Topic: Volume Method! (Vote) (Read 8943 times)

Pink Waters · « **on:** May 29, 2003, 04:47:38 am »

I am just proposing an idea ...
why dont you guys make the volume slider uses the wave port better than highing and lowing the main volume of the computer
thanx

Bartabedian · « **Reply #1 on:** May 29, 2003, 05:47:48 am »

I've asked for this a number of times over the past year and a half, I never got any response though. I'm left to think this is way off their radar as an essential amendment. Sorry. :-/

WP

ZRocker · « **Reply #2 on:** May 29, 2003, 06:05:44 am »

Complete app rewrite to implement (I hear).

NoCodeUK · « **Reply #3 on:** May 29, 2003, 07:48:00 am »

You also have to take into account that MC plays a lot of different formats not all of which are wave based. As an example if the Volume cointrol was linkied to Wave Out you would have no control over the volume of MIDI files as they do not use WAVE out

Adam

Pink Waters · « **Reply #4 on:** May 29, 2003, 09:31:02 am »

ok let the program have its own volume like windows media player!

Bartabedian · « **Reply #5 on:** May 29, 2003, 09:52:42 am »

Quote

You also have to take into account that MC plays a lot of different formats not all of which are wave based. As an example if the Volume cointrol was linkied to Wave Out you would have no control over the volume of MIDI files as they do not use WAVE out

Adam

But how many people are actually using MC for MIDI?
I would imagine a very (or extremely) low percentage.

NoCodeUK · « **Reply #6 on:** May 29, 2003, 09:57:58 am »

Whether people are usig it or not MC is the one that plays it all and therfore caters for everything. I use a external volume control anyway with my SB Live so this doesn't really affect me as I never use MCs volume slider. And I cannot get MC to play midi anyway

Adam

KingSparta · « **Reply #7 on:** May 29, 2003, 09:58:08 am »

well it would be nice for MC9 to convert music to Keytones to upload to your phone.

Bartabedian · « **Reply #8 on:** May 29, 2003, 10:14:24 am »

Quote

Whether people are usig it or not MC is the one that plays it all and therfore caters for everything. I use a external volume control anyway with my SB Live so this doesn't really affect me as I never use MCs volume slider. And I cannot get MC to play midi anyway

Adam

I agree, "MC, the one that plays them all" is fine, but how about the main slider goes to wav output, and the minimal few using MC to play midi will have to open the kernel mixer to control midi?

As for me, I can't even get MC to show a volume slider much less care about what it's operating. MC has never seemed to concern itself with the professional level audio outputs, just the high end of SB cards (a mistake in this age of HTPC, IMHO). But I always was irritated by it's volume control (when I had it on my SB) being tied to the main volume out rather than the wave out.

And MIDI, the only time I ever worry about that is when I'm in Pro-Tools.

MachineHead · « **Reply #9 on:** May 30, 2003, 03:35:42 pm »

Quote

Whether people are usig it or not MC is the one that plays it all and therfore caters for everything.

Except AAC...

JimH · « **Reply #10 on:** May 30, 2003, 03:36:31 pm »

Ditherman,
You've been grumpy all day. Could you leave it alone for awhile? I'm beginning to get grumpy myself.

Our guys read and respond to these posts more than 40 hours a week. If you don't get a personal reply to every post, I'm sorry.

Jim

JimH · « **Reply #11 on:** May 30, 2003, 03:37:38 pm »

Quote

well it would be nice for MC9 to convert music to Keytones to upload to your phone.

dont laugh boss youll regret it someday

LisaRCT · « **Reply #12 on:** June 01, 2003, 04:46:03 am »

Only time I really care about how MC controls the volume is when I go from listening to MP3's (especially using 'replay gain') to the TV tuner or other audio . . . .

then I get BLASTED OUT

Pink Waters · « **Reply #13 on:** June 01, 2003, 01:05:34 pm »

i think guys that if the program have its own capacity of volume would be good.. so the program donot control any volume of another at the same time..

Kharma · « **Reply #14 on:** June 02, 2003, 06:10:24 am »

I just try MC and so far it looks very good. It took me a little while to figure out this way the volume works, I thought it broke my pc because whenever I leave the program my sound would be gone! But I guess that is because MC was changing system volume. I think it would be better if this was changed also.

Thank you.

