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[bblue]

Has there been any follow up to old discussions (I believe from MC19 days) of offering support of Cable Tuning Adaptors?  In this area (San Diego) you can't have cable on any kind of a remote receiver or 'media center' without a Tuning Adapter.  The Cable company here (Cox) supplies them for free, but you have to have them.

In the same vein, the plug-in authentication card for Ceton tuners (which is remotely controlled by Cable) and provides the authentication of any premium channels you wish to receive on that device.  Any plans for something like that?

OTA reception is not a solution here as more than 50% of our watching/recording is not product that is free on any OTA channel, like TNT, SciFI, FX, A&E, and many others.

Tivo's work well with the authentication cards and Tuning adapters, but if you have more than one Tivo, while you can watch one from another over your local in-house network, that does not include premium content, even if both Tivo's are authenticating.  Pretty stupid.

Microsoft's Media Center also works well with Ceton tuners, authentication cards and Tuning adaptors, but only from the host computer unless you use Ceton media extenders for each remote TV.  It's a little messy, but it works as a solution for multiple viewing sites from one host computer running Media Center.

But Media Center is gone as of Windows 10, and is rare in Windows 8.  To my knowledge there remains no solution to authentication and Tuning adapters.

We're using both methods in the house with one Tivo Roamio, and one Windows Media Center dedicated host computer (still in Windows 7 Pro) and several Ceton remotes.

And any computer using Windows Media Center cannot be upgraded beyond Windows 7 (or 8 if you were lucky enough to get it early).

Is JR even distantly considering such an expansion of support?  There's a big gaping hole there now.

We don't watch anything in real time, it's all recorded and watched when there's time.  So this is a big issue for us, as I'm sure it is for at least some others.

--Bill

[Castius]

I use cox with a hdhomerun with the cable card and there free receiver.
It is working ok for regular channels. But I don't pay for any premium channels. So I don't know about that. I thought the ceton are supported by jmc. So I would think they would be OK.

[bblue]

Last I heard the 4 tuner Ceton was but the external 6 tuner version was not.  And no premium channel support.  But I haven't been following for the last few months.

[greynolds]

The missing pieces for TV support are the ability to record and play the premium channels, such as HBO, that are marked as Copy Once and various limitations in the recording engine for setting up recordings.

As an example of the recording engine limitations, I have not been able to setup a search to record all Boston Bruins NHL hockey games for the current season without ending up recording a bunch of other repeat showings of recent games, historic games, and other special shows about the Bruins that I really don't want to record.  This same task is really simple to accomplish in Windows Media Center.  I've also had a lot of problems with MC recording the same episode of recent shows, such as Defiance, more than once, which is something that WMC also does properly.  If the MC team comes up with solutions for these 2 items, the recording engine will be in pretty good shape.

FWIW, I have used JRiver MC successfully with the Ceton 4 tuner PCIe card, the Ceton 6 tuner Ethernet tuner, and the SiliconDust 3 tuner CableCard tuners.  I haven't needed tuner adapters with my cable provider, but MC shouldn't need to worry about that, as it's handled by the drivers/software for the tuners.

[bblue]

Unfortunately, the media software DOES need to communicate with the Tuning Adaptors, via USB.  And it has to communicate with the authentication system (via a credit-card sized) card with what you are authorized to view according to the cable provider (those cards plug-in to the tuner, and Ceton supports them correctly, but it's a slave to the software).  And on top of all that, the issue of copy flags and user rights for each provider (show by show, even) still exists. 

Usually, when you are authenticated as a subscriber, you can record on that computer only, but you cannot play on any other machine (which would require a Media Extender to manage authentication for each remote viewing device.  Just like in WMC.  You can't even transfer the file in some cases.

--Bill

[greynolds]

Unfortunately, the media software DOES need to communicate with the Tuning Adaptors, via USB.  And it has to communicate with the authentication system (via a credit-card sized) card with what you are authorized to view according to the cable provider (those cards plug-in to the tuner, and Ceton supports them correctly, but it's a slave to the software).  And on top of all that, the issue of copy flags and user rights for each provider (show by show, even) still exists. 

