone else will tell us how... if it's possible.

I just want to make sure I get as many iTunes-created tag values out of my music files as I can.  The big job is going to be parsing the "subtitle" data into newly created fields.  Where I'm ultimately going is to be able to create playlists like "select all highly rated reggae songs from 75-78 suitable for workouts" - create metadata to filter out the songs I want on the fly in many different ways.   So the "sorting" fields really aren't that important.

Ok.  I'll offer again to help when you get to the point of parsing the Subtitle field.  If you even need the help. 

The example you offered would actually be pretty easy as a SmartList, but I'm guessing you already know that.

Brian.

[Arindelle]

Code: [Select]

TIT2(Name): Blowin in the Wind
TCON (Genre): Folk
TPE1 (Artist): Bob Dylan
TIT3 (Subtitle): <too large to display>
TSOP (Artist Sort): Dylan, Bob
TSO2: Dylan, Bob
Note that TSO2 is the value I want but - unlike the other tags - it doesn't have a library field associated with it.  And I HAVE created a Library Fields call "Album Artist Sort".   This is what makes me wonder whether I'm just not guessing the right friendly name.  How can I connect TSO2 with Album Artist Sort?

I just want to make sure I get as many iTunes-created tag values out of my music files as I can.  The big job is going to be parsing the "subtitle" data into newly created fields.  Where I'm ultimately going is to be able to create playlists like "select all highly rated reggae songs from 75-78 suitable for workouts" - create metadata to filter out the songs I want on the fly in many different ways.   So the "sorting" fields really aren't that important.

I'll try and take a stab at this ... first the field name should be ALBUMARTISTSORT you can display it differently (ie Album Artist Sort) but that is the standard tag name for Vorbis Comment (see link above). If this does not exists create it and then run a manual "auto-import". Do they show up? If not try this

Create field TSO2. Reimport a couple of albums, just to be sure. Create or use existing Album Artist sort field. Select tracks from a few albums with the TS02 metadata. And in your Album artist sort field box from within the tag window type

Code: [Select]

=[TSO2]
this will automatically fill the Album Artist Sort field. If you are satisfied with this you can permanently remap, by changing Album Artist sort to a calculation field type this in the expression box

Code: [Select]

[TSO2]

or you can just select all tracks and type the =[TS02] keeping it as a data field as above which might be preferable as calculation fields can't be written to the file (euh generally).  If you are still using itunes concurrently -- stop ripping with it though and don't just copy the file structure; better to reimport into itunes if you need it

In terms of "transparency" as you mentioned I think it is pretty transparent .... its Vorbis Comment which most people would want to use anyways as it is the better standard for lossless files. I do agree that the default tag field name that is shown should not be the friendly version but the ID/Vorbis equivalent ... I doubt they will changes millions of lines of code but maybe that would be a good request to get a mapping chart of the "friendly names" to the actual Vorbis ones (in the top box that is greyed out you still see the "friendly" names)

Lastly, I'll leave it to people that know REGEX for any parsing, but personally, I really recommend that you choose standard field(s) and not custom/unusual ones for any really important tag info. Like just transfer the Subtitle field in itunes and retag it to comments for example. I realize this would be really tedious though with itunes limits. But you could easily do this applying the above logic within JRiver. That way no matter what the future brings the tags written to the files will be importable in virtually any software

[wburkett]

(sorry for the delayed response - been out of town)

Thanks for the suggestions, Arindelle.

first the field name should be ALBUMARTISTSORT you can display it differently (ie Album Artist Sort) but that is the standard tag name for Vorbis Comment (see link above). If this does not exists create it and then run a manual "auto-import". Do they show up?

Nope.

Create field TSO2. Reimport a couple of albums, just to be sure. Create or use existing Album Artist sort field. Select tracks from a few albums with the TS02 metadata. And in your Album artist sort field box from within the tag window type

I tried this and the TSO2 field is not populated from the tag data.  (I tried TS02 (zero two), too, just to be safe.)  The track data does have a value for TSO2, as shown above, but - as before - I can't get at it with MC.

So - no values in AlbumArtistSort or TSO2 library fields.

I really recommend that you choose standard field(s) and not custom/unusual ones for any really important tag info.

