Topic: Different audio sound playing flac using MC21 vs MC19 (Read 16203 times)

barrytillis · « **on:** October 26, 2015, 08:35:04 pm »

I am unable to setup MC21 to sound anything like my old version of MC19..MC21 plays Flac files poorly..Any suggestions would be appreciated..I have gone back to MC19

AndrewFG · « **Reply #1 on:** October 27, 2015, 01:15:44 am »

Output connection type (USB, DLNA, etc.). Transcoding. DSP. Volume leveling. ..

barrytillis · « **Reply #2 on:** October 27, 2015, 07:18:20 am »

All of my settings appear to be the same in MC21 as in MC19.There is a noticeable sound degrading and noise on quiet passages in MC21 that I do not hear in MC19.My Friend noticed a problem with later corrections in MC20 and went back to an earlier version.If I have a setting wrong, I would appreciate any help. I can live and enjoy MC19, just do not have installed on latest computer

Spike1000 · « **Reply #3 on:** October 27, 2015, 07:28:42 am »

It would really help if you described in detail "Output connection type (USB, DLNA, etc.). Transcoding." as AndrewFG mentioned . .

You have more than one PC so you have either swapped the audio equipment from one to another, have more than one USB DAC for example or are streaming from two versions of MC on two PCs to the same audio equipment. . . The fix/problem will depend on how exactly you have things connected up from end to end in the entire chain. . .

Spike

barrytillis · « **Reply #4 on:** October 27, 2015, 09:26:18 am »

I have both versions of media center on the same computer..There has been no changes in the hardware. I can play MC19 and the music sounds good.I turn on MC21 and the sound quality is not the same

Spike1000 · « **Reply #5 on:** October 27, 2015, 10:36:26 am »

Quote from: barrytillis on October 27, 2015, 09:26:18 am

I have both versions of media center on the same computer..There has been no changes in the hardware. I can play MC19 and the music sounds good.I turn on MC21 and the sound quality is not the same

So are you playing through headphones plugged into the PC, a USB DAC, DNLA, HDMI receiver etc etc? Without describing the hardware audio chain it's impossible to say where/what you should look at for differences in the config. . . . . ?

Spike

barrytillis · « **Reply #6 on:** October 27, 2015, 11:19:01 am »

The problem is not the hardware..the only change is that MC 21 does not play the same audio quality in my system with flac files..There is some change in the software of MC21 or i have an incorrect setting. Both programs are on the same computer and go into the same hardware. Could there be an install problem with MC21 and I need to reinstall it?

ssands · « **Reply #7 on:** October 27, 2015, 11:45:24 am »

Just spitballing here, but could it be the WDM driver?

Can you check and make sure the audio driver is the same in both installs?

barrytillis · « **Reply #8 on:** October 27, 2015, 11:56:05 am »

I will when I arrive home

Spike1000 · « **Reply #9 on:** October 27, 2015, 03:28:35 pm »

Quote from: barrytillis on October 27, 2015, 11:19:01 am

The problem is not the hardware..

I was referring to the config of MC (21) not the hardware. . .

Spike

barrytillis · « **Reply #10 on:** October 27, 2015, 08:43:11 pm »

I checked both of the setups for MC19 and MC21 and all of the settings are identical.. I may try reinstalling the program to see if that will improve the audio quality

blgentry · « **Reply #11 on:** October 27, 2015, 08:48:52 pm »

Have you checked:

1. Audio driver type: WASAPI versus ASIO , etc
2. DSP Studio Output Format settings. Sample rate conversion is the big one.
3. DSP Studio Volume Leveling, Adaptive Volume, Parametric EQ, Effects, etc. All of these can dramatically affect the sound.
4. Are you bypassing the windows system mixer on both MC19 and MC21? This really goes with #1 above, but it's worth asking as it can adversely impact sound quality.

Brian.

barrytillis · « **Reply #12 on:** October 28, 2015, 09:54:53 am »

I will recheck the settings of the two programs..At this point the settings appear identical

kstuart · « **Reply #13 on:** October 29, 2015, 12:09:52 pm »

It would be helpful to know specifics:

* Which DAC ?
* ASIO or WASAPI or Direct Sound or ?
* Are these FLAC files 16/44.1 or are they High Res ?
* In Output Format, does everything say "No Change" or are there conversions ?

barrytillis · « **Reply #14 on:** October 29, 2015, 01:48:51 pm »

Teac 501 dac using supplied teac driver. Flac files range from 16 to 22 bits/44..MC21 does not work with Teac driver? while MC 19 does?

barrytillis · « **Reply #15 on:** October 29, 2015, 01:50:52 pm »

Teac driver is ASIO..not sure about output question

kstuart · « **Reply #16 on:** October 29, 2015, 09:05:35 pm »

My personal recommendation is to sell the Teac DAC, lol. A great example of excellent specs and mediocre sound.

ssands · « **Reply #17 on:** October 30, 2015, 12:02:30 am »

Quote from: barrytillis on October 29, 2015, 01:50:52 pm

Teac driver is ASIO..not sure about output question

I think KStuart means this:
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Audio_Path

It will indicate whether MC is performing any processing on the audio. Always a good to check.