Usually, when you are authenticated as a subscriber, you can record on that computer only, but you cannot play on any other machine (which would require a Media Extender to manage authentication for each remote viewing device.  Just like in WMC.  You can't even transfer the file in some cases.

--Bill

That's pretty much all incorrect or misleading information.

JRiver does not have to deal with the tuning adapter or CableCard at all.  Those tasks are handled by the tuner hardware and/or Ceton/SiliconDust drivers and software that exposes the tuners for use by the software.  JRiver just needs to get the list of channels from the tuner via the driver interface, it does not talk to the tuning adapter or CableCard directly at all.

Standard channels, such as USA Network, that are encrypted but not flagged as Copy Once, can be handled by JRiver just fine.  Premium channels, such as HBO, which are encrypted AND flagged as Copy Once cannot be played by JRiver.

Regarding the ability to playback only on the computer the show was recorded on, that only applies to shows that are flagged as Copy Once.  Standard channels, which are usually marked as Copy Freely can be played back on any computer and in any software that supports the file format they were recorded in.  Just as an example, I record TV shows from my CableCard tuners in Windows Media Center.  For all shows I record, other than those that are marked as Copy Once (such as shows on HBO), I can play those shows back in JRiver MC running on another PC.

Further, there's nothing preventing me from physically moving even Copy Once recordings to a different hard driver either on the same PC, on a different PC, a NAS, or any other storage device and continuing to play those files.  The only restriction is that Copy Once recordings can only be played by the PC that originally recorded them (either from the original storage location or a different storage location).

And further still, the solution that SiliconDust is working on for their new DVR software solution is said to allow the user to play recordings of Copy Once recordings on any supported device within your home network.  Due to strict limits on network latency for the copy protection, their solution may not allow a way to play Copy Once recordings from outside of your home, such as via an iPad from a hotel while away traveling.

Unfortunately, some cable TV providers flag pretty much everything as Copy Once.  If you're stuck with one of those providers, you're not going to be able to use JRiver for TV unless you use it only for what you can get OTA with an antenna.

[bblue]

But I'm not talking about minimally premium channels like USA or local stations.  I'm talking about 100% premium channels that you subscribe to.  So the info I stated isn't misleading, it has been taken out of context.

You're right that the Tuning Adapter USB connection is to the tuner, but that tuner may be internal to the computer as a plug-in card, thus the reference to the computer.  Electrically it's talking to the tuner, but the software is aware if there is a TA problem by its communication with the tuner, whether it be as a plug-in card or an external network tuner.  Just like it is fully aware of authentication problems though there is no direct connection to the tuner authentication mechanism.

The point is, in case you missed it, there isn't any support whatsoever for watching premium channels of any type on MC, and my question was whether or not there is some consideration for MC to support it.  If not, those looking for a Windows MC replacement will have to look elsewhere.

I'd much prefer to keep MC as my total center of media support, as it currently is for passive playback only of music and video.

--Bill

[greynolds]

But I'm not talking about minimally premium channels like USA or local stations.  I'm talking about 100% premium channels that you subscribe to.  So the info I stated isn't misleading, it has been taken out of context.

You're right that the Tuning Adapter USB connection is to the tuner, but that tuner may be internal to the computer as a plug-in card, thus the reference to the computer.  Electrically it's talking to the tuner, but the software is aware if there is a TA problem by its communication with the tuner, whether it be as a plug-in card or an external network tuner.  Just like it is fully aware of authentication problems though there is no direct connection to the tuner authentication mechanism.

The point is, in case you missed it, there isn't any support whatsoever for watching premium channels of any type on MC, and my question was whether or not there is some consideration for MC to support it.  If not, those looking for a Windows MC replacement will have to look elsewhere.

I'd much prefer to keep MC as my total center of media support, as it currently is for passive playback only of music and video.

