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[HIW]

My primary use of JRiver is music but it may do some light duties in the movie arena.

What I have is a basic HTPC connected via HDMI to my receiver directly.   It's a NAD T775 with what appears to have a decent DAC built into it.   

Would I have any advantage in adding a DAC between the PC and receiver? 

I've searched and searched looking for this answer and I've read/learned a lot but didn't find my answer. 

My thinking is the connection I have is digital and bit perfect,  distortion free.  Not analog which can introduce things like RFI ect.    Will a DAC offer any improvement even a slight one over the connection I have?

[JimH]

Welcome to the forum.

HDMI to the receiver is a very good choice.  Unless you're unhappy with the sound from it, there is no reason to use a separate DAC.

[blgentry]

I guess it's all a matter of what you are aiming for.  The NAD receivers are known for a rather relaxed, nice sound; I don't doubt that your model sounds good.  It's DACs are probably inexpensive as DACs go, but I'm sure they are adequate.

On the other hand HDMI is reportedly, one of the worse digital transport methods for audio, as compared to USB, optical, or coaxial digital.  Something about the way the words are packed and unpacked or something.  I honestly don't know the details, but I've read this opinion from those who know.

Outboard DACs exist because they *can* provide better sound.  The question is, how much will you have to spend to hear better sound?  The analog connection between DAC and receiver won't be a source of distortion unless you buy very poor inexpensive cables.  Even $10 cables are adequate.

Again, depending on your use, you may or may not benefit from the "better sound" of an external DAC.  Do you sit in the stereo sweet spot and listen?  Or do you just use music as background?  Concentrated listening reveals things that casual listening does not.  ...and most people that like music do not just sit and do concentrated listening.  So it really comes down to your habits, expectations, and current satisfaction level with what you have.

Brian.

[JimH]

On the other hand HDMI is reportedly, one of the worse digital transport methods for audio, as compared to USB, optical, or coaxial digital.  Something about the way the words are packed and unpacked or something.  I honestly don't know the details, but I've read this opinion from those who know.

That's not correct.  You're repeating hearsay.

[blgentry]

That's not correct.  You're repeating hearsay.

Strictly speaking, you are correct.  Which is why I said that I had only read about this effect.  However, I feel the need to back up my statement with a reference, lest you think I misread something, or misunderstood.

http://www.head-fi.org/t/701900/schiit-happened-the-story-of-the-worlds-most-improbable-start-up/8775#post_12092764

Jason is the chief analog designer of Schiit Audio and works closely with Mike Moffat, his partner and the chief digital designer of Schiit.  Mike Moffat, as you might already know, invented the outboard DAC.  None existed before he decided to built one.

Maybe Jason is wrong.  I think his statement carries more weight than your average audio guy though.  A few minutes of web searching didn't reveal any good references for me to read on the subject.  So I'm back to "that's what I read" from what I think is a reputable source.

Brian.

[HIW]

Thanks for the welcome!   Been lurking here for a few months with this topic on my mind the entire time.   Never ran into it so I registered and had to ask! 

My thinking is digital is digital,  I am sending everything I have available to the receiver I have (say a 24/96 flac file) and not loosing anything or am I?   

I'd love to be able to try out a DAC without having to commit to buying it but don't know of a retailer willing to let me do that.   If it is better then I want one but if there is no advantage,  I don't want to complicate anything further unless there is an advantage.

I do like what I have but in the back of my mind I am thinking,  can I make it better...

[JimH]

Digital is digital.  You will see people say otherwise, but it's horse feathers.

Use it for a while, then think about whether you want to use a different DAC.

[blgentry]

I'd love to be able to try out a DAC without having to commit to buying it but don't know of a retailer willing to let me do that.   If it is better then I want one but if there is no advantage,  I don't want to complicate anything further unless there is an advantage

It's fairly common for "high end audio" retailers to offer in home trials of components like this.  Usually 1, 2, or sometimes 4 weeks.  Generally there is no obligation, though some have a restocking fee.  They should tell you all of this up front of course.

Some online companies do the same thing.  Schiit Audio does a 15 day in home trial period.  If you don't like it, you ship it back (at your expense) and pay a 5% transaction fee.  So, for a $400 DAC, you'd pay $20 plus shipping if you didn't like it.  Less than dinner for two at a cheap restaurant.  Not a bad deal.

Brian.

[HIW]

That sounds like a decent option.   I've been looking at the Schiit web site.   They seem to be offering top notch stuff while laying a serious price smack down on their competition. 

[mojave]

Would I have any advantage in adding a DAC between the PC and receiver?

Almost all receivers convert the analog input to digital and then use their built in DAC chips to convert back to analog for output. Putting a DAC between the PC and receiver only serves to degrade the signal.

Its an entirely different thing to output from a standalone DAC directly to amps, but that doesn't sound like what you are going to do.