I would be happy to "write my data" to standard fields, but how can I know what/where they are?  I can see a lot of possibilities through Mp3Tag, but don't know how to transfer that knowledge to MC.   And while I understand the idea of tags and that they're stored in the music file, I'm a newbie to this and haven't dug in this deep before and there's a lot I still don't know. (eg "Vorbis" ... is that a tagging standard like ID3 or a music encoding standard like MP3 (or both?))

Bill

[blgentry]

This is interesting to follow because I'm not super duper clear on how ID3 or Vorbis tags get imported into MC's library.  I think I've mostly got it now, but I'll claim ignorance on tags without "friendly names".  The only way I can think of is to use an external tagger to copy the tags from TSO2 (as an example) to some other unused tag, and then import that into MC and copy the tags *again* to another tag that makes sense.

So, for example, you could use MP3Tag to copy TSO2 into the Comment tag.  Then import (or update if they are already imported).  Then use MC to copy Comment into a sorting field that you have made in MC.

But I keep coming back to first principles:  How will having this tag information in MC help you?  Do you sort your collection by last name and use that?  I only ask because, I've found that, while it's neat to think about how you might sort by last name or whatever, I just about never browse my collection and *want* to see it sorted by last name.  When I want to hear Bob Dylan, I type "dylan" into the search box and then all of his albums appear.

Of course I realize that people use these tools in different ways, and that's part of the beauty of MC:  You can set it up in just about any way you want.  I'm just asking because MC has more searching capabilities than a lot of other players and it makes *some* types of organization (and sorting) far less useful than they might be in other programs.

Brian.

[Arindelle]

(sorry for the delayed response - been out of town)

Thanks for the suggestions, Arindelle.

Nope.

I tried this and the TSO2 field is not populated from the tag data.  (I tried TS02 (zero two), too, just to be safe.)  The track data does have a value for TSO2, as shown above, but - as before - I can't get at it with MC.

So - no values in AlbumArtistSort or TSO2 library fields.

I would be happy to "write my data" to standard fields, but how can I know what/where they are?  I can see a lot of possibilities through Mp3Tag, but don't know how to transfer that knowledge to MC.   And while I understand the idea of tags and that they're stored in the music file, I'm a newbie to this and haven't dug in this deep before and there's a lot I still don't know. (eg "Vorbis" ... is that a tagging standard like ID3 or a music encoding standard like MP3 (or both?))

Bill

Hmm .. maybe a dev can step in to confirm, but this is how I think it works .... arguably, most users would be using flac or other lossless file containers .. so FLAC, ALAC (apple lossless) and other lossless/lossy formats (mp3, mp4 ape etc) are seamlessly supported for the most part, but are internally interpreted using "Friendly" names. why when importing a file tagged with itunes, or Dbpoweramp or tag and rename can all be imported.

HOWEVER, it looks like some fields are using alternate fields ... see this Picard (the music brainz tagger) mapping  Link http://picard.musicbrainz.org/docs/mappings/ as well as the footnote in the Hydrogen Audio Link for Album Artist Sort order

==>so TSO2 is actually mapped from TXXX:ALBUMARTISTSORT .... note that in the tag dump window this shows up like TXXX (ALBUMARTISTSORT). It looks like many extended tags are remapped or stored to (depending on if JRiver does the tagging) to TXXX field names. My bad sorry. (see my tag dump attached that I did on a sample MP3 converted from FLAC for all the TXXX fields).

I reversed this process and get it to work by creating the tag fields in JRiver and tagging from within JRIver. I don't have the time to reload itunes, but I did load Mp3Tag (the well-known freeware program) and it shows up. I don't have the time to try this in the other way which is what you want to do  ... so try using that field name. If this does not work for you it could be linked to the fact that itunes and JRiver use Album Artist in a different way. Actually Album Artist + Album name creates a unique id (see the link that Brian posted in the WIKI) ... itune has a very incoherent way of using this where as JRiver, Foobar, Media Monkey and other reputable player/taggers are much cleaner. ok IMO but I think most people will agree with me on this one.