--Bill

You weren't talking about only premium channels, such as HBO - you also referenced other channels that aren't premium such as USA. And once again, JRiver's software doesn't need to have any knowledge of the tuning adapter or the CableCard regardless of whether it's an internal PCIe card (such as the Ceton PCIe cards), a USB Tuner (such as Ceton's USB tuner) or an Ethernet tuner (such as Ceton's ETH model or the SiliconDust HDHomerun Prime).

Anyway, JRiver has made it pretty clear that they have no plans to add support for DRM due to a combination of cost and concerns over what complications introducing the required protected path would introduce into their software, potentially forcing them to remove some existing features that people care about.

For now, if support for channels with DRM is needed, you'll need to stick with WMC or switch to a non-PC solution such as TiVo or the cable company DVR.  The only other PC based option that is in the works is the DVR software that SiliconDust is currently working on, but that's currently in the very early stages, and it's unknown at this point if it will really be capable of replacing WMC when complete.

[bblue]

You weren't talking about only premium channels, such as HBO - you also referenced other channels that aren't premium such as USA. And once again, JRiver's software doesn't need to have any knowledge of the tuning adapter or the CableCard regardless of whether it's an internal PCIe card (such as the Ceton PCIe cards), a USB Tuner (such as Ceton's USB tuner) or an Ethernet tuner (such as Ceton's ETH model or the SiliconDust HDHomerun Prime).

What I wrote in my original message, in part, was "...is not product that is free on any OTA channel, like TNT, SciFI, FX, A&E, and many others."  I said nothing about USA because it is not considered a full premium channel.

Anyway, JRiver has made it pretty clear that they have no plans to add support for DRM due to a combination of cost and concerns over what complications introducing the required protected path would introduce into their software, potentially forcing them to remove some existing features that people care about.

Yes, that was the position a year or two ago.  I was asking if there had been any further consideration.  As usual, no reply.  JR: The courtesy of a response is frequently appreciated.

For now, if support for channels with DRM is needed, you'll need to stick with WMC or switch to a non-PC solution such as TiVo or the cable company DVR.  The only other PC based option that is in the works is the DVR software that SiliconDust is currently working on, but that's currently in the very early stages, and it's unknown at this point if it will really be capable of replacing WMC when complete.

Thanks.

--Bill

[dallasjustice]

Although Bill's point is burie in confusing verbiage, his point, I think, is that even a good cablecard with cablecard adapter like silicon dust isn't going to decode HBO. With regard to verizon Fios in my area, I've found that to be true for some time now. I've also found that to be true with Windows Media Center and JRiver. So the problem isn't the software.

In my case, it's only HBO which won't decode. Everything else is decoded with proper cablecard setup. I haven't tried other premium "movie channels".

[greynolds]

Although Bill's point is burie in confusing verbiage, his point, I think, is that even a good cablecard with cablecard adapter like silicon dust isn't going to decode HBO. With regard to verizon Fios in my area, I've found that to be true for some time now. I've also found that to be true with Windows Media Center and JRiver. So the problem isn't the software.

In my case, it's only HBO which won't decode. Everything else is decoded with proper cablecard setup. I haven't tried other premium "movie channels".

If HBO isn't working for you in Windows Media Center, then something isn't setup or permissioned properly, as you should be able to both record and play HBO in WMC.  Unless JRiver implements PlayReady (or equivalent - SiliconDust is going with a different DRM option), it will never be able to play HBO and other premium CableCard content and that is definitely a software limitation.

I understand JRiver's position on this, but it's too bad as it limits the ability for many people to replace WMC with JRiver.  It's not a big deal for me as we don't subscribe to any premium channels on our cable TV service - we wait for the free HBO weeks or just wait for the shows / movies to come out on Bluray or DVD and get them from Netflix.

[JimH]

I don't know if you understand JRiver's position.  We're not against implementing DRM.  We've done it.  We've also written our own DRM.  The problem is that the implementations and rules continue to change and so it's not clear that the cost benefit is good.

If we had demand from the Cablecard group or similar, we might consider it, but the cable companies don't seem happy with it and the content owners aren't easy to please, so for now, we'll wait and see.  We have plenty of other things to do where the market conditions are solid and secure.

