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[osuchamp02]

My AVR has a AK4458 DAC , DSD 5.6 MHz, FLAC 192 kHz/24-bit Hi-Res Audio Capable
384 kHz/32-bit.  If I choose to bitstream dsd in the options shouldn't jriver play it?  The error I'm getting is 

Playback could not be started on the output WASAPI using format dop 2.8 2ch

My connection is Win 10 GTX 750ti HDMI out to Onkyo RZ900

[blgentry]

How are you sending audio to the AVR?  The manual says it supports DSD via HDMI.  It also says that it does NOT support DSD via wireless networking.  It also says it supports DSD via USB drives.  It doesn't mention using USB as a DAC input.  In 5 minutes of searching, I didn't find anything that indicated it could do digital input via USB; just USB drives.

Brian.

[dtc]

His connection is through HDMI - last sentence.

[RD James]

Can't do DSD over HDMI from a PC, it has to be USB.

[dtc]

Can't do DSD over HDMI from a PC, it has to be USB.

This is DoP which looks like a PCM signal, but carries the DSD bits. If you can do PCM over HDMI you should be able to do DoP unless HDMI is looking at the PCM signal, determining that it is DoP and rejecting it, which I doubt. I have no experience with DoP over HDMI, but it seems like it should work.

My question is whether 176 KHz PCM works in his configuration. If it does, then DoP should also. But, again, I have never done it so I may be wrong.

Edit : The manual says the receiver accepts DoP over HDMI, so, unless the manual is wrong, it seems like it should work.

[osuchamp02]

So if you cant bitstream DSD over HDMI on a pc then I will let JRiver convert it to PCM.  When it plays it pulls it down to 96kHz 64bit.  Is that better then 384KHz 32bit that the avr should be able to play?  Why does it play at a lower volume level? 

[dtc]

So if you cant bitstream DSD over HDMI on a pc then I will let JRiver convert it to PCM.  When it plays it pulls it down to 96kHz 64bit.  Is that better then 384KHz 32bit that the avr should be able to play?  Why does it play at a lower volume level? 

There should be no restriction on using DoP over HDMI. You should be able to do that. The question is why is it not working.

Are you able to play 176KHz or 192KHz PCM? If not, there may be a setup option preventing that, which may be why the DSD does not play.


If you want to convert DSD to PCM you can set the PCM sample rate in DSP Studio, Output Format. (Hit the litttle box with 3 vertical lines on the top right to get to DSP Studio. It will also tell you what conversions are being made.) Just set >384,000 to whatever you what, like 176 KHz.  >384.000 means  DSD. Presuming that works, try different sample rates and decide which you like.

DSD is normally 6 dB below PCM. That is the standard. You can go to Tools - Options - Audio - Advanced - Configure Input Plugins - DSD and there is a check box to increase the volume by 6 dB. Give that a try.

[osuchamp02]

To use DoP I change the output encoding in the DSP Format menu correct?  If so I get an error that it wont work and says probably not supported by my hardware.

In the same DSP Format menu if I change all the sample rates to 384k it suggests to drop it down to 96k.  If i set it to 192k or 176k it will play with no encoding selected.  I sends PCM at selected sample rate to the AVR.

Playback Device Proprieties on the tap supported formats only show 192k for JRiver and the AVR.  Maybe that is something to call onkyo about. 

So I can at least listen to the new SACD album but DoP is still not working and the sample rate is not as high as I expected. 

[glynor]

To use DoP I change the output encoding in the DSP Format menu correct?

No!  Absolutely not. This should almost always be set to None.

Read:
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/DSD

And then go back and start here:
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Audio_Setup

[dtc]

DSP Studio is used to change formats - like for DSD to PCM or PCM to DSD or to change the sample rate or apply other effects.  The DoP option in Output Formatting - Encodiing is to convert PCM to DoP.  Since you are not doing that, you should have it set to None.