Matt · « **Reply #15 on:** June 02, 2003, 06:26:46 am »

We'll try to address this in 9.1.

Pink Waters · « **Reply #16 on:** June 02, 2003, 01:42:41 pm »

Thanks For paying attention

Pink Waters · « **Reply #17 on:** June 07, 2003, 04:57:33 pm »

Still no ... even in the new 9.1 version as you promissed!

KingSparta · « **Reply #18 on:** June 07, 2003, 05:07:23 pm »

it is not done yet.

Marko · « **Reply #19 on:** June 08, 2003, 12:23:19 am »

Quote

Still no ... even in the new 9.1 version as you promissed!

Just a tad harsh, methinks.

Matt didn't make any promises, he only said they would try and get this into 9.1, and like Kingsparta says, it ain't finished, so don't give up just yet

Kharma · « **Reply #20 on:** July 03, 2003, 10:02:57 am »

I have been out on the road for a bit... I did a search but did not see this topic recently... Has any progress been made on this?

zevele10 · « **Reply #21 on:** July 03, 2003, 10:10:46 am »

YEs
They are closing a deal with SounBlaster Extigy :
MC users can get it at half price..and monitor volume from the external souncardbox.

Of cause i'am just joking ...
.........Well not for the fact that i control volume from the Extigy box

nameless · « **Reply #22 on:** July 03, 2003, 10:27:49 am »

Quote

I am just proposing an idea ...
why dont you guys make the volume slider uses the wave port better than highing and lowing the main volume of the computer

This change would not be a welcome one to some users, and me in particular. I like keeping my wave volume at 100%, and using the master volume exclusively. This also corresponds to how the "optimize volume at startup" function works.

Having MC9 control only its own volume is a good idea, but changing it to use wave instead of master is not.

jleerigby · « **Reply #23 on:** July 03, 2003, 02:00:22 pm »

It suits me for the slider in MC to affect the master volume rather than the Wave out.

I pump the sound into a digital surround sound amp via the digital out of an Audigy2. To get good quality sound it's important not to set both controls at 100% - doing this will give distorted sound. I find that the best sound is achieved by setting one of the 2 controls to 50% and the other to 100% - the point being that you must always limit one of the controls to a max of 50%.

Since most other methods of quickly adjusting volume (cordless keyboards, windows built in volume slider etc) will affect the master control it's not realistic to expect to limit this to 50% and make occasional adjustments via the Wave out level. As few 'adjusters' touch the Wave out this is the one I keep permanently at 50% and I wouldn't want MC's slider to let me alter it.

To me, the current set up makes perfect sense as the Master is used for making the 'turn that racket down for a minute....!' type adjustment whereas the Wave out is for users like me to say 'Ok I never want my Wave out level sending to my amp at anything above 50% - period!'

nameless · « **Reply #24 on:** July 03, 2003, 02:16:47 pm »

Quote

To get good quality sound it's important not to set both controls at 100% - doing this will give distorted sound.

Indeed, this is the point of the "optimize volume at startup" feature--to obtain an improved signal-to-noise ratio (i.e. less background noise at a given volume).

kiwi · « **Reply #25 on:** July 03, 2003, 03:46:41 pm »

I too like the fact that the volume is tied to the master volume.

kiwi

Pink Waters · « **Reply #26 on:** July 04, 2003, 03:25:49 am »

You get shocked when you start up your computer after sutting down it while you were listening to a low-volume song

nameless · « **Reply #27 on:** July 04, 2003, 11:20:21 am »

Easy solution - use QuickMix to set the volume, using Task Scheduler, and/or on startup:

http://www.msaxon.com/quickmix/

C.A.T. · « **Reply #28 on:** July 14, 2003, 09:25:05 pm »

Bring it to a vote!

Pink Waters · « **Reply #29 on:** July 14, 2003, 09:39:46 pm »

Ok ... its easy ..!
anyone with me on that and wana vote .. post your vote here!

rocketsauce · « **Reply #30 on:** July 14, 2003, 11:50:07 pm »

Don't most people just use the volume knob that is on their speakers? I can't even remember the last time I used Windows volume control, much less the volume slider on MC or any other audio application.

Rob

V-Man · « **Reply #31 on:** July 15, 2003, 12:15:56 am »

I often sit at my PC listening to MC whilst playing various desktop games. Yes, I badly need a girlfriend.