Trumpetguy · « **Reply #18 on:** October 30, 2015, 04:42:34 am »

Quote from: barrytillis on October 26, 2015, 08:35:04 pm

I am unable to setup MC21 to sound anything like my old version of MC19..MC21 plays Flac files poorly..Any suggestions would be appreciated..I have gone back to MC19

Even if you specifically states that MC21 does not play anything near MC19, could you elaborate a bit around what differences you actually hear? Does it sound like something is broken, or in the other end of the scale - are the differences subtle changes in audio quality?

barrytillis · « **Reply #19 on:** October 30, 2015, 08:30:36 am »

the output states up sampled to 24/384.The sound is less lively with a slight popping sound on some quiet passages.I use the same setup with the Teac dac and MC19 and i do not hear these audio changes. i use jrivers on 2 other audio setups with different dacs and i donot hear the dramatic changes between the 2 MC programs. The sound is better on both setups with MC 19 program. Is it possible i have a bad install of the MC21 program? I only hear the changes playing Flac. My DSF rips sound fine

Trumpetguy · « **Reply #20 on:** October 30, 2015, 09:31:16 am »

Sorry, but I find your statements a bit contradictory, first:

Quote from: barrytillis on October 30, 2015, 08:30:36 am

the output states up sampled to 24/384.The sound is less lively with a slight popping sound on some quiet passages.I use the same setup with the Teac dac and MC19 and i do not hear these audio changes.

then yo write something I easily could interprete as the opposite:

Quote from: barrytillis on October 30, 2015, 08:30:36 am

i use jrivers on 2 other audio setups with different dacs and i donot hear the dramatic changes between the 2 MC programs.

It would probably help understanding what you have tried if you made these statements more clear.

You are obviously using upsampling:

Quote from: barrytillis on October 30, 2015, 08:30:36 am

the output states up sampled to 24/384.The sound is less lively with a slight popping sound on some quiet passages.

You could, for sake of testing, try and play flac files at their native sample rate if your dac allows it. In both MC19 and 21. Are you sure you are playing at the same level inboth programs. Did you apply Volume Levelling DSP, and did you analyze all your media files to populate the R128 metadata field?

barrytillis · « **Reply #21 on:** October 30, 2015, 01:24:54 pm »

The output says resampled from 44 to 384. I have 3 different systems with 3 different Dacs. My main system uses a Teac Dac with Magnepan speakers. My second system uses a Ps audio Dac with B&W speakers. On both of these systems using MC21 I notice a sound degrading, not as clear or detailed sound. The sound degrading is worse with the Teac Dac. Both systems sound excelent using MC 19. I will reinstall MC 21 if this will improve the audio playback. At this point, I feel that there was change in MC 21 that affects the audio quality. Has anyone else noticed this changes. I will continue to use MC 19.

Spike1000 · « **Reply #22 on:** October 30, 2015, 01:42:24 pm »

What did playing a FLAC file at its native sample rate reveal or haven't you done this test yet?

Hint: If you don't know how to do this:

Tools | Options | Audio | DSP & output format. . . | Sample Rate

Spike

Trumpetguy · « **Reply #23 on:** October 30, 2015, 02:12:27 pm »

Quote from: barrytillis on October 30, 2015, 01:24:54 pm

The output says resampled from 44 to 384. I have 3 different systems with 3 different Dacs. My main system uses a Teac Dac with Magnepan speakers. My second system uses a Ps audio Dac with B&W speakers. On both of these systems using MC21 I notice a sound degrading, not as clear or detailed sound. The sound degrading is worse with the Teac Dac. Both systems sound excelent using MC 19. I will reinstall MC 21 if this will improve the audio playback. At this point, I feel that there was change in MC 21 that affects the audio quality. Has anyone else noticed this changes. I will continue to use MC 19.

