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[elprice7345]

21.0.27 (12/11/2015)
1. Changed: Made a change to the tagging window to prevent editing tags when no files are selected.

Why was this change made? Can this change be undone or made a user configurable option?

Before this change, I was able to select files using the categories in the top pane and the files selected in the bottom window would show in the Tag window without me having to also select the resulting file list.

Now when I select files using the categories in the top pane, the Tag window isn't populated. I have to select the files in the bottom pane before the tag window is populated.

It seems to me that selecting files using the top panes should also select the matching files in the window below and populate the Tag window.

The change cost me several mouse clicks every time I update tags.

[marko]

For what it's worth, I agree with you. I do not know why it was changed.

It's always been the case in MC that "No files selected = all files selected (in the tag window)".

I've been working with it since the change, trying to get used to it, but it's not really happening for me.
I would rather see that change reversed than made an option, but either way, anything that brings us the 'old' way works for me.

-marko

[glynor]

There were a bunch of threads about it.

It is dangerous.  I've deleted my entire library before (or a decent chunk before I caught it and stopped it), and so have a number of others.

Combined with the more recent bug to sometimes pass keyboard controls like delete to hidden Views, it was particularly insidious. But, faced with accidental mass deletes or other possible destructive tag edits, I don't think needing to hit Control-A is too much to ask.

[glynor]

Here's one of them, where I brought up the functionality discussed here specifically:
https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=101408.0

But there were a few others. I know one user tracked down a bug where the Delete key was being sent to obscured views behind Display View, for example. They quashed that, but it doesn't help if you accidentally nuke your entire library with this kind of thing:

1. Accidentally get focus on the [Filename] field, not understanding where the cursor is...
2. Hit the spacebar trying to start playback...
3. And then (confused when spacebar doesn't work) maybe hit the Enter key...

And whammo, your whole Library, deleted.

Not even in the Recycle Bin, but gone. It'll preserve some of them in the Temp folder, if you go find them before it gets cleared out, but they'll lose all of their folder structure entirely, and the Temp folder will only hold so much (and is transient by nature).

Even if it isn't a catastrophic accidental edit of the [Filename] field, you can hose yourself quickly with any mass edit of tags like that that isn't explicit. If the Tag AW is sitting there open, and you're switching around Views and working on stuff... Recipe for disaster. The Pane Tagging forces you to have one or more files selected (and shows you a warning if you don't pre-enable it). The Tag AW now behaves the same.

[marko]

I don't think needing to hit Control-A is too much to ask.

Of course not. It's why I've not really mentioned it before.

I'll get used to it the way it is, but am not competely buying the "danger Will Robinson" surrounding the subject, simply because it hasn't caused me a single issue in thirteen years of use, but now, it's dangerous. I know I am not the only person with an MC licence, so it's OK, with a shrug of the shoulders

I remember thinking back then, thirteen years ago, how strange it felt that "nothing selected = all is selected (in the tag window)", but very quickly got used to it, embraced it even. Thirteen years of muscle memory is a hard thing to let go...

Can't we just tell people "not to do that" or "hmm, you shouldn't have done that"

-marko

[flac.rules]

I agree with glynor, the behavior suggested is dangerous, nothing is more annoying than programs doing massive destructive changes in "easy non-intuitive steps".

[glynor]

Can't we just tell people "not to do that" or "hmm, you shouldn't have done that"

I make no promises to always work on Media Center 100%, completely, sober. 

[Listener]

For what it's worth, I agree with you. I do not know why it was changed.

It's always been the case in MC that "No files selected = all files selected (in the tag window)".

I've been working with it since the change, trying to get used to it, but it's not really happening for me.
I would rather see that change reversed than made an option, but either way, anything that brings us the 'old' way works for me.

I'm with elprice7345 and Marko on this change.  I use the old behavior to streamline tagging files when I rip a CD or import downloaded files.

I think there is a UI difference between unexpected effects of the Delete key on windows that are buried and the effect of typing in a clearly visible Tag window with the file list also visible.

Once we learn how to apply MC's behavior to accomplish our tasks, we expect what we learned to continue to apply.  Preserving that investment in learning is more important than incorporating every bright idea that comes along.

All that said,  this isn't a life and death issue for me.  I pick a stable version of MC and stick with it for a long time.  It will be months before I move to the last version of MC 21.  I don't buy music at a great rate any more.  The change will be an annoyance and a reminder that I can't always count on JRiver to go in a direction that fits my needs.

[blgentry]

Once we learn how to apply MC's behavior to accomplish our tasks, we expect what we learned to continue to apply.  Preserving that investment in learning is more important than incorporating every bright idea that comes along.

I respect you Sir.  Honestly.

But don't you think you're being a little melodramatic?  In this case the idea is to prevent massive file deletion, which is kind of a big deal.  ...and the expense to the trained user is that he now has to perform a single mouse click, and a keystroke.  That doesn't seem like a burdensome UI change to me.

Brian.

[glynor]

That doesn't seem like a burdensome UI change to me.

It is also more consistent with the behavior in other locations in MC. The Panes, as I pointed out above, never worked that way. Nor can you drag-drop to apply tags without, of course, first selecting files.

Plus, as Marko pointed out above... It has always been weird that MC behaved in this way. It isn't "typical" in any way, and almost certainly runs counter to expectations from new users.

I agree that it was an occasionally handy shortcut. I used it too sometimes myself (I've been here a long time too). But, it only took one mass-deletion of unrecoverable files to change my mind on that right quick and solid. 

[Listener]

I respect you Sir.  Honestly.

But don't you think you're being a little melodramatic?  In this case the idea is to prevent massive file deletion, which is kind of a big deal.  ...and the expense to the trained user is that he now has to perform a single mouse click, and a keystroke.  That doesn't seem like a burdensome UI change to me.

I stated an important principle about the way software with a large, long-term user base should work.  Once you have a commitment to particular behavior, you should have some inertia about making clever improvements.   Like Marko, I have muscle memory developed oiver years of use.

I don't expect to demand and get changes to MC every time I think something could work more to my taste but JRiver should not pull the rug out from under me.

I was quite clear that the change wouldn't kill me.

I stated my views and  I did not dismiss anything other poeople said.  blgentry, perhaps you could do the same.

[JimH]

We try to preserve current functionality when possible, but sometimes it's necessary to change it.  Sorry for causing you trouble.

[marko]

I make no promises to always work on Media Center 100%, completely, sober. 

For that, we have another gem from the little book of stock responses...

"You did make backups, right?"

Mind you, donning my 'serious head' for a brief moment, if people are wiping out their files inadvertantly because of this, (I tried, and couldn't) it's fine to select first.

-marko