Topic: Converting 2xDSD to DSD for Native DSD dac (Read 14356 times)

michael123 · « **on:** December 14, 2015, 01:06:31 pm »

Hello

We have EMM Labs device that supports up to 192/24 PCM and DSD via USB

How is it possible to configure MC to downconvert DXD to 192/24 and 2xDSD to DSD?

Audio/Output settings have only PCM

dtc · « **Reply #1 on:** December 14, 2015, 04:27:37 pm »

You can either create a new file or do it on the fly.

To go from DSD to a PCM file, select a DSD file, right click on it and select Library Tools - Convert Format. Select Options then click DSP Settings and select Output Format. Set Greater than 384,000 to convert to 192,000. To do it on the fly, hit the Audio Path button in the top line and follow the same procedure.

To convert 2xDSD to 1xDSD, MC needs to convert to PCM, which is not a recommended conversion. You can do it by setting Output Encoding to DSD in DoP format. But, it goes through PCM.

dtc · « **Reply #2 on:** December 14, 2015, 09:15:03 pm »

Sorry - read DXD as DSD. To convert DXD to 192K, just specify 192K next to 352K and 384K in DSP - Output Format.

Note - the DSP settings for Converting and for Playback are separate.

michael123 · « **Reply #3 on:** December 14, 2015, 11:42:40 pm »

Hi,

I know how to downsample pcm on the fly, I don't know how to distinguish between DSD and PCM

If 2xDSD is being converted to PCM while the target encoding is DSD, it is not then a viable option for me.

Is it possible then to bitstream DSD and the rest convert on the fly to PCM?

dtc · « **Reply #4 on:** December 15, 2015, 07:20:29 am »

Bitstreaming DSD is set up when you set up your audio. Set Bitstream to DSD and if you ASIO, check the Bitstream over DoP option in Device Settings. That will override the on the fly DSD conversion in Output Format.

See the DSD article in the Wiki - DSD over PCM (DOP).

michael123 · « **Reply #5 on:** December 15, 2015, 07:48:39 am »

As I wrote.. I can play DSD (means DSD, not 2xDSD and not 4xDSD) and PCM up to 192/24

blgentry · « **Reply #6 on:** December 15, 2015, 08:00:53 am »

You want:

1. Every PCM rate above 192k converted down to 192k. I think you have this covered. DSP Studio > OUtput Format > Middle Pane. Set the rates you want in the list.
2. DSD to play as DSD, with no PCM conversions. I think you have this covered. Tools > Options > Audio > settings > bitstreaming > DSD .
3. 2xDSD converted to DSD without using PCM. JRiver can't do this. Presumably your DAC doesn't play 2xDSD files natively.

You have a several options:

A. Convert all DSD to PCM on the fly. Just turn off bitstreaming and that will happen. *Some* people actually say that some DACs that play DSD sound *BETTER* when they play DSD that's been converted to PCM. I have no experience, just reporting what I've read.
B. You might be able to set up a zone for 2xDSD that only plays this format. Then you'd set up that zone to convert 2xDSD to PCM. So you'd only get this conversion on 2xDSD files. You'd need a zone switch rule to activate this zone when you play 2xDSD files.
C. Use some third party application that can magically transcode 2XDSD to 1xDSD. Then import the transcoded files only, leaving the 2xDSD files on your disk, but not in JRiver's inventory.
D. Stop buying 2xDSD files since you don't have a DAC that can play them.

Brian.

michael123 · « **Reply #7 on:** December 15, 2015, 08:11:16 am »

Thanks, Brian

Yes, you got me right, I will need to explore zones functionality.

However, I would like to see in the output settings window also DSD signals, and also the options to map.. Either to PCM or DSD

dtc · « **Reply #8 on:** December 15, 2015, 08:35:24 am »

Quote from: michael123 on December 15, 2015, 08:11:16 am

However, I would like to see in the output settings window also DSD signals, and also the options to map.. Either to PCM or DSD

I agree that greater than 384,000 is not adequate. There should be separate options for what to do with 1xDSD, 2xDSD and 4xDSD files.

blgentry · « **Reply #9 on:** December 15, 2015, 08:42:36 am »

Yes, the overall idea of handling PCM and DSD in ONE place instead of 3 places is a good one. DSD is well implemented here in MC, but it's one of the singularly most confusing aspects of setup. There are a lot of questions about DSD setup here in the forum.

In principle I like the idea of integrating DSD input to output in the Output Format module. It would allow ease of setup and more flexibility than we seem to have now.

Brian.

michael123 · « **Reply #10 on:** March 31, 2016, 07:54:38 am »

Hey

I wanted to check the way I can promote this feature (or refactoring) of the file conversion & DSD handling.