[greynolds]

I don't know if you understand JRiver's position.  We're not against implementing DRM.  We've done it.  We've also written our own DRM.  The problem is that the implementations and rules continue to change and so it's not clear that the cost benefit is good.

If we had demand from the Cablecard group or similar, we might consider it, but the cable companies don't seem happy with it and the content owners aren't easy to please, so for now, we'll wait and see.  We have plenty of other things to do where the market conditions are solid and secure.

I have no idea how many WMC users there are who need support for premium channels with DRM or how many of those users would switch to MC if it had support for them, but if you guys are serious about JRiver MC being a real replacement for WMC, then implementation of one of the DRM options to provide a protected path for premium channels is that one big piece that's missing.

The cable companies may not be happy with CableCard, but it also isn't going to disappear any time soon.  The longer you wait, the less return you'll get on the investment of supporting it...

[rudyrednose]

Sometimes, the issue is not only technical but also legal.

Sure I would like working blu-ray menus, but not at the cost of having a pile of previews and warnings force fed upon me, which would be mandatory for JRiver to do if they signed up to the blu-ray alliance...
For what I understand of it, the Cablecard/DRM/Copy Once etc. is also a legal minefield !

[bblue]

I have no idea how many WMC users there are who need support for premium channels with DRM or how many of those users would switch to MC if it had support for them, but if you guys are serious about JRiver MC being a real replacement for WMC, then implementation of one of the DRM options to provide a protected path for premium channels is that one big piece that's missing.

I don't have any numbers either, but the Premium channels are moving in a big way to significant market share with their programming.  Some are doing all movies like HBO and Showtime channels (there are many of them).  The premium services like AMC, TNT, FX, SciFi, History and a whole bunch of others are literally in direct competition with OTA stations and major old-school networks like ABC, NBC, CBS and FOX.  The content is varied and generally very good quality, and of course, are all producing all-HD content.  If you have any viewing experience with these services, you know how significant the growth has been, as well as the content getting better and better.  It's definitely a market to service with cablecard support.

The cable companies may not be happy with CableCard, but it also isn't going to disappear any time soon.  The longer you wait, the less return you'll get on the investment of supporting it...

I agree here too.  I'm not so sure about cable companies not being happy with CableCard.  I can see the likes of Comcast and a couple of others not liking to comply with it, but those like Cox Cable have embraced it, realizing that it only reduces their profit from DVR rentals, other revenues stay the same.  From Cox, the cablecards are only $2 per month, and they have great support for configuring and authentication problems in various hardware not of their own.  I have four of them, two in Tivo's, two in WMC systems used throughout the house.  At only an additional $8 per month you can have all your cable content delivered as you like.  Very good.

For clarification, the cable-supplied Tuning Adapters are for the most part, their requirement to move to SDV (switched digital video).  What it does is control what specific channels are delivered to a particular neighborhood's head-end.  Each time a channel is selected to watch, the tuning adapter sends a request to the company to deliver that channel to the appropriate head-end.  When there are no viewers, that channel is dropped.  The whole process is invisible to the viewer, and allows more programming choices to be delivered to a headend, based on requests, rather than the cable company having to send all channels all the time.  It saves a lot of bandwidth, and increases availability of content.

The side effect is that the internal or external tuner that connects to one, must have a a USB port to interface to it.  And the software used by the viewer needs to be aware of messages from the TA about its connect status.

But as greynolds says, none of it is going away anytime soon.  When you think about it, it's all because of demand by the public for the premium content, and the need to control and support the necessary bandwidth to deliver it.

It's all a real win for the consumer.

Jim, I hope you will review all this in detail.  I can't imagine a way support of this wouldn't work in JR's interest.

--Bill

[mwillems]

The premium services like AMC, TNT, FX, SciFi, History and a whole bunch of others are literally in direct competition with OTA stations[... ]

All these channels currently work in MC with a cablecard tuner in my market.  I record things off of SciFi all the time.  It's literally only HBO/Showtime that aren't supported where I am, all other cable channels work great with a cablecard tuner.

