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[canever]

hello,

I am playing with MC20 and I am using a XMOS based INPUT on a SABRE32 DAC.

The ASIO driver is set to DoP and the bitstreaming in Tools>Options>Bitstreaming is set to DSD as suggested by the standard setup.

1 - When I play a PCM track the data are moved unchanged to the DAC, and when I play a DSD track it is packed by DoP.
I have no trouble to play both kind of tracks. On the display of the DAC a lock is showed and the sampling rate is correct for the PCM tracks and "uncorrect" for the DSD tracks cause the pack in the DoP format. The showed sampling rate for DSD file is not what you expect but it is the right sampling rate of the DoP (really a PCM) data flux. Only for this I wrote "uncorrect". The DoP is very clear and it is not a conversion of the DSD data but only a way to pack the DSD data using the PCM frames.

2 - If I set Tools>Options>DAC&OutputFormat>OutputEncoding to DSD in DoP format or 2xDSD in DoP format the sampling rate showed by the SABRE32 DAC is "right" for the dsd files (.dsf for example) - I means you can read the expected MHz value. Unfortunately all the PCM files are converted to DSD format and I don't want this.

I understand that in the case #1 the frames are PCM and in the case #2 the frames are DSD so the DAC is "well tuned".
Why don't think to a JRiver patch to send PCM frames when a PCM track is played and automatically send DSD in DoP frames for a DSD track?
Is my question a no sense question?

In the case #1 the XMOS based input acts as for a PCM input. There isn't any coding by JRiver cause DoP is used but the DAC works on a PCM track.

I would like the DAC locks on DSD when a .dsf track is played and on PCM when a .flac track is played without any need to change the setup in JRiver.

Thanks for any suggestion.

[jamezua]

Is your DAC capable to play native DSD files instead to play them in DoP? In that case the configuration should be other, I haven't understand with model of DAC is  ?, please let me know ...

Regarding on playing different types of audio files, you can use the Zones to do it, you should go first to the upper menu: Player => Zone => Add Zone, then add two zones, PCM and DSD, then go to Player => Zone => ZoneSwitch , enable it and add those two zones and then Edit each of them.

For the PCM zone using the Edit Search With Wizard:



and for the DSD zone:



you may find other rules or way to do it, that's how I have them and they work fine when you open files from the Windows Explorer folders, let me know if they work for you, cheers ... 

[canever]

useful! really what I am looking for.

The DAC is able to play native DSD file so your suggestion is really the way to work perfectly with the DAC.

The DAC is new and will appear on the market shorlty. Presented to the magazines in Germany a few days before Xmass.
Will be on line on February and officially presented at the HiEnd show in Munich.

Thanks a lot for the suggestion about how to set JRiver.

[jamezua]

If your DAC supports DSD native and has an ASIO driver, you should choose it in Audio device, and then in Device settings => Open Driver Control Panel put the correct options. I use the ASIO driver that has the Foobar2000 player and then choose my DAC:



Finally, choose in DSP and Output Format 1xDSD in native format as Output encoding, Bitstreaming Yes (DSD) and Prebuffering 6 seconds, that should work, let me know if not ... 

[canever]

unfortunately the XMOS driver (basic stereo version) hasn't a real control panel.
Better ... the control panel doesn't give you any way to configure as you suggest.

[jamezua]

Why don't you try to install the Foobar2000 ASIO component?

https://www.foobar2000.org/components/view/foo_out_asio

This is the way I have it, with foo_dsd_ASIO as Audio Device, then in the Driver Control Panel I choose my DAC and it has those DSD playback options:

[canever]

I will try today, and it is what I was thinking in these days.

Have you never tried ASIO4ALL?

Probably the foobar component should be better cause it is installed in a lot of computers and the probability of a bug/hole is less than Asio4All.
Finally it is debugged by the foobar users and they are a lot.
This makes the foobar component more universal, I mean it can be used with success is more installations than asio4All.
... isn't it?

Do you know something about the latency?

[jamezua]

I will try today, and it is what I was thinking in these days.

Have you never tried ASIO4ALL?

Probably the foobar component should be better cause it is installed in a lot of computers and the probability of a bug/hole is less than Asio4All.
Finally it is debugged by the foobar users and they are a lot.
This makes the foobar component more universal, I mean it can be used with success is more installations than asio4All.
... isn't it?

Do you know something about the latency?

ASIO4ALL I think is for people that don't have a specific ASIO driver for his DAC, I tried it but for me the Foobar component is best, sorry, know not much about latency, I am learning from day to day in all this matters, this forum is very useful for that purpose ... 

