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[orangeart]

The last few times I have updated MC for both the last few versions of 20 and all the versions of 21 I get an odd bug where after the update the audio coming over the WDM driver is about 2 seconds delayed from the video. Things are still fine for the files played directly through the MC interface though. This also happens if I try and switch on JRSS downmixing. If I create a new zone everything is restored to working order. The problem I have is that I have a VERY large DSP setup with multiple filters for 8 channels, with delay, shelving blah blah and it takes me half an hour to re input them every time. I can't just open a saved set of filters as they bring this added delay with them. I had thought it was a bug with the WDM driver that would be fixed when the other problems with that were fixed.

Assuming this is a separate bug and is somehow held in the file that hold the filters, could this be looked at?

Does anyone else have this problem?

[orangeart]

Nobody else suffers with this bug then I guess?

Dev team has this been reported by anyone else?

Stefan

[pauly139]

Hi - I experience this too. After trying to fix it for a while I gave up and now just switch back to direct playback devices when I watch video on the PC concerned.

Rgds
Paul

[RoderickGI]

I see significant lip sync problems when using the WDM Driver on my HTPC, with audio lagging video by about two seconds. But I haven't tried to diagnose the problem for a while, and I haven't set up a specific Zone for Video with the WDM Driver. So I can't say I exactly see the problem you have.

It isn't just that the Buffer and Latency settings for your output device are being lost, is it? Rather than the whole Zone being lost, or its DSP settings.

[orangeart]

Yeah it's an one. Definately not just the latency settings. I'm well on top of those. I was hoping it was a big that others had had so that the devs could take a look.

[terrym@tassie]

I'm still seeing this issue as well, update from .17 to .23, 2 second lag on WDM driver.
I have to deselect WDM driver from the updated version and then reapply the update directly from the update executable (over the existing .23 update in this case).
I then re-enable WDM and the sync is perfect again.
It seems to be that the existing driver (.17 release in this case) does not get correctly uninstalled/reinstalled as I didn't get the 2 second lag until I restarted the system after the .17 to .23 update.
This issue is not related to Windows releases as I used to get it with Windows 7 before I updated to Windows 10.
I can confirm @Orangeart's observation that it started somewhere late in MC20 releases.
If I can provide any other info to try and track this down I'll be happy to help.

[Arindelle]

hmm this has happened to me, but running the exe file and reinstalling seems to sort it out with messing with my zones.

The only time this has happens is when the program auto updates. If I'm not around for the windows admin confirm for the driver, it seems that this happens?! which of course doesn't make sense It would be nice that the driver doesn't reinstall itself at every update though. They don't change the driver often.

[terrym@tassie]

This happens to me even if I OK the UAC message.

It would be nice that the driver doesn't reinstall itself at every update though. They don't change the driver often.

+1 to this, I know this was debated long and hard sometime ago and Glynor in particular put a very persuasive case as to why it should always be updated.
I can't help but feel it would be better if the WDM driver was treated more like the Directshow filters like LAV and Madvr which only get updated when they change.
However I don't know enough about how the WDM driver is integrated with the main program via the IPC to know whether this is feasible.

I will say that this is a real PITA to me as I have to reboot, check lip sync, reinstall every update. In a word TEDIOUS.

[RoderickGI]

I always do manual updates on my HTPC. I have automatic update turned off.

Are you guys saying that you just re-run the MC21 installation file to fix the lag, or do you find and run the WDM Driver installation executable?

If so, where is the WDM installation executable? (I'm being lazy and haven't looked.  )

[terrym@tassie]

I always do manual updates on my HTPC. I have automatic update turned off.
Are you guys saying that you just re-run the MC21 installation file to fix the lag, or do you find and run the WDM Driver installation executable?

I also have to do manual updates NOW because of this issue, (try explaining why we can't watch Fargo for 10 minutes whilst I just repair this little fault, dear one)

I de-install the WDM (remove from options), exit program, reinstall by double clicking  MediaCenter2100nn.exe in Install folder and it is usually OK.