I want to hear a bit of sound from the games, but not so loudly that it spoils my enjoyment of the music. A solution to this would be great.

(A girlfriend would work too.)

Kharma · « **Reply #32 on:** July 15, 2003, 02:39:15 am »

Quote

Don't most people just use the volume knob that is on their speakers? I can't even remember the last time I used Windows volume control, much less the volume slider on MC or any other audio application.

Rob

Except maybe if you want to use MC with hairstyle and remote... Then you'd have to walk over to your amp/speakers top change volume. Also some better quality sound cards and ASIO don't link to windows master.

salsbst1 · « **Reply #33 on:** July 15, 2003, 07:46:45 am »

I control the volume for MC, SageTV, ZoomPlayer and Fairy Radio all from a remote through Girder to the MAIN volume control. I vote to leave it the way it is.

jam · « **Reply #34 on:** July 15, 2003, 08:33:56 am »

Quote

Also some better quality sound cards and ASIO don't link to windows master.

Yes. Drivers for those high quality sound cards don't have volume control because volume control in digital ruins sound quality. I understand you like convenience instead of quality. It's fine. Just don't refer high quality stuff for your purpose, please. It's opposite way of thinking. Thanks.

jleerigby · « **Reply #35 on:** July 15, 2003, 09:04:05 am »

I'd like to make use of the 'Optimise volume at startup' feature but it doesn't really seem to do what it suggests. It does however do what it says in the help file which is to shove the Wave out slider to 100% and reduce the master by a corresponding amount.

This is not 'optimising the volume'. The Wave out always goes to 100% and the master volume level is dependent on where it, and the Wave out, was before you started MC. So you'll always get Wave out at 100% and master at ?.

Does anyone know what the real optimum volume levels are (i.e. both settings) for an Audigy2? When I know them I will only ever change volume via my amp.

LisaRCT · « **Reply #36 on:** July 15, 2003, 12:10:08 pm »

Simple, . . . . like most folks when I turn up my music I DO NOT want my system sounds turned up as well.
This needs to be changed to have the slider adjust other than the Master Volume

Mastiff · « **Reply #37 on:** July 15, 2003, 12:27:28 pm »

Quote

Don't most people just use the volume knob that is on their speakers?

Not for instance when using IR remotes to control MC with headphones connected directly to the sound card output (like I have it in my car for the kids' zones in the back). Or when sitting in a room without an amp, with only speakers (connected to an amp in another room)and NetRemote controlling the system. I'd really like a separate volume control for each zone.

nameless · « **Reply #38 on:** July 15, 2003, 12:39:42 pm »

Quote

Simple, . . . . like most folks when I turn up my music I DO NOT want my system sounds turned up as well.
This needs to be changed to have the slider adjust other than the Master Volume

And changing the wave volume doesn't affect the volume of system sounds? (It does!)

jam · « **Reply #39 on:** July 15, 2003, 03:28:53 pm »

Quote

And changing the wave volume doesn't affect the volume of system sounds? (It does!)

Maybe Lisa is thinking about independent internal volume like what WMP9 has. MC9 also has some kind of voulme (gain control) in DSP, I think. It doesn't produce good quality sound but at least it has the mechanism.

nameless · « **Reply #40 on:** July 15, 2003, 06:35:25 pm »

Oops--something no one thought of. If MC9 has its own, built-in volume control, will it compromise sound quality?

jam · « **Reply #41 on:** July 15, 2003, 07:33:32 pm »

Quote

If MC9 has its own, built-in volume control, will it compromise sound quality?

Yes. Any kind of calculation in digital sacrifices sound quality. If built-in volume controls 16 bits sound at 20-22 bits precision, it loses little. If it controls 16 bits sound at 16 bits precision, it loses a lot. I don't know how wave port volume is implemented, but it is possible to achieve better quality than that (I assume wave port volume controls sound in digital).

Kharma · « **Reply #42 on:** July 16, 2003, 05:32:16 am »

Well you know it can be done, as many other players utilize thier own volume control. If done properly, I don't see why it should introduce any discernable distortion. I don't notice any in WinAmp for example, and I'm sure audio apps like Sonar don't add full percentages of distortion either. If the goal of MC is to actually be a media center, it seems to make sense to me to incorporate this functionality.