To convert DSD to PCM, in DSP Studio - Output Format set Encoding to None and set > 768K to 176K or 192K. It sounds like that is working for you . You should see that conversion in Audio Path (the 3 vertical line button). For this, you have Bitstreaming set to None in Audio Setup. Reading the manual for your receiver I see no reference to 384K support. It sounds like 192K may be the maximum sample rate for the AVR, even though the chip may go higher. So, I think DSD to PCM conversion is working as it should.

To set up  DoP follow the instructions in Glynor's first link. You need to set Bitstreaming to DSD in Audio setup. Setting Bitstreaming to DSD will override any DSP Studio conversions for DSD. In the Asio driver you can then set DoP. If you are using WASAPI, I believe it automatically does DoP for DSD files when bitstreaming is set.  Once again, Audio Path will show you the conversion that it is doing.  

[dtc]

I did some experimenting with my system this morning.  I find that in order to use WASAPI for DoP I need to have the Exclusive settings checked in Windows (Control Panel - Sound - Device - Advanced). If those are not checked, then using WASAPI for DoP gives the Playback cannot be started error. And, after checking those options, I need to reboot the computer in order to have DoP work correctly. Just checking the Exclusive options without rebooting, I still get the same error.

This is with Windows 7 and MC 20. I am not sure if it is system dependent or not. I have to check the Exclusive options in Windows and reboot the system. From then on it works fine.

Note - Exclusive mode is always checked in the MC WASAPI device settings. If I do not check the Exclusive mode in the WASAPI device settings in MC, then DoP never works. But I still have to check the Exclusive options in Windows.

Using ASIO, which is my normal setup,  DoP always works, independent of the Windows setting.

My DAC is a Chord Hugo with usb, using the Chord drivers, and, of course, Bitstreaming is set to DSD in MC.

[glynor]

Yes. Bitstreaming of any kind really requires exclusive access. Certainly DoP would, I'd think. The Windows mixer can't be allowed to interfere.

It is enabled by default with WASAPI.

[osuchamp02]

Settings have been confirmed to be configured according to the two articles linked in the previous post besides bitstreaming dsd being selected.  It wont play the SADAC files If it is selected.  

Exslusive is checked in windows and MC  

[dtc]

It is enabled by default with WASAPI.

But I still had to reboot the system when I changed the Windows Exclusive settings. That was what was new to me. I thought WASAPI would understand the Windows setting without a system reboot, but it did not.

EDIT - from my experiment, simply setting Exclusive mode in MC is not enough. You still have to do the same in Windows. In that sense, setting WASAPI by itself is not enough to get exclusive access. From what I can tell, setting Exclusive in MC tells MC to try to gain exclusive access, but if it is not also set in Windows, MC fails to get exclusive access. One of the Windows options is to allow programs to take exclusive control. If that is not set, MC cannot get exclusive control and bitstreaming fails. On the other hand, ASIO seems to work independent of the Windows settings.

[dtc]

Settings have been confirmed to be configured according to the two articles linked in the previous post besides bitstreaming dsd being selected.  It wont play the SADAC files If it is selected.  

Exslusive is checked in windows and MC  

So WASAPI with Exclusive mode set in MC, Bitstreaming set to DSD, Exclusive mode set in Windows, system rebooted. That should be the correct setup. If that gives the same playback error, not sure I have any more ideas. Can you use ASIO rather than WASAPI?

[osuchamp02]

yes same error

[glynor]

But I still had to reboot the system when I changed the Windows Exclusive settings.

That is also enabled by default, so would only be turned off if you were previously in there messing around.

yes same error

Please post a screenshot of Tools > Options > Audio and the DSP > Output Format dialogs.
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Screenshot

Also, a Log Package ZIP file after trying to play something and getting the error.
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Logging

[dtc]

That is also enabled by default, so would only be turned off if you were previously in there messing around.

Please post a screenshot of Tools > Options > Audio and the DSP > Output Format dialogs.
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Screenshot

Also, a Log Package ZIP file after trying to play something and getting the error.
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Logging

If people are having trouble with DSD, the Windows exclusive options are one thing to check. My precaution is that if you have to turn on the Windows Exclusive options, you should reboot to be sure they are effective.