Have you tried actually using MC's TV functionality with your tuners?  You might be pleasantly surprised.

I think what's confusing everyone is that AMC, TNT, FX, and SciFi are all basic cable channels in a lot of markets (not "premium" in that you don't have to pay extra for them, they just come bundled with any cable service, unlike HBO).  With my cable company (and several others) the only channels that are DRMed in a way that MC doesn't support are things like HBO, Showtime, Cinemax, etc.  Your provider may do things differently, but that's not necessarily typical.

[bblue]

All these channels currently work in MC with a cablecard tuner in my market.  I record things off of SciFi all the time.  It's literally only HBO/Showtime that aren't supported where I am, all other cable channels work great with a cablecard tuner.

Have you tried actually using MC's TV functionality with your tuners?  You might be pleasantly surprised.

No, not lately.  That's why I was asking about it.  It didn't work then and was so adamantly dismissed the last time I had asked, it didn't occur to try it.  I wonder, then, why JimH didn't say so earlier in the thread?

When you say HBO/Showtime "that aren't supported where I am", do you mean not at all by a subscriber with the right gear, or is that specific to MC?  If not specific to MC, then logically I should be able to get them here too.

Thanks I'll give it a try and see what happens.

--Bill

[mwillems]

No, not lately.  That's why I was asking about it.  It didn't work then and was so adamantly dismissed the last time I had asked, it didn't occur to try it.  I wonder, then, why JimH didn't say so earlier in the thread?

I have no idea, but I think it's because of confusion over your use of the term premium to refer to basic cable channels (which aren't typically protected).  

MC does have a limitation with regard to certain DRM'ed channels.  Specifically, MC can't display or record "copy once" or "copy never" content, but can readily display and record "copy freely" content.  What gets marked "copy once" or "copy freely" depends partly on the content provider and partly on the cable company.  Verizon marks everything copy freely except true premium channels like HBO and Showtime.  So do the other cable providers in my area (Comcast, etc.).  Some cable companies in other markets do different things (I've heard Time Warner is particularly bad).

When you say HBO/Showtime "that aren't supported where I am", do you mean not at all by a subscriber with the right gear, or is that specific to MC?  If not specific to MC, then logically I should be able to get them here too.

With an HDHomerun cablecard tuner and an HBO subscription, I couldn't view or record HBO content with MC (ditto Showtime, etc.).  This was when I briefly had those channels a year or so ago (I don't have them anymore because I can't watch them). Folks with a conventional DVR/PVR might be able to record them, I have no idea, I don't use one.  

I've never used a computer cable TV solution other than MC (I didn't have cable at all for about ten years between 2003 and 2013), so I'm not sure what "other options" might be.  My understanding is that none of the other options (apart from WMC) actually support this kind of decoding.  HDHomerun is working on something though.

[greynolds]

With an HDHomerun cablecard tuner and an HBO subscription, I couldn't view or record HBO content with MC (ditto Showtime, etc.).  This was when I briefly had those channels a year or so ago (I don't have them anymore because I can't watch them). Folks with a conventional DVR/PVR might be able to record them, I have no idea, I don't use one.  

I've never used a computer cable TV solution other than MC (I didn't have cable at all for about ten years between 2003 and 2013), so I'm not sure what "other options" might be.  My understanding is that none of the other options (apart from WMC) actually support this kind of decoding.  HDHomerun is working on something though.

Windows Media Center, Tivo, and DVR's from the cable provider can all handle recording and playing the premium (copy once) channels.  SiliconDust's DVR software is also supposed to support this at some point (as you mention), but doesn't yet.

I also forgot to mention earlier today that the funding that SiliconDust received in the Kickstarter campaign for their DVR software certainly suggests that there is a large amount of interest in a DVR software solution to replace WMC that includes support for Copy Once content.