[JimH]

We don't recommend ASIO4All.  It's just using Kernel Streaming, so you might as well use Kernel Streaming.

[canever]

... forgot it is kernel streaming.

[canever]

tried the foo_dsd_ASIO driver 0.8.3.
Works well with the XMOS chip.

Configured the Zone and the Zone Switch in MC20.
Works well. Now the lock is PCM when there is a PCM trace and DoP when there is a DSD trace.
It is what I was looking for.

Only one buyproduct:
1 - If I play a PCM trace, any sampling rate, the lock is stable and the lock doesn't change even if nothing is playing.
2 - If I play a DSD trace, .dsf for example, the lock is stable to 2.8MHz till the trace is playing (I set 1xDSD in DoP format).
     When the trace is over the lock shows 176.4KHz. When I start again with another .dsf trace the lock go again to 2.8MHz.

I tihink 176.4KHz is the PCM frequency used to pack the DoP, so it is not an error. I should be wrong.
Anyway is there a way to let the DAC see always 2.8MHz even if the .dsf file is over?
Better, when a .dsf trace is over I would like JRiver continues to pack a DSD over PCM frame till the new trace is played, either PCM or DSD.

Possible?

 

[jamezua]

tried the foo_dsd_ASIO driver 0.8.3.
Works well with the XMOS chip.

Configured the Zone and the Zone Switch in MC20.
Works well. Now the lock is PCM when there is a PCM trace and DoP when there is a DSD trace.
It is what I was looking for.

Only one buyproduct:
1 - If I play a PCM trace, any sampling rate, the lock is stable and the lock doesn't change even if nothing is playing.
2 - If I play a DSD trace, .dsf for example, the lock is stable to 2.8MHz till the trace is playing (I set 1xDSD in DoP format).
     When the trace is over the lock shows 176.4KHz. When I start again with another .dsf trace the lock go again to 2.8MHz.

I think 176.4KHz is the PCM frequency used to pack the DoP, so it is not an error. I should be wrong.
Anyway is there a way to let the DAC see always 2.8MHz even if the .dsf file is over?
Better, when a .dsf trace is over I would like JRiver continues to pack a DSD over PCM frame till the new trace is played, either PCM or DSD.

Possible?

Sorry, I don't understand what you mean with "lock" and "trace", you can use Audio Path under the Player menu to see how it works, when I play a SACD with 1xDSD in native format and bitstreaming DSD this is what it shows:



and with DoP and no bitsreaming this:



that's why I don't use DoP, I don't think there is any conversion with bitstreaming, so it's just the original file and the more acute way to hear it, can't you play native DSD?  ?

[dtc]

that's why I don't use DoP, I don't think there is any conversion with bitstreaming, so it's just the original file and the more acute way to hear it, can't you play native DSD?  ?

DoP is simply the DSD bits packed into a PCM wrapper. The DoP capable DAC simply unpacks the bits and reconstructs the original DSD stream. It is bit perfect. It was designed so that you do not need an ASIO driver, partially because Apple's Core Audio does not support ASIO.

[dtc]

You can play DoP with a WASAPI driver. In Tools - Options - Audio Just select WASAPI as the driver and set Bitstreaming to DSD. You do not set a conversion in DSP studio. That is used to force a conversion of everything to DoP.

You only need ASIO if the DAC does not support DoP. As I said above, DoP is bit perfect dsd, assuming the DAC implements it correctly.

[canever]

I know exactly how DoP works and what it is.

What I am trying to manage is the behaviour of the DoP when there is no track playing.

The DAC I am using is a prtotype and the chip to interface the USB is XMOS and the driver is the official one you can download from the Xmos official web site.
The "DAC" chip is the ES9018S by Sabre.

What I am discussing about is the JRiver behaviour when the ASIO driver is set to DSD bitstream in DoP format and the bitstreming is set to Yes (DSD).

When a PCM track is playing, the DAC locks to PCM and shows exactly the JRiver sampling rate.
When a DSD64 track is playing, the DAC locks to DSD and shows exactly the JRiver sampling rate - 2.8MHz -, BUT, when the track is over and nothing is playing, the DAC locks back to PCM and shows 176.4KHz (and 352.8KHz when the track just over is DSD128 DoP mode).

@jamezua - Today I try as you said, I don't use DoP but native DSD. The DAC can play native DSD too.

Anyway my question still remains active:
when a DSD track is over and nothing is playing, the sampling rate indicator instead of DSD 2.8MHz jumps back to PCM 176.4K (nothing playing .. remember). When a new track starts the sampling rate becomes "aligned" with JRiver again. Only when there isn't nothing playing the sampling rate indicator shows the PCM "carrier" instead to stay in the previous condition.
JRiver when nothing is playing always "broadcast" "send" a PCM signal to the DAC. Isn't it?