I have not really looked at current versions of Windows, but in the past I believe shared mode was the default. That is why I suggested checking the Windows options.

Assuming the settings are correct, hopefully you can find something in the logs.

Thanks.

[glynor]

I have not really looked at current versions of Windows, but in the past I believe shared mode was the default. That is why I suggested checking the Windows options.

Since Windows 7 when WASAPI was introduced, the driver settings have always defaulted to:



It's possible, I suppose, that some 3rd party driver installers turn this off for some reason, though I'd be surprised. In any case, both should be enabled for MC's Exclusive Access mode to work, and yes, if you change driver settings here you may need to reboot for them to take effect.

Assuming the settings are correct, hopefully you can find something in the logs.

I'm mostly going to look at the System Info in the Logs to check drivers.

[kr4]

From fuzzy memory, to get BitStream, including DSD, via HDMI, set Bitstreaming to HDMI, not none and not DOP.  I do this in my weekend system, so I cannot be certain.  Will check back on the weekend with the menus in front of me.

[glynor]

From fuzzy memory, to get BitStream, including DSD, via HDMI, set Bitstreaming to HDMI, not none and not DOP.

That completely makes sense. I know the Tools > Options > Audio > Settings > Bitstreaming: DSD setting is really primarily used for USB DACs that support DSD. If you're connecting via HDMI, that's probably the setting you want.

If someone can confirm it, I'll update the wiki.

[dtc]

I read an article that said this receiver uses DoP but I cannot confirm that anywhere. I think that may be wrong. I believe the receiver may only be expecting native DSD sent over HDMI, e.g. by a SACD player. Onkyo says they test DSD using a SACD player, which would be native DSD. It also may be able to use DLNA to play DSD dsf files.  It will be interesting to see what Bitstream set to HDMI will do. But I no longer convinced that DoP is the answer here.

[osuchamp02]

Attached are the screen shots from JRiver

[osuchamp02]

Zipped log files attached and exclusive mode

[RD James]

You should check the supported formats tab for your HDMI connection, but I'm pretty sure that NVIDIA don't support 176.4kHz, so you wouldn't be able to do DoP either.

[glynor]

According to some people on Computer Audiophile, this isn't possible with a computer:
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/direct-stream-digital-hdmi-18895/

There wasn't a whole lot of detail there, but I read a few other similar threads elsewhere. It looks like sending DSD via HDMI is a vendor-created system not "blessed" by the HDMI standards body.

It is supported by certain proprietary SACD players when hooked up to a compatible receiver. But for this to work with a computer-based setup, you'd need a video card (which is serving the purpose of the SACD player in the chain) that supports sending DSD over HDMI via this special setup. But nvidia/amd/Intel would need to support the "standard" in their driver. Since there is no standard, just some AVR vendors inventing stuff on their own (which may or may not even be compatible with each other), that's not going to happen.

I think it is possible that you just can't do this from a computer using HDMI. If your AVR has a USB input, and will accept DSD via DoP (or provides an ASIO driver that works) then you could do it that way. But not via HDMI.

Again, I'm no expert. But that's what I'm reading all over the place.

[kr4]

According to some people on Computer Audiophile, this isn't possible with a computer:
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/direct-stream-digital-hdmi-18895/

That is old, outdated and incorrect information.

There wasn't a whole lot of detail there, but I read a few other similar threads elsewhere. It looks like sending DSD via HDMI is a vendor-created system not "blessed" by the HDMI standards body.

Untrue.  Support for DSD over HDMI was explicitly included in HDMI v1.2 several years ago.

Again, I'm no expert. But that's what I'm reading all over the place.

Mebbe but I have been doing it for years with various devices.

[dtc]

That is old, outdated and incorrect information.
Untrue.  Support for DSD over HDMI was explicitly included in HDMI v1.2 several years ago.
Mebbe but I have been doing it for years with various devices.