Regarding the legal references that were made a few posts back, I don't believe that's really an issue for adding DRM support for Copy Once content.  AFAIK, it's mostly a cost issue (and obviously would require JRiver to divert some development resources away from other tasks).  Though I would like to see them add it and would be willing to donate a reasonable premium to the cause to support it, I would (selfishly) rather see them devote more effort to improving the recording engine to address the items I mentioned in my earlier post (and some other functionality to take it a few steps further) since I don't currently subscribe to any premium channels that would take advantage of support for Copy Once content.

[Yaobing]

Basically, MC will only play channels marked as Copy freely.  How the channels are marked (i.e. whether they are encrypted) depends on your cable company.  With Comcast in my area I can watch most of the channels except those like HBO and so on.  Other cable companies may do it differently.

[bblue]

If this is the case, nothing has changed since I last tried MC with a Ceton tuner equipped with a cablecard authorized for about everything HD except sports channels.  I will still check again, to be sure, but it probably can't be until this weekend.

I think there is a general misconception about what a premium channel is.  Anything that you can receive on cable that is in a category or grouping as being 'basic service', is not a preimium channel (though there are individual premium channels that may be included in certain startup packages).  Almost all of those that you pay additional for are premium.  A small fraction of the basic subscription packages are set Copy Freely.  I believe there are about 12-15 in that category here, encrypted or not (up to cable company, as that is a delivery option).  Of about 300 other channels which are part of various premium packages, they're all encrypted, but a paying subscriber does have play and record capabilities on the device (hardware and software) to which the cablecard is authenticated.  The copy/record flags control how far you can go with playing and recording, and are set per channel for the paying subscriber.

Though you can receive local channels OTA, also receiving them via cable is usually part of your basic subscription, and are copy freely.

You cannot receive and decrypt any 'premium' channel that isn't part of a plus package that you are subscribed to, and that cannot be done without a cablecard (in most areas) authenticated with hardware and software that it is tied to.

Apparently at least some of the folks here have little or no real experience with the premium channels I've been referring to.  I'll provide a list of those shortly.

--Bill

[zombie-wmd]

The cable companies may not be happy with CableCard, but it also isn't going to disappear any time soon.  The longer you wait, the less return you'll get on the investment of supporting it...

greetings -

A very spirited discussion.  It's my understanding that Congress forced cable companies to supply the CableCard solution and that that legislation is no longer in effect, was abrogated by the net neutrality acts or simply expired on its own accord.  If that's true, you can bet the CableCard solution will be 'going to disappear anytime soon'.

Discussion?

[JimH]

Here's the CableCard topic on Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CableCARD

[greynolds]

If this is the case, nothing has changed since I last tried MC with a Ceton tuner equipped with a cablecard authorized for about everything HD except sports channels.  I will still check again, to be sure, but it probably can't be until this weekend.

I think there is a general misconception about what a premium channel is.  Anything that you can receive on cable that is in a category or grouping as being 'basic service', is not a preimium channel (though there are individual premium channels that may be included in certain startup packages).  Almost all of those that you pay additional for are premium.  A small fraction of the basic subscription packages are set Copy Freely.  I believe there are about 12-15 in that category here, encrypted or not (up to cable company, as that is a delivery option).  Of about 300 other channels which are part of various premium packages, they're all encrypted, but a paying subscriber does have play and record capabilities on the device (hardware and software) to which the cablecard is authenticated.  The copy/record flags control how far you can go with playing and recording, and are set per channel for the paying subscriber.

Though you can receive local channels OTA, also receiving them via cable is usually part of your basic subscription, and are copy freely.

You cannot receive and decrypt any 'premium' channel that isn't part of a plus package that you are subscribed to, and that cannot be done without a cablecard (in most areas) authenticated with hardware and software that it is tied to.

Apparently at least some of the folks here have little or no real experience with the premium channels I've been referring to.  I'll provide a list of those shortly.

--Bill

For the purpose of not hopelessly confusing everyone, when CableCard support is being discussed for software such as JRiver MC, the term "premium" is almost always reserved only for channels (or more accurately, programs) that are flagged as Copy Once, which is usually limited to channels such as HBO and Showtime.  For this purpose, anything flagged as "Copy Freely" is not a premium channel.