[RoderickGI]

Thanks Terry. I'll have to try that.

[Arindelle]

This happens to me even if I OK the UAC message.
.....................
I will say that this is a real PITA to me as I have to reboot, check lip sync, reinstall every update. In a word TEDIOUS.

hmm I can't remember Glynor's post on this, but if he says its needed it must be ... but this reinstall stuff I don't see why ?? there must mbe something else going on for you Terry. So you are saying that even if you re-run the exe file you have to reconfigure??? that's more than a small pita.

I always do manual updates on my HTPC. I have automatic update turned off.

Are you guys saying that you just re-run the MC21 installation file to fix the lag, or do you find and run the WDM Driver installation executable?

If so, where is the WDM installation executable? (I'm being lazy and haven't looked.  )

I do not change any of my settings, uncheck WDM or have to mess/reconfigure DSPs... on one of my machines I have to go into Windows to reset the JRiver driver to default, however, but that's a known issue in some Bios/Windows combos I think. Latency/buffering by zone remains intact so there is no "lag", to re-correct. Its either it got installed right or it didn't if you follow me.

The simple way to find the last exe or to roll back if needed is Help=>Update Channels=>Open D.L. folder choose the file and run it.

[terrym@tassie]

So you are saying that even if you re-run the exe file you have to reconfigure??? that's more than a small pita.

I don't have to reconfigure, just re-install, once that is done its fine.
It may be because I use the WDM to "listen" to the SPDIF input of my ASUS D2x sound card so I can use the HTPC to play audio from my Sky satellite PVR.

All moaning about the update issue aside the WDM is really good with Windows 10, low latency (I can use minimum hardware buffer settings) so gives really good results.
I can now have the same audio experience whether I am watching downloaded video, bluray, dvd, streamed browser content or Sky satellite programmes.

It would be nice however to be able to update the main MC program without it messing up the WDM.
My view is if the WDM driver doesn't need updating then don't update it and cause issues.
I don't see why the currently loaded WDM driver can't just be checked for revision compatibility with the main MC program and only updated if absolutely required.

[RoderickGI]

Well, after an uninstall/reinstall of the WDM Driver as suggested I tested again. Using a high quality YouTube trailer, and with minimum Buffer and Latency settings, I can still see lip sync problems. Not a two second delay, but enough to be very annoying. At that same time the sound is full of artefacts. Crackling and clicks mostly. Too bad to watch a movie.

So for my current system, I can't use the WDM Driver for sound external to MC.  

It could be a lot better on Windows 10, but I'm still on Windows 7 for the moment. I'll test again after I have upgraded Windows.

[Arindelle]

Well, after an uninstall/reinstall of the WDM Driver as suggested I tested again. Using a high quality YouTube trailer, and with minimum Buffer and Latency settings, I can still see lip sync problems. Not a two second delay, but enough to be very annoying. At that same time the sound is full of artefacts. Crackling and clicks mostly. Too bad to watch a movie.

So for my current system, I can't use the WDM Driver for sound external to MC.  

It could be a lot better on Windows 10, but I'm still on Windows 7 for the moment. I'll test again after I have upgraded Windows.

I know you know what you are doing Roderick, but just to confirm a couple of things

you do have a separate zone set for the wdm driver don't you? and local files you have other zones for playback? cracks and drop out seem to me to be related to very low buffering settings for the most part

are you running WASAPI or using an ASIO driver -- if it is an ASIO driver is it native to your hardware, or is it the JR ASIO one?

I just found that it seems that those that have these issues using WASAPI, exclusive and have separate zones don't have issues and those that have ASIO have to tweak another parameter in the driver ... doesn't seem to make a difference using Win7 or Win10 -- latency might be slightly improved for the later but that can be compensated for, end result is the same.

google "audio video sync test" and you 'll get some you tube vids that make the sync easy(ier)

2000th post --- do you know they give out JRiver truckers caps when you have 2000 posts !!! At 3000 you get a hoody 

[RoderickGI]

Thanks Arindelle.