I think the issue is whether PC vendors have fully implemented the HDMI standard for DSD, both in the hardware and in the audio system.  There is no issue that it can be done from SACD players. As you said, that has been available since HDMI 1.2 which was introduced 10 years ago.

[glynor]

That is old, outdated and incorrect information.
Untrue.  Support for DSD over HDMI was explicitly included in HDMI v1.2 several years ago.
Mebbe but I have been doing it for years with various devices.

Ok, thanks. Like I said, I wasn't sure at all. I knew the threads were all old, but I couldn't find more detailed information.

I think the issue is whether PC vendors have fully implemented the HDMI standard for DSD, both in the hardware and in the audio system.  There is no issue that it can be done from SACD players. As you said, that has been available since HDMI 1.2 which was introduced 10 years ago.

Right. Does anyone know if all GPU vendors support this in their drivers, or if you need specific GPUs with specific drivers?

The 750 Ti isn't that old, but I don't know exactly what generation of GPU it is, because they rebrand things so often.

[kr4]

Right. Does anyone know if all GPU vendors support this in their drivers, or if you need specific GPUs with specific drivers?
The 750 Ti isn't that old, but I don't know exactly what generation of GPU it is, because they rebrand things so often.

You can inquire what the HDMI spec is for the hardware device and, if you can get an answer, it should be simple:  If it is HDMI v1.2 or higher, it will support DSD.  However, it also depends on the OS and software.  For example, I had trouble getting DSD (and MCH PCM 24/192) from my MacMini via HDMI under OSX but, with BootCamp and Win7, I was successful with both using the same MacMini.

[dtc]

You can inquire what the HDMI spec is for the hardware device and, if you can get an answer, it should be simple:  If it is HDMI v1.2 or higher, it will support DSD.  However, it also depends on the OS and software.  For example, I had trouble getting DSD (and MCH PCM 24/192) from my MacMini via HDMI under OSX but, with BootCamp and Win7, I was successful with both using the same MacMini.

According to this article, Apple HDMI since 2010 has been compatible with HDMI 1.4 and below and supports up to 8 channel 192KHz. You should be able to 2.8Mhz DSD with that using DoP, assuming they also do 172 KHz.

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204388

Apple OS does not support native DSD as I understand it. But DoP should be OK for 2.8 MHz DSD, although if you cannot get DSD or 192KHz to work, then something else is going on.

Windows 7 should support DoP on this hardware. It would also be interesting to see if it would support native DSD with ASIO. If it is truly HDMI 1.4 it should.

Unfortunately, PC vendors rarely tell you about HDMI versions. But if they support 172KHz PCM, then DoP should work. To do native DSD you need ASIO, which means you need ASIO support for the DAC driver.

A receiver is very unlikely to have an ASIO driver, so native DSD is probably not going to work on a receiver. And receivers are not likely to support DoP, which means DSD to receivers is probably not going to work. At least that is my understanding.

[kr4]

According to this article, Apple HDMI since 2010 has been compatible with HDMI 1.4 and below and supports up to 8 channel 192KHz. You should be able to 2.8Mhz DSD with that using DoP, assuming they also do 172 KHz.

Thanks.  I read the same but, after several calls to Apple help and a VPN session, they admitted they could not get multichannel 24/192 to work because of the OS, not the hardware.  Also, DOP is of no use for multichannel.

A receiver is very unlikely to have an ASIO driver, so native DSD is probably not going to work on a receiver. And receivers are not likely to support DoP, which means DSD to receivers is probably not going to work. At least that is my understanding.

MCH native DSD works with my AVP.

[dtc]

Thanks.  I read the same but, after several calls to Apple help and a VPN session, they admitted they could not get multichannel 24/192 to work because of the OS, not the hardware.  Also, DOP is of no use for multichannel.
MCH native DSD works with my AVP.

Did you get 2 channel 24/192 to work?

Is this from a player or a PC? What AVP?