Again - the topic is to handle DSDx2, DSDx4 etc the way other high rates PCM files are handled, so I can specify which things DAC supports and how the stream should be converted

If I want to stream 192/24 PCM as-is, if I want to convert to to DSD,
if I want to downconvert DSDx2 to DSD and then to feed to the DAC (via DOP)
if I want to downconvert DSDx2 to 384/24 PCM and then to feed it AS PCM..

etc.

The technology is there I think, it is just a matter of refactoring the GUI

dtc · « **Reply #11 on:** March 31, 2016, 08:59:50 am »

Quote from: michael123 on March 31, 2016, 07:54:38 am

The technology is there I think, it is just a matter of refactoring the GUI

Converting 2xDSD to 1xDSD in MC would go through a PCM conversion. So, that part of the technology should be changed.

In addition, I would like to see conversion of dff to dsf included. The only difference in the formats is in the header, so the conversion would simply be to write out a dsf header and then copy the music bits. It would be a special case, but a simple one.

Overall I agree - the handling of DSD files and conversions could use some improvement.

michael123 · « **Reply #12 on:** March 31, 2016, 09:43:26 am »

Do you know how it is possible to get the official answer from the developers?

I use (as probably thousands other people) MC for audio only, I did not see not a single feature in MC21 related to audio/audiophiles
Maybe I missed something.. In June I believe owners will ask me to pay for another upgrade..

Awesome Donkey · « **Reply #13 on:** March 31, 2016, 12:26:19 pm »

Quote from: michael123 on March 31, 2016, 09:43:26 am

Do you know how it is possible to get the official answer from the developers?

It wouldn't matter if it came from the developers, in all likelihood the answer is likely the same. There's very knowledgeable members on these forums - I agree with Brian and dtc's posts and recommendations here.

Any conversion involving DSD will through a PCM conversion. If your DAC doesn't support 2xDSD playback you'll either have to convert to PCM or down to 1xDSD (which is converted through PCM) either on-the-fly or through the Convert Format option. Otherwise the only other option is buying a new DAC that supports 2xDSD playback.

Quote from: michael123 on March 31, 2016, 09:43:26 am

I use (as probably thousands other people) MC for audio only, I did not see not a single feature in MC21 related to audio/audiophiles
Maybe I missed something..

Have you read the Wiki? There's all types of articles on MC's audio features.

Quote from: michael123 on March 31, 2016, 09:43:26 am

In June I believe owners will ask me to pay for another upgrade..

Upgrades to newer versions are optional. If you're happy with whatever version you're using and see no reason to upgrade, then don't and stay with that version.

michael123 · « **Reply #14 on:** March 31, 2016, 12:29:45 pm »

Well, that's exactly not kind of answer I was expecting..

Buy another DAC

It is a 35,000$ EMM DAC

I am asking for a feature request, and.. as a paying customer for few years I would like to get a proper answer.. roadmap or whatever

Awesome Donkey · « **Reply #15 on:** March 31, 2016, 12:32:16 pm »

What exactly is the feature request? Converting DSD without going through PCM? Don't think that's possible and any programs that claim otherwise are full of it.

michael123 · « **Reply #16 on:** March 31, 2016, 12:32:57 pm »

Did you read the post?

michael123 · « **Reply #17 on:** March 31, 2016, 12:37:56 pm »

To specify the format conversion for both DSD & PCM on the same page

Is it so difficult to develop a feature to specify that DAC supports DSD so DSD will go as-is, and DSD128 & DSD256 will be downconverted to whatever else DAC supports?

RD James · « **Reply #18 on:** March 31, 2016, 01:03:11 pm »

Everyone is making this too complicated.

The most basic problem here is that bit-streaming for DSD is an all-or-nothing option.
Ideally there would be auto-detection for the maximum rate supported, as there is for bit-depth. (see image)
If that is too difficult, a drop-down option in the custom section to select the maximum rate that will be bit-streamed so that higher (unsupported) rates will be converted to PCM would work.

The larger issue is that the output format options as a whole are getting very complicated as more and more options are being added (and yet there is still no label that marks 352,800 Hz as 1x DSD-to-PCM, and 705,600 Hz as 2x DSD-to-PCM) however that is probably a lot more work than adding to the bit-streaming options.

michael123 · « **Reply #19 on:** March 31, 2016, 01:07:21 pm »

EMM (and few others) is a real delta-sigma DAC, rather than other DOP-supporting PCM devices.

Actually, EMM is of my friend

I have Metronome C6 DAC, which is a PCM device, so I indeed convert everything DSD to 176/24 and I am OK

dtc · « **Reply #20 on:** March 31, 2016, 08:19:27 pm »

Quote from: michael123 on March 31, 2016, 01:07:21 pm

EMM (and few others) is a real delta-sigma DAC, rather than other DOP-supporting PCM devices.