I am using WASAPI exclusive mode. I haven't set up a separate zones as yet because in all my testing I haven't found a setup that actually works for external video sources using the WDM. I tweak settings in the one zone and when it doesn't work, put them back. My understanding is that I only need separate zones when I want to use one zone for audio only, with decent Buffering and Latency settings to avoid artefacts, as it doesn't matter with audio only, and the second zone is for video playback where I need to minimise the Buffers and Latency settings to achieve the best lip sync I can, perhaps while suffering a little sound degradation.

Using the YouTube sync videos is a good idea. I didn't use them this time as I could see the lip sync problems easily, and I wanted a good sound track in the video I was using for testing. I have local video sync test files for various frame rates, so I know how well my system keeps sync from local files. (Which isn't completely brilliant for all frames rates by the way, with a bit of drift, but over a long time and it corrects eventually.)

I should also try more Buffer and Latency combinations I guess. I have tried combinations of Recommended and Minimum, and a few others, but maybe I need to try a lot of others. I guess you have prompted me to do that at least, when I find time.

I should also set up the zones so I'm not tweaking my primary playback zone all the time. Then I will need an IPC zone. Oh, the complexity!

If we could just adjust the synchronisation of the video feed to the soundtrack, the WDM Driver would be fine. Functionality just like the Subtitles timing adjustment, that is saved to the file and has a default, would be great. But unless I have totally missed something in MC, we don't have that option.



PS: You were all the way up to 2005 posts by the time I saw this. You just can't help yourself, can you! 

[Arindelle]

@Roderick -- sure no problem.

Actually its more so I understand, lots of people that have problems with the Driver don't know the JR software that well, so its hard to tell why they have issues .. you do which is why I ask -- no patronizing or condescension implied  !

I have set-up and, euh unfortunately, maintain JRiver on about 10 of my friends and family members' systems. Once I set up at least 1 zone dedicated for the driver, use a zone switch rule like MWILems put up in the Wiki, these problems just disappear. The only time I had an issue is with an ASIO native driver config for a pretty complicated system with active passovers and such. For that I set up a  second zone for streaming music from Tidal and one for streaming video. I don't know why, but clicks, pops, and dropouts always seem to be linked to low latency settings ...

My understanding is that I only need separate zones when I want to use one zone for audio only

seems logical, I don't know why the separate zone seems to be needed, but I just haven't had any problems since doing so. Something to do with not using general settings with too low of a latency/buffer settings? And it has never affected upgrades, as the OP is on about, on any of these systems or my friends would have complained about it I'm sure. Not sure about sub-title timings, but the zone info is saved to the backup so on upgrades, there shouldn't be any readjustment for the 2 second "lag"

If you have the time and could try a zone set-up for this I'd be interested in seeing if this resolves this or if I just got 10 times lucky   - for video fans local playback timing and streaming playback timing is never going to be the same so its normal to have multiple settings (but should always be the same using a sync video for WDM streaming (if the source is in sync of course); for audio geeks low latency settings can sound actually bad on certain systems, I found btw ... DAC dependant? not sure

PS: You were all the way up to 2005 posts by the time I saw this. You just can't help yourself, can you!

HAHA! you caught that! 

[terrym@tassie]

This thread is starting to meander from the original OP issue.
Just to be clear, I run a separate zone for IPC ( with the appropriate low latency settings) using WASAPI exclusive.
It works great, no clicks pops or sound degradation, until I do an update.

When I reboot the system after an update a massive amount of latency is introduced AND it will remain that way until I remove the WDM driver and re-install from the exe and then re-enable the WDM.

I have been using MC since V17 on multiple systems and have multiple zones configured etc etc. So not a newbie to configuring or using MC. The HTPC only runs MC21, Chrome and Firefox browsers so very simple system software.