Once again, for MOST cable subscribers, all channels are going to be encrypted, but only some channels, such as HBO, will be marked as Copy Once.  The CableCard takes care of decrypting all of the channels that the customer is subscribed to.  At this point, it comes done to whether the channel is flagged as Copy Freely, Copy Once, or (pretty rarely) Copy Never.  MC can handle channels that are flagged as Copy Freely and for most people, this will include most of their cable channels, including channels like A&E, TNT, USA, ESPN, SciFi, Discovery, and so on.  If you're referring to channels such as A&E, SciFi, and so on as premium, I can assure you that I have lots of experience with them and am able to record and play them just fine with both WMC and JRiver MC.

Channels that are not encrypted don't even require a CableCard and can be tuned with a ClearQAM tuner.  Those channels will almost always be marked as Copy Freely, I don't recall ever hearing about any being marked as anything else.

Some cable TV providers flag just about everything as Copy Once, and it sounds like that might be your situation, but that's not the case for most people.  If that is how your cable provider works, then that stinks - if you have the option of trying another provider, it might be worth considering switching.

Note that the copy flags can be set differently for each show, so it is possible for some shows on a channel to be marked Copy Freely and other shows to be marked Copy Once, but that's not very common either.

[mwillems]

For the purpose of not hopelessly confusing everyone, when CableCard support is being discussed for software such as JRiver MC, the term "premium" is almost always reserved only for channels (or more accurately, programs) that are flagged as Copy Once, which is usually limited to channels such as HBO and Showtime.  For this purpose, anything flagged as "Copy Freely" is not a premium channel.

Once again, for MOST cable subscribers, all channels are going to be encrypted, but only some channels, such as HBO, will be marked as Copy Once.  The CableCard takes care of decrypting all of the channels that the customer is subscribed to.  At this point, it comes done to whether the channel is flagged as Copy Freely, Copy Once, or (pretty rarely) Copy Never.  MC can handle channels that are flagged as Copy Freely and for most people, this will include most of their cable channels, including channels like A&E, TNT, USA, ESPN, SciFi, Discovery, and so on.  If you're referring to channels such as A&E, SciFi, and so on as premium, I can assure you that I have lots of experience with them and am able to record and play them just fine with both WMC and JRiver MC.

Exactly.  I have access to about 300 cable channels through my cable subscription and they're all marked copy freely, and I can normally record all of them (including Sci Fi, TNT, AMC, etc.) using a CableCARD tuner with MC.  There's another 100 or so that I could pay extra to get, but I wouldn't be able to record some of those (HBO, Showtime). The lack of ability to record them is because they are marked copy once, not because they are "premium."

Note that the copy flags can be set differently for each show, so it is possible for some shows on a channel to be marked Copy Freely and other shows to be marked Copy Once, but that's not very common either.

This recently happened with a debate a few weeks ago.  It was aired on a channel that's normally copy freely, but that specific show was copy once, which was a bummer (had to watch it online).  That's the only case I can recall of something like that happening to me personally.

[Yaobing]

A small fraction of the basic subscription packages are set Copy Freely.

This is not true for a lot of us.  As I said earlier, this depends on which cable company you are with.  For me it is the opposite.  It is not just those OTA channels that are Copy Freely.  A whole lot of other channels are too.

[bblue]

I've attached a list of channels from our local Cox cable, here in San Diego.  This list only includes HD channels (as I don't watch the SD ones at all), and does not include radio channels, music channels or sports channels (except those listed which are part of a non-sports package).

As I suspected, and yaobing confirmed, with MC I can only view 1002 through 1011 which are local channels, and perhaps one or two others.  I spot checked a number of the premium channels that I watch, AMC, Animal Planet, Discovery, FX, History, MTV, TNT, Weather Channel and a few others.  They all provide just a blank screen and no audio.  When I use the Ceton diagnostics program each of those are labeled as encrypted, copy once (I believe) and the ones I can view are called Clear.  Of course on Windows Media Center I can view/record all of them normally.