[glynor]

A receiver is very unlikely to have an ASIO driver, so native DSD is probably not going to work on a receiver. And receivers are not likely to support DoP, which means DSD to receivers is probably not going to work. At least that is my understanding.

It is an HDMI device. There is no driver for the receiver, when connected that way. There's only the GPU driver. That's why I'm a bit confused.

[RD James]

Testing 192kHz won't help when DoP is 176.4kHz.
Check the supported formats tab for your HDMI audio device and see if it's listed.
If it isn't, then you can't do DoP.
Lots of devices will do 192kHz but not 176.4kHz or 88.2kHz.
 
PCs won't do DSD over HDMI, and NVIDIA GPUs won't do 176.4kHz over HDMI.
AMD will do 176.4kHz, no idea about Intel.

[dtc]

Testing 192kHz won't help when DoP is 176.4kHz.
Check the supported formats tab for your HDMI audio device and see if it's listed.
If it isn't, then you can't do DoP.
Lots of devices will do 192kHz but not 176.4kHz or 88.2kHz.
 
PCs won't do DSD over HDMI, and NVIDIA GPUs won't do 176.4kHz over HDMI.
AMD will do 176.4kHz, no idea about Intel.

Agreed that 176 Khz is generally required for DoP, although 192 KHz would work if both sides did it. But, nobody does that.

If AMD does 176 KHz then there is an opportunity to do DoP.

It looks like MC will send DoP to a HDMI output (if I read the log above correctly) so it seems like if a HDMI device does 176 KHz it should work.  So the AMD GPU or the Mac might work.

[RD James]

Agreed that 176 Khz is generally required for DoP, although 192 KHz would work if both sides did it. But, nobody does that.

DoP works because it's a 2.8MHz 1-bit signal cut into 16, and played as a 16-bit signal.
I guess it would be possible to do it at 192kHz but it would make things more complicated.

[dtc]

It is an HDMI device. There is no driver for the receiver, when connected that way. There's only the GPU driver. That's why I'm a bit confused.

I must admit I do not understand the path for audio to a HDMI output.  Does the audio go through the normal Windows audio path or a different path?  If it goes through the normal Windows audio system, then the only way to get native DSD is through ASIO  But, does that work with the HDMI driver? The question then  is what is required to get a native DSD signal to a HDMI output? If it requires the GPU provider to provide a specific  path for native  DSD in its driver,  then that is probably not likely.

It a different case for DoP. Then the only requirement is for the GPU and its driver to pass 176 MHz. But, again, how does the 176 MHz get to the GPU driver?

[dtc]

DoP works because it's a 2.8MHz 1-bit signal cut into 16, and played as a 16-bit signal.
I guess it would be possible to do it at 192kHz but it would make things more complicated.

Agree.The issue is not the 16 bit signal. That is the same for 172 MHz or 192 Mhz. The issue is simply the timing. But that is a theoretical issue. In practice, it is irrelevant. I just threw it in as an aside.

[RD James]

I think you missed the significance of those figures.
176.4 kHz x 16-bit (DoP) = 2822.4 kHz 1-bit (DSD)
A smart solution of transferring DSD to the DAC at a much lower sample rate.

192 kHz x 16-bit = 3072 kHz which is not DSD.
I guess you would pack it with empty samples to create a DoP stream, then buffer it in the receiving device and drop the last 15,600 samples to convert it back to DSD.
It could probably be done but wouldn't be a neat solution like 176kHz DoP.

[kr4]

Did you get 2 channel 24/192 to work?

I cannot recall.

Is this from a player or a PC? What AVP?

From a disc player, it was never a problem. From the MacMini, it was.  However, converting the MacMini to Win7 allowed all to work.  The AVPs were Marantz and Emotiva.  I can also do that from the PC/JRiver setup in my other home.  DOP is never involved, only native DSD via HDMI (or USB or Ethernet to other DACs).

[dtc]

I think you missed the significance of those figures.
176.4 kHz x 16-bit (DoP) = 2822.4 kHz 1-bit (DSD)
A smart solution of transferring DSD to the DAC at a much lower sample rate.