The IPC zone has jrss upmixing from 2 channels to 4 channels, various parametric eq filters to tune the output frequency to suit the room and nothing else.
I have seen on other posts that possibly the jrss upmixing MAY be implicated in this issue.

It clearly is not affecting all users but enough people keep posting for me to know that my situation is not unique, and to be honest if you only use the WDM for audio (Spotify etc)  you would never know you had a problem.

 I know the worst kind of bug to track is one that cannot be reproduced by the developers which I think is the case here.

So given that, it might be useful if anyone else who is affected by this WDM update issue posts their general config for WDM use
 (eg. Operating system, DSP options enabled, output type (WASAPI or ASIO), any inputs that are monitored by the WDM etc)
So in my case:

Windows 10, ESET Smart Security with all MC folders and the WDM driver file excluded from AV scanning, realtime protection etc.
IPC zone with the following settings:
Output format 48khz, 2 channels upmixed with jrss to 4 channels, parametric eq.
WASAPI exclusive, minimum hardware buffers and IPC latency set to minimum.
SPDIF input enabled and set via Windows to be listened to on MC21 WDM.
Hardware is Asus D2x soundcard on the PCIE bus.

I'm hoping to find some commonality that links users affected by this bug.

[RoderickGI]

This thread is starting to meander from the original OP issue.

Well that is true, sorry, but unless more people are willing to use the WDM Driver, then you won't get a lot of support from people with the same problem as the yourself and the OP.

So we need to have a little bit of how and why use the WDM to convert more users like myself. I have only seen the two second delay problem because I have played with the WDM every now and then. Now that I know to uninstall the WDM and reinstall will (may) fix the two second delay, I might well make the time to set up zones and try the WDM properly.

I had a lot to say about the WDM installation and upgrade process back when it was going through its teething problems, so I won't go through that again. But I haven't been happy with it yet. Maybe another try will sort it out well enough to use.

[terrym@tassie]

Well that is true, sorry, but unless more people are willing to use the WDM Driver, then you won't get a lot of support from people with the same problem as the yourself and the OP.

That is a good point and well made.
 
In fact I am pretty sure I was suffering from this bug the first time I tried to implement the WDM on my system and gave up on it as I couldn't get the required latency for acceptable lip sync- just thought it was characteristic of the WDM/my system.
It was only when I revisited it many releases later and found I COULD get low latency that I started to use it and then the fact that updates cause a latency problem became very clear.

It is not a show stopper, I've got a work around but I think it would be good to try and solve it if at all possible.

[Arindelle]

This thread is starting to meander from the original OP issue.

I didn't get that zones were set up for the OP or you until you made it clear ... I was trying to confirm my theory that lot's of people that have problems with the WDM driver are not setting up zones and tend to be setting their general config to too low latency/buffer combos which are giving the drop outs and other problems.

It obvious that Terry knows what he's doing with the software now, but so often you try to help people here but they have not passed a certain point in the learning curve so its hard to be empirical about finding "cause". I still think that lots of problems are linked to the fact that people are not separating their latency configs from local playback and streaming playback (especially video not audio) by zone -- either because they don't know how too, or don't want to mess with them.

But this 2 second "lag", as Terry configured his system, is not linked to separate zones.  I don't have "SPDIF input" enabled, nor have I every used ASUS cards for WDM playback so there are a lot of variables. A hard one to debug. ?

[orangeart]

Been a while since I visited, I see my post has had lots of replies. I'm glad to see other are having the same problem and that they seem to have found a much better work around ( the reinstalling thing) than I did. New time I'll try that one. Thanks.

Just to confirm that the pops and crackles I get are on a system where I use different studio interfaces for output but mainly my behringer 610 firewire one. This is an ASIO device. I run fairly relaxed latency setting on both the device and within J river as my screen introduces a fair amount of video lag anyhow so don't need really tight settings. It does happen a little less with windows 10 but does still happen.

 I do have only the one zone set up, maybe that doesn't help, I can set up another zone no problem to test the theory but how do I set up a zone switch for the WDM driver?