Actually, EMM is of my friend

I have Metronome C6 DAC, which is a PCM device, so I indeed convert everything DSD to 176/24 and I am OK

DoP has nothing to do with delta-sigma. DoP is simply an alternative way to deliver a DSD bitstream to the DAC. DACs that use DoP convert the DoP PCM stream back to the original DSD format. At least some of the EMM DACs use DoP, but again that is just the form used to transfer the data to the DAC. The DAC then handles it as DSD.

michael123 · « **Reply #21 on:** May 12, 2016, 08:18:04 am »

Reading some posts it looks like HQPlayer can upsample to DSD512, is it also done via PCM if the source is DSD?

Matt · « **Reply #22 on:** May 12, 2016, 08:22:16 am »

Quote from: michael123 on May 12, 2016, 08:18:04 am

Reading some posts it looks like HQPlayer can upsample to DSD512, is it also done via PCM if the source is DSD?

We can output at 8x DSD. We could add 16x but I'm not aware of any DACs that support that.

michael123 · « **Reply #23 on:** May 12, 2016, 08:25:33 am »

Ahh,

I asked for a feature to downconvert DSD128 to DSD (i.e. DSD64) if the DAC supports only DSD, rather than converting to PCM 176/24 or higher.
People here said that this conversion will necessary go via PCM

RD James · « **Reply #24 on:** May 12, 2016, 08:29:32 am »

Quote from: michael123 on May 12, 2016, 08:18:04 am

Reading some posts it looks like HQPlayer can upsample to DSD512, is it also done via PCM if the source is DSD?

It has to be. You cannot process a 1-bit audio signal without converting it to multi-bit first.

Revisiting this topic, I still think the easiest solution is to have an option for DSD bit-streaming which specifies the maximum rate supported by your DAC.
Ideally this would be determined automatically.

I'm guessing that some people may want individual control for each specific DSD rate (e.g. upsample 1x DSD but bit-stream 2x DSD) however that seems like it would be a lot more work, and largely unnecessary.

michael123 · « **Reply #25 on:** May 12, 2016, 08:31:48 am »

Even if the user is not interested in applying DSP and filters?

RD James · « **Reply #26 on:** May 12, 2016, 08:32:13 am »

Quote from: michael123 on May 12, 2016, 08:31:48 am

Even if the user is not interested in applying DSP and filters?

Upsampling is DSP.

michael123 · « **Reply #27 on:** May 12, 2016, 08:36:09 am »

you know what I meant

Then I am back to my original request - to enable to stream DSD natively if the source is DSD, and if the source is DSD128, DSD256, etc to convert to PCM

blgentry · « **Reply #28 on:** May 12, 2016, 08:43:42 am »

Your request for a more consistent integrated setup for PCM and DSD in one spot, with individual control of DSD rates is a good one.

But, you do realize you can accomplish most of this right now with Zones right? As I suggested originally a few months ago, near the top of this thread.

All you really need to do is set up a new zone for 2xDSD and choose the PCM rate you want it converted to in the DSP studio. Then set up zone switch with a rule to activate this zone, only if the sample rate is 2xDSD (5.6MHz).

Brian.

dtc · « **Reply #29 on:** May 12, 2016, 08:58:52 am »

Quote from: blgentry on May 12, 2016, 08:43:42 am

Your request for a more consistent integrated setup for PCM and DSD in one spot, with individual control of DSD rates is a good one.

But, you do realize you can accomplish most of this right now with Zones right? As I suggested originally a few months ago, near the top of this thread.

All you really need to do is set up a new zone for 2xDSD and choose the PCM rate you want it converted to in the DSP studio. Then set up zone switch with a rule to activate this zone, only if the sample rate is 2xDSD (5.6MHz).

Brian.

Brian - I think Matt has pointed out that zones do not switch nicely for this.

Setting up a conversion option for each sample rate should be straightforward. It is already done for each PCM sample rate, so the parsing logic is already in place. It would just some sort of lookup table that determines what to do for each DSD sample rate. The conversion procedures are already it place. It is just a matter of selecting what to do for each sample rate rather than treating DSD as a block.

With individual options, a user could easily specif something like this , just like it is done for PCM.

1x DSD - No Change
2x DSD - No Change
4x DSD - 356 KHz
8x DSD - 702 KHz

Obviously I do not know the internal logic, but on the surface this seems like it would be pretty easy to do. All the pieces are already there. I would also add a caveat in the dialog that any changes to DSD go through a PCM conversion, just so people know.

michael123 · « **Reply #30 on:** May 12, 2016, 08:59:29 am »

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=103044.msg725846#msg725846

blgentry · « **Reply #31 on:** May 12, 2016, 09:13:21 am »

I tried to help. <shrug>

Brian.

dtc · « **Reply #32 on:** May 12, 2016, 09:03:13 pm »

Brian - It would be great if the zone solution worked. I am not a zone guy, but my understanding is that it does not work in this case. It would be nice to get the DSD changes made, but it just does not seem to be a priority, unfortunately.

INTERACT FORUM

Author Topic: Converting 2xDSD to DSD for Native DSD dac (Read 14356 times)