So, everything you say so far points in the direction of subtle differences, reducing the probability of something broken.
But you still haven't really documented that the audio path is the same for the two versions. And I would point out again that you should switch off as many intermediate steps as possible (such as upsampling) when doing the first comparison, then add one by one and test in each step.

Also, if Volume Levelling is on, and MC19 uses Replay Gain and MC21 is using R128, audio level will be different and higher level is almost always percieved as 'better sounding' (i.e. you will not be comparing apples to apples).

I think devs or someone with detailed tech ability and good memory will need to tell what has happened to the audio engine between 19 and 21. What comes to mind, but I do not remember the time of implementation for all of these, are:

32 to 64bit audio engine (when?)
Changes on how playback from memory is handled (when?)
Different dithering (TPDF has just been added to MC21)
other things?

Arindelle · « **Reply #24 on:** October 30, 2015, 02:51:14 pm »

Quote from: Trumpetguy on October 30, 2015, 02:12:27 pm

I think devs or someone with detailed tech ability and good memory will need to tell what has happened to the audio engine between 19 and 21. What comes to mind, but I do not remember the time of implementation for all of these, are:
32 to 64bit audio engine (when?)
Changes on how playback from memory is handled (when?)
Different dithering (TPDF has just been added to MC21)
other things?

yes but dither choices and 64bit engine is just going to make the output the same or better. What did change though is the configuration by zone. The OP talks about his equipment, but I bet its the configuration that is not the same as it is now entirely zone dependant. Even if he has only zone (not likely with three systems right?) there's no detail of the JR configurations -- unless I missed something, all that I read is he hasn't changed anything.

I don't think all settings will be ported over automatically when jumping to 21 from 19 -- might be wrong but, again, can't tell as his JRiver config is not detailed by zone/device. Some of these settings were general ones un 19 and now I'm guessing he has three separate audio configs .. something slight like one being set to system volume instead of an ASIO driver or WASAPI could change things. So if he didn't go into all his options for each output device, it could be as simple as that, no ??

Of course a test should be made with no volume leveling, correction, etc as you guys already mentioned.

mojave · « **Reply #25 on:** October 30, 2015, 02:57:05 pm »

Quote

think devs or someone with detailed tech ability and good memory will need to tell what has happened to the audio engine between 19 and 21. What comes to mind, but I do not remember the time of implementation for all of these, are:

32 to 64bit audio engine (when?) - MC 15.0.96 - 8/13/2010
Changes on how playback from memory is handled (when?) - MC 19.0.03 - 6/21/13
Different dithering (TPDF has just been added to MC21) - but isn't the default
other things?

barrytillis · « **Reply #26 on:** October 30, 2015, 06:09:59 pm »

please explain what zone dependent means..i have compared all of the settings on both MC19 and MC21 and they are the same..i have both programs installed on the same computer and mc19 sounds excellent and mc 21 does not..What has changed to cause this or what setting sould i check?

kstuart · « **Reply #27 on:** October 30, 2015, 08:39:11 pm »

First, change the Output Format, Sample Rate settings to "No change" for all the sample rates on MC19 and MC21. Then compare. (that is what other people were calling Native Rate playback)

Second, people who own PS Audio DACs usually laugh at people who own Teac DACs, but hopefully, you don't have a split personality, so that won't be happening.

Blaine78 · « **Reply #28 on:** October 30, 2015, 09:20:03 pm »

Quote from: barrytillis on October 30, 2015, 01:24:54 pm

The output says resampled from 44 to 384. I have 3 different systems with 3 different Dacs. My main system uses a Teac Dac with Magnepan speakers. My second system uses a Ps audio Dac with B&W speakers. On both of these systems using MC21 I notice a sound degrading, not as clear or detailed sound. The sound degrading is worse with the Teac Dac. Both systems sound excelent using MC 19. I will reinstall MC 21 if this will improve the audio playback. At this point, I feel that there was change in MC 21 that affects the audio quality. Has anyone else noticed this changes. I will continue to use MC 19.

Hi Barrytillis.
I too have gone back to using V19.0.163 (the last and latest V19), as V20 and V21 just don't sound as good--less lively, slight hardness to the sound. It's subtle, but enough to go back to V19. The settings are identical on both versions, No DSP or volume, it's all direct. Music is stored as APE lossless audio files, but it's the same with FLAC. There were changes to the Memory Playback since V19, but switching this On or Off doesn't help. ASIO or WASPI, no help either. Dithering set to off, as I use a good third party plugin, but using JRiver's dithering or TPDF doesn't help either. V19 just sounds better, I've mentioned this a few times on this forum.