[HIW]

I have almost every conceivable input type to the Receiver, the newest standard being HDMI which is why I went down that path since usually newer is better.   Not always as I think vinyl sounds noticeably better than CD's but SACD's sound better than both.    Even that extra 6 feet of HDMI and minimizing analog to the confines of the receiver boards instead of sending an extra 6 feet of analog transmission must have some advantage.  

I should add that what I currently have only converts digital to analog once,  correct?

[blgentry]

Almost all receivers convert the analog input to digital and then use their built in DAC chips to convert back to analog for output. Putting a DAC between the PC and receiver only serves to degrade the signal.

That's a good point.  Something you need to consider.  In this case, the T775 has a listening mode called "Analog Bypass" which turns off A/D conversion for the selected input, keeping everything analog from input to output.  Many receivers have a similar feature; not all, but some do.

If the OP decides to play with an external DAC, he should definitely make sure to engage this listening mode.  See page 14 in the manual.

Brian.

[blgentry]

Even that extra 6 feet of HDMI and minimizing analog to the confines of the receiver boards instead of sending an extra 6 feet of analog transmission must have some advantage.

In my opinion "6 feet of analog" cable has no effect whatsoever.

I should add that what I currently have only converts digital to analog once,  correct?

Should be.

Brian.

[Arindelle]

Almost all receivers convert the analog input to digital and then use their built in DAC chips to convert back to analog for output. Putting a DAC between the PC and receiver only serves to degrade the signal.

Its an entirely different thing to output from a standalone DAC directly to amps, but that doesn't sound like what you are going to do.

Yes! This is what you have to look into. Some receivers and standalone preamps with dacs do have the ability to bypass the dac or have "pure" analogue inputs which amounts to the same thing.

Whether you need one or not is something else again. Not wanting to get into any debate about what the guy from Schitt says as I couldn't find in that thread what he is referring to about HDMI he just says look into it ... be interesting for him to elaborate on a statement like that! HDMI can carry a bunch of channels, which some people need with there systems. You could create an HDMI zone for muti-channel and a SPDIF zone for audio maybe.  I don't need/want multi-channel for music personally so never thought about it. Both coax and toslink have advantages and maybe disadvantages to each depending. Other than replacing the receiver, ff you can't bypass, then don't buy a stand alone DAC.

I don't understand the extra 6 "analogue" feet you guys are talking about though. When you say analogue I'm taking that you mean from the external DAC to the receiver?  Or are you talking digital (which I believe what the Schitt guy was talking about. I'm not a fan about long analogue interconnects ... I use 1 meter or less, other wise go balanced for longer lengths if the amp/dac allows it. Not many external dacs I know of have HDMI inputs, I suppose they exist?

Will an external sound better ? (if the OP can bypass the DAC, that is) It can certainly sound different. You could not notice the difference at all,  too. Can one hear the difference between linear phase filters, and a steep filter? (Even on the cambridge dac magic which I got off of ebay for 150 bucks they have choices of "filters") ... sometimes, sure, not always. So sure "digital is digital", you get your "bit perfect" (notice the quotes) signal to the dac wherever it may be, then during the conversion/once the signal is in analogue a bunch of stuff can happen. Whether your ear can perceive it or not is something else again!

I have used three Dacs on my system a Schitt bifrost uber, a PSAudio NuWave, and a the cambrige dac.   I have one I prefer, its not the cheapest of the 3, but its not the most expensive either .. but Im' not tellin'  Actually they all sound pretty good!    You are paying for better power supplies, different "clocking", different sampling approaches, better shielding maybe .... the DAC chip itself is not an expensive affair, its a combination of things.

Beware of expectation bias .. if you plug in an expensive dac and right away you start marvelling at the depth of the soundstage, well I'd be careful to do some blind tests making sure that the volume level is exactly the same before plunking down any serious money. 

RFI can affect certain set-ups, btw. So can plugging in your stereo to the same plug as your big double door refrigerator. Do you need to spend gobs on a "power purifier" .. euh I'd try a different plug first personally.  A friend bought a "kit" dac, that had exactly the same components as a Naim dac ... sounds great for 1800 dollars less and some soldering experience. So long story ... test a new dac first on your equipment if you can.

[pschelbert]

Does anybody know if you can stream surround (5.1, 6 channels) from a USB-Disk or NAS to a Receiver like Yamaha CA-X5100 or Denon7200 and then play these 5.1 or 6 channels analog out to the speakers using the internal DAC of the receiver, i.e. not needing additional DAC?
Stereo, there is no doubt it works. But for surround up to now I could not get a clear answer. The manuals of both these receivers stero but do not mention any surround. To try its a bit costly to buy them to find out it does not work...

P.S: Playing from a BlueRay will work over HDMI thats clear with the internal Receiover DAC's.