It is not a problem, it is really a minus, but I would like to understand/solve by a setup if any.

176.4KHz is not wrong, it is the "PCM carrier for the DSD track", and the "carrier" for DSD64 is PCM 176.4
.... somebody will turn in the tomb cause the use of carrier ....
I used carrier only to explain. Don't jump to a discussion about carrier, DoP, modulated signal or similar.   

[jamezua]

Same here!  ?



I am playing DoP without DSD bitsreaming ( other way there would be no changes between the original signal and the output ) and the control panel of my iFi Micro DSD says it is playing 176400 Hz, but the led in the DAC is cyan, which indicates it's playing DSD 64 2.8 MHz, quite strange, but if I play that track with 1xDSD in native format, the led is still cyan, but the control panel says it's playing 2822400 Hz:



and BTW, it sounds better ... 

[canever]

@ Jamezua

what you are experimenting is exactly the theme of my post.

But 176.4K is not strange. It is the PCM "carrier" used for the DoP. The result is right.
My DAC detects everthing and shows also a DSD lock at 2.8MHz.
Unfortunately this happens only when a DSD track is playing. When there is a nothing playing, it locks PCM and 176.4K.  

[dtc]

I am playing DoP without DSD bitsreaming ( other way there would be no changes between the original signal and the output ) and the control panel of my iFi Micro DSD says it is playing 176400 Hz, but the led in the DAC is cyan, which indicates it's playing DSD 64 2.8 MHz, quite strange, but if I play that track with 1xDSD in native format, the led is still cyan, but the control panel says it's playing 2822400 Hz:

It sounds like the DAC is accurately representing the signal that it is getting and what it is playing. DoP is transmitted at 176K and the DAC breaks that out into 2.8MHz DSD for playback. For native format, the DAC receives 2.8MHz and plays it as 2.8 MHz DSD. So, it sounds like the DAC is showing what the manufacturer intended. Actually, it is nice that shows both the input sample rate and what it is playing. That makes it very clear whether it is receiving DoP or native.

As to the sound, the posts above indicated that iFi has had known problems with the DoP performance. Are you up to date with updates? If so, maybe the iFi implementation still needs some work.

[jamezua]

It sounds like the DAC is accurately representing the signal that it is getting and what it is playing. DoP is transmitted at 176K and the DAC breaks that out into 2.8MHz DSD for playback. For native format, the DAC receives 2.8MHz and plays it as 2.8 MHz DSD. So, it sounds like the DAC is showing what the manufacturer intended. Actually, it is nice that shows both the input sample rate and what it is playing. That makes it very clear whether it is receiving DoP or native.

As to the sound, the posts above indicated that iFi has had known problems with the DoP performance. Are you up to date with updates? If so, maybe the iFi implementation still needs some work.

Wouldn't be upsampling to "break out" from 176 KHz to 2.8 MHz? As the presumed problems with DoP I can't say nothing, as I only hear pure DSD: DoP is something that people use because their DAC or operating system cannot handle native DSD, not my case, and thanks, my firmware and drivers are up to date ... 

[dtc]

Wouldn't be upsampling to "break out" from 176 KHz to 2.8 MHz?

"Breaking out" DoP is not upsampling. DoP simply encapsulates the DSD bitstream into it and the DAC extracts the bits. The 24 bits in each sample of a DoP stream are broken up to use 8 bits to identify that this is a DoP stream and 16 bits of DSD data. So, the first 16 bits of a DSD file go into the first 24 bits, the second 16 go into the second 24 bit, the third 16 go into the third 24 bit, etc. The DAC extracts those 16 bit chunks, merges them together and exactly reproduces the original DSD bits.  It is a bit perfect process and does not involve upsampling.

[canever]

@dtc
perfect explanation.

DoP or DSD are the "same". The DAC has to work in a different way, but the bits received are exactly the same. No upsampling, no conversion to PCM.

What I am experimenting is right.
1) When there is a PCM track the DAC receives PCM bits and the sampling rate shown is right and what you expect.

2) When there is a DoP track the DAC receives DSD bits and the sampling rate shown is right and what you expect.

3) When a track is over, either PCM or DSD, JRiver sent to the DAC frames where the sampling bits are all to "zero" (*), and the DAC detect PCM. The DAC cannot know if before there was a PCM or a DoP.

[jamezua]

Thanks dtc, everything's clear now ...