And, what I meant by standard is when using multiple players or transferring from/to new or different ones ... use fields that exist in itunes, ID3v2+ AND Vorbis Comment. That way all the bases are covered so even if you see soloists in JRiver it is actually reading [Performer] so when writing a tag to a file the metadata will remain available in all/most players. Either they will be automatically show in JRiver or they can be remapped to show. If fields only exist in itunes, don't use them. (

I admit that I just don't use mp3s very much at all (except for a portable device or 2) and the ALBUM ARTIST field might be an actual "remapping" exception. So I'm going to start a new thread requesting the "Friendly" name equivalents -- this could help save some time with trial and error like for the TSo2 field.

so to be continued ... let us know how you get on (and maybe a dev can chime in if I'm making this more confusing than it should be )

Just a note or two:
- when creating a custom field, make sure in the tag window you configure it to be visible (little icon top left of window then "also show"). Also you would, arguably, want this tag that you are remapping to be written to the file so the little check box "write to file when possible should be checked. It certainly won't hurt. But would allow you to reimport into itunes if needed.
- mp3 file containers and wav file containers are really limited compared to flac or alac so if the metadata is critical to you in mp3, I'd use fields like comment or grouping which is visible everywhere

edit: post requesting friendly field equivalents https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=100957.0

[wburkett]

I realize we're talking at cross purposes a bit, because I'm stuck on mp3 for the time being and you're managing different kinds of music files.

==>so TSO2 is actually mapped from TXXX:ALBUMARTISTSORT .... note that in the tag dump window this shows up like TXXX (ALBUMARTISTSORT). It looks like many extended tags are remapped or stored to (depending on if JRiver does the tagging) to TXXX field names. My bad sorry.

Your tag dump shows a very different set of tags than my tag dump (see above, post of 10/17 and below).  My tag dump does show TSO2 and does not have TXXX tags. 

And, what I meant by standard is when using multiple players or transferring from/to new or different ones ... use fields that exist in itunes, ID3v2+ AND Vorbis Comment. That way all the bases are covered so even if you see soloists in JRiver it is actually reading [Performer] so when writing a tag to a file the metadata will remain available in all/most players. Either they will be automatically show in JRiver or they can be remapped to show.

You are saying before I start creating all my own custom fields (primarily for album-level data) to use fields that are common across standard tag sets.  Okay - makes sense.  When I select "Show All Tags", are these all the "standard tags" I have to work with?  How can I tell which of these would be "Save[d] in file tags (when possible)"?   The "when possible" leaves it very open ended and noncommittal, and I can't really know when a tag value can be written to file.

Sounds like i have two tasks:

(1) give a closer look to the tags in my mp3 files (with Mp3Tag) to determine exactly what tag values iTunes has put in those file and see what I can harvest.
(2) Determine exactly what "custom fields" I want and then make a plan for (a) mapping them to existing library fields or (b) creating new custom fields.

My project is going very slowly - busy with other things.  Thanks for your patience and help.  You all will probably see a flurry of help requests when I finally DO start to do the migration.   

Code: [Select]

MPEG-1 Layer 3
256 Kbit CBR
Stereo

Copyrighted: No
Original: No
Protected by CRC: Yes
Encoder: <unknown>
Gapless: No

ID3v1 Tag: none

ID3v2.3 Tag: (22461 bytes)
  TIT2 (Name): Blowin in the Wind
  TYER (Year): 1963
  COMM (Comment): vinyl rip
  TCON (Genre): Folk
  COMM (iTunNORM):  000001BB 0000020F 0000140B 00001104 0001ADB0 0001D4C0 000056A2 00005F17 0001D4C0 0001D4C0
  APIC (Image File) (0): <too large to display>
  TRCK (Track #): 1/13
  COMM (iTunPGAP): 1
  TPE1 (Artist): Bob Dylan
  TPE2 (Album Artist): Bob Dylan
  TALB (Album): The Freewheelin Bob Dylan
  TIT3 (Subtitle): <too large to display>
  TSOA (Album Sort): Freewheelin Bob Dylan
  TSOP (Artist Sort): Dylan, Bob
  TSO2: Dylan, Bob


[Arindelle]

I realize we're talking at cross purposes a bit, because I'm stuck on mp3 for the time being and you're managing different kinds of music files.

yes and no JRiver and other players have to be able to import different formats for different collections, peoples needs etc. Its normal that they get translated to a friendly name, otherwise you'd have to have multiple fields for the same information.

Your tag dump shows a very different set of tags than my tag dump (see above, post of 10/17 and below).  My tag dump does show TSO2 and does not have TXXX tags. 

hmm I see that now ... not sure I know why .. different rippers different versions of ID3??

How can I tell which of these would be "Save[d] in file tags (when possible)"?   The "when possible" leaves it very open ended and noncommittal, and I can't really know when a tag value can be written to file.