Also, in looking around on Ceton's site I found this little tidbit:

There are currently no alternatives to Windows Media Center for CableCARD protected content on your PC. It's not a question of Ceton supporting other DVR platforms, all CableCARD tuners are required to use the DRI specification from CableLabs. This freely-available specification allows DVR software packages to control CableCARD tuners and access copy-freely content.  To access Copy Once content the DVR software must implement a CableLabs-approved form of copy protection, typically WM-DRM from Microsoft.  This is why MythTV, Sage TV, XMBC, etc. do not support protected content.

These companies are free to implement copy-protection, and no development or support is required from Ceton to enable protected content in DVR software which comply with the CableLabs specification. These software developers would have to work with the encryption vendors, support guide data, and pay licensing fees to implement the required encryption and meet the legal requirements surrounding DVR software and CableCARD technology in their products.

Thank you,

Ceton Support

--Bill

[Yaobing]

Again, it becomes pointless arguing which channels are considered "premium".  As I stated earlier, how many channels you can watch without MC supporting copy-once depends on which cable company you use.  For you, AMC, Animal Planet, Discovery, FX, History, MTV, TNT, Weather Channel are not available, but for me they all are.

We are aware of the info you copied from Ceton.  As Jim stated, it is a cost vs. benefit consideration.  That is what holding us back.  When we decide that it is worth the effort, we will then do it.

[hawaii2k]

I know how bblue feels because we're in the same boat. TWC imposes copy once flags on nearly all its non-local/OTA channels and nothing but WMC will let me watch or record these channels. I've upgraded to Windows 10 and just the other day someone released a tweaked version of WMC that actually works except I wasn't able to get it to download the guide so I can't use it as a DVR.

Whatever.

For now, I'm using MC 21 to record the local news and Jeopardy! and until J River decides the benefit outweighs the cost or until some other software with this capability comes  along, what can I do? For what it's worth, I'd be willing to pay twice as much for MC for this feature. But there probably aren't enough people in this boat to care, much less pay what it would cost. 

[Gustovier]

Again, it becomes pointless arguing which channels are considered "premium".  As I stated earlier, how many channels you can watch without MC supporting copy-once depends on which cable company you use.  For you, AMC, Animal Planet, Discovery, FX, History, MTV, TNT, Weather Channel are not available, but for me they all are.

We are aware of the info you copied from Ceton.  As Jim stated, it is a cost vs. benefit consideration.  That is what holding us back.  When we decide that it is worth the effort, we will then do it.

I think it's highly worth it.  But I think the faster and cheaper solution involves using DTCP-IP with the silicon dust cable card tuners.  The downside is that this would not work with Ceton tuners.  If you all implemented this you would get a pretty significant  influx of new customers .

[codpiece]

In an effort to be heard, I would gladly pay additional money for the ability of MC to handle copy-once channels.  I recently moved to an area where the cable company has flagged many channels (including ESPN) as copy-once.  This has forced me to have to incorporate WMC back into the fold, and this has greatly impacting ease of use and control for my family.

Previously, I was in a Comcast area and they only flagged the premium movie channels.  I was happily using MC for all my cablecard tv needs for the past 2 years.  It was great.  Now, I'm stuck.  I am hopeful for MC to either decide to support copy-once (and would gladly pay extra) or for them to work with Silicon Dust's new DVR plugin/service kickstarter.

[echo14612]

I'm in the same boat as all the other Time Warner customers with Cable Cards.  Virtually every channel is flagged "copy once" and can be recorded and played back only with Windows Media Center.  I would think JRiver's potential customer base would be everybody which has such a set up. 

[JimH]

We hope to solve this in the next few months.  We can't promise anything until we're further along.

[hawaii2k]

We hope to solve this in the next few months.  We can't promise anything until we're further along.

Awesome. Mahalo for trying.

[macallan18]

We hope to solve this in the next few months.  We can't promise anything until we're further along.

I created a forum account (have already purchased JRiver) to thank you and encourage you to continue this.  I hate all the DVRs I have used.  WMC is the only thing that lets me record HBO, and I would love to see JRiver replace WMC in my living room (and bedroom, and any other room with a TV).