192 kHz x 16-bit = 3072 kHz which is not DSD.
I guess you would pack it with empty samples to create a DoP stream, then buffer it in the receiving device and drop the last 15,600 samples to convert it back to DSD.
It could probably be done but wouldn't be a neat solution like 176kHz DoP.

Obviously, 176KHz is the direct multiple and the easy solution.  But you could, theorectically, buffer 192 KHz data to produce a 2.822MHz signal. It would be messy, but doable if there were no such thing as 176KHz. As I said, it was an aside and I probably should have left it out.

[dtc]

So I tried a Windows 8 laptop with a Yamaha receiver over HDMI.  I never got straight DSD from the PC. I got  PCM or DoP, depending on the setup I used (sorry, I did not record the various setup combinations). MC output 352 KHz (even when I had DSP studio set to no change for DSD) which I converted to 176 LHz.  It seems like the best my combo can do is for MC to convert DSD to PCM. I did successfully play 172 KHz PCM, but that was clearly converted from DSD to PCM  by MC and I had to convert to 176 KHz. I did this with MC 20, but I doubt MC 21 would be any different.

[osuchamp02]

I will check and see if using ASIO changes anything when I get some time.  I think Onkyo is full of it when they put 384khz on the specs.  I cant get anything to play higher then 192khz.  I haven't tried anything using a usb stick yet.  Using MC as the server DLNA resulted in a PCM 24 bit 176.4khz.  The source file reads 1 bit 284khz dsf file.  The dlna server is set to to not convert anything so why did it use DoP?

[BryanC]

I will check and see if using ASIO changes anything when I get some time.  I think Onkyo is full of it when they put 384khz on the specs.  I cant get anything to play higher then 192khz.  I haven't tried anything using a usb stick yet.  Using MC as the server DLNA resulted in a PCM 24 bit 176.4khz.  The source file reads 1 bit 284khz dsf file.  The dlna server is set to to not convert anything so why did it use DoP?

FWIW my Onkyo cannot go above 24-bit/48K even though it advertises up to 24-bit/192K. I've tried it with multiple video cards so it's definitely the Onkyo.

[dtc]

FWIW my Onkyo cannot go above 24-bit/48K even though it advertises up to 24-bit/192K. I've tried it with multiple video cards so it's definitely the Onkyo.

If you are using HDMI, you might be getting 48K because of the HDMI video attached to the receiver. The receiver tells the PC what sample rates it can accept and may well being sending the value for the TV/monitor/projector attached via HDMI to the receiver.  You should unplug the HDMI output from the receiver and see if you get higher sample rates.

[kr4]

If you are using HDMI, you might be getting 48K because of the HDMI video attached to the receiver. The receiver tells the PC what sample rates it can accept and may well being sending the value for the TV/monitor/projector attached via HDMI to the receiver.  You should unplug the HDMI output from the receiver and see if you get higher sample rates.

That should not matter if the AVR is set to play the audio and NOT send it to the TV.

[dtc]

That should not matter if the AVR is set to play the audio and NOT send it to the TV.

If 48 KHz is the maximum sample rate, then the video is likely the cause. Discounting the HDMI is one way to troubleshoot it. My receiver has an option to either use the receiver or the HDMI output for audio but it is buried in the setup menus. If you never play audio to the video output device then I agree that a setting like that it is the way to go.

[madbrain]

You can inquire what the HDMI spec is for the hardware device and, if you can get an answer, it should be simple:  If it is HDMI v1.2 or higher, it will support DSD.  However, it also depends on the OS and software.  For example, I had trouble getting DSD (and MCH PCM 24/192) from my MacMini via HDMI under OSX but, with BootCamp and Win7, I was successful with both using the same MacMini.

I realize this is an old thread, but I am reading this with interest. Which GPU is in your MacMini that was successful sending DSD over HDMI ? Is it an Intel GPU ? If so, which one, and which driver version ?