Basically all "data" fields can be written to the file. Date fields can be done, but the results can be funky ... different OS, regional problems etc. Calculation fields and relational fields (very limited .. never figured out how to get a relational tag to work btw) can't be written to the file with possible exception to fields that are hard coded by JRiver. List type fields, which are very handy, are a type of calculation field too.

Actually I've found a bunch of issues looking into this, but I think that Album Artist Sort is not always being imported even if my ripper is tagging the file with the metadata -- I think that the combo Album+Album Artist that creates a unique identifier is not allowing it, especially for mp3s ... can anyone confirm this??

[wburkett]

Boy - I'm learning a lot here.  There is SO MUCH that goes on "behind the scenes" wrt tag values and digital media library managers that we have NO visibility into.

Your comment, Arindelle, spurred me to look into what tags may be populated with values in my sample files.  I started adding fields in Mp3Tag just to see if the "Extended Fields" held any values.  What I discovered is really not surprising now that I've discovered it.  A couple of my sample albums were mistakenly ripped as MP4 (".m4a" files) encoded with "MPEG-4 AAC (iTunes 9.2.1, QuickTime 7.6.6)" codec.  As you recall: (1) I still use a very old version of iTunes; (2) I target mp3 as my encoding format; and (3) I use a lot of the fields on the iTunes video tab to store metadata values about music albums.   What I discovered is that iTunes 9.2 writes the video field values to the tags in MP4 files.  Like I said, this is not surprising but this is a good discovery.  It means that if I go through the effort of converting (not quite all) of the 2425 albums in my iTunes library to MP4, then I can recover the metadata I'd already entered!  Assuming, of course, that MC can get at those fields (a test I have yet to undertake.)

Addendum: I just did a test of converting an mp3 to an m4a.  Curiously, those video field values (which are in the converted m4a files) did not show up in Mp3Tag; nor, interestingly, did the subtitle value. I reripped as an mp4/m4a and the video field valuess DO show up in Mp3Tag.  Weirdness.

[Arindelle]

Boy - I'm learning a lot here.  There is SO MUCH that goes on "behind the scenes" wrt tag values and digital media library managers that we have NO visibility into.

I wouldn't get too worked up about it. Although iTunes is the only player I know where the music collection actually gets permanently messed with. It looks like you are starting to discover why ... Steer clear of that other than for syncing and you should be ok. Having an extra couple bytes from a dupe JRiver field will not be a bother nor will it affect the audio. tags are in the container part not the audio part of the file.

And imo JRiver is one of the best tagging tools around, certainly the most powerful if you spend the time to know how to use it (big learning curve I admit). FLAC have th most complete tag field options, then ALAC -- lossy formats and WAV files are more limited.

A bit of, maybe unsolicited, advice though. CONverting from lossy to other lossy formats should be avoided. Not saying you are doing this intentionally but to convert mp4 to mp3 is not a good idea. Already, having music in only mp3, there are "artifacts" that are permanently lost, but by re-converting to an mp4 container or vice-versa you can also suffer an additional "generational" loss. (not as bad a copyin a cassette copy to another cassette like back in the day, but you get the idea maybe). Going in and out of FLAC/ALAC or WAV is no issue - eg. you are in ALAC for Mac systems and you choose to convert to Flac and go back again -- no loss. Think "zip-files". If you are as serious about the music, as you are for your tags I hope you could  consider a lossless format for you archives/local playback and a copy in a lossy format if needed for your portable devices. Your tags can be great but if the sound quality gets degraded?? Personally, if this is not an option for you, I'd tag or retag or your collection and reimport manually to a recent version of itunes - using ti only for syncing (otherwise not at all)

for a couple hundred albums this is not a big deal, for 100K tracks this could be however... I'm aware. make sure your rippers/tagging programs are up to date especially the codecs for mp3/flac etc. and do not allow itunes to tag anymore for you or "optimize" the music (screws up the directories on your drives as an example).  You might be able to temporarily copy your subtitle field via itunes to another field like grouping -- import it afterwards in JRiver. Copy the info from all files to the field you want it in permanently via JRiver then euh cut bait with itunes (there is a simple expression to do this in one go.)

Might not be worth all the study behind mapping that way. And the end result would be standardized tags like you I think want??

[imeric]

How can I create a custom field that will show COMM (iTunNORM) for MP3 files?

I'm able to create an iTunNORM custom tag that will show the tag value for M4A ALAC files but I've tried all kinds of syntax and I'm unable to get it for the above...

What am I missing??

Thx