Kharma · « **Reply #43 on:** July 16, 2003, 05:40:09 am »

In fact, you might even consider going as far as having separate volume controls for standard audio files (music) and video audio. Perhaps you would like to view a video and listen to music at the same time...

Kurt Young · « **Reply #44 on:** July 16, 2003, 07:17:46 am »

Not having read the entire thread, I'm just posting in reply to the subject line...

My vote, if I may, would be for MC9 to have it's own volume control, as Windows Media Player does, independent from any other volume controls in the Windows standard mixer.

The ability to map MC9's volume control to my Streamzap remote would be a major boon, especially if it could be done with a minimum of end-user configuration.

MC9 has it's own pre-amp and can adjust its own volume based on Replay Gain, Equalizer settings, and a variety of other causes in the DSP studio. I believe that if MC9 can do this, it'd be worth Matt & company's time to tie it to the volume control slider. MC9 with its own independent volume control would allow all users, not just audiophiles, to better and more precisely control their overall playback volume.

(and aye, it's shocking to hear the logon/logoff music sometimes, depending on what I've been playing in MC lately, hehe)

Mastiff · « **Reply #45 on:** July 16, 2003, 10:36:35 am »

Quote

The ability to map MC9's volume control to my Streamzap remote would be a major boon, especially if it could be done with a minimum of end-user configuration.

Exactly! And when using several zones having a volume control for each is a major deal.

nameless · « **Reply #46 on:** July 16, 2003, 12:37:04 pm »

Quote

Well you know it can be done, as many other players utilize thier own volume control. If done properly, I don't see why it should introduce any discernable distortion. I don't notice any in WinAmp for example, and I'm sure audio apps like Sonar don't add full percentages of distortion either. If the goal of MC is to actually be a media center, it seems to make sense to me to incorporate this functionality.

Sure, as an option. As usual, what one person finds does not constitute "discernable distortion", another person will cringe at. Just like some people still think 192-kbps MP3 files (or, actually, any MP3 files) sound good.

If JRiver decided to introduce "just a little distortion" by changing another aspect of the application, people would freak.

My feeling is that having MC9 control its own, independent volume is a fine idea, but only if it is an option.

And is it Winamp3 you are talking about? I dumped that thing shortly after trying it, so I can't remember if it has its own volume control. I know that Winamp 2 does not.

Kharma · « **Reply #47 on:** July 16, 2003, 02:03:35 pm »

Given that nearly every piece of music you listen to today is digitally mixed, I think programmers are capable of a volume control method where distortion should be a non issue.

I agree with your argument that peoples interpretations of distortion is subjective, but I would be more concerned of the distortion of my audio hardware than that of a well designed volume control algorythm. Consumer cards like the Audigy introduce more distortion than that. When you move up to professional level cards, and the playback equipment to back it up, then you can worry about that. And I'm sure you're not using EQ or any consumer FX like DFX or (gasp) EAX, which are far more damaging. For that matter, what basis do you have that MC itself isn't introducing distortion? I am certainly not claiming that it does (sounds good to me), but if you are going to be concerned about potential distortion from a volume control, you might as well go all the way and bench MC as well for a baseline.

As far as WinAmp (2.X not that bloated 3), you must never have used it before, the volume control is right in the middle, and WMP, Sonqique, CoolPlayer and many others have one as well.

http://classic.winamp.com/download/docs/index.jhtml?filenumber=70&language=english&layout=normal&prevlayout=normal

EDIT: To clarify, the WinAmp volume control does not tie to any windows level.

nameless · « **Reply #48 on:** July 16, 2003, 02:32:29 pm »

I have used Winamp 2 for years. Of course I know about its volume control, but it uses wave out by default (or it used to anyway), and that obviously affects the wave out volume. (According to the link you provided, "directly changing the wave audio volume". That's the Windows wave out volume!)

According to Matt, MC9 provides bitwise-perfect sound to the output, unless you taint it with DSP stuff. And no, I am not using EAX or any other stuff like that.

The point regarding distortion being introduced elsewhere is a very weak one. Of course no part of the system is perfect, but you don't go purposely introducing more and more means of distortion just because it exists elsewhere. By that logic, you'd buy cheap headphones, because hey, the sound upstream ain't perfect either.

Once again, I'm not opposed to a built-in volume control, I just don't want it forced on me, without an option to disable it, via the typical groupthink methods prevalent in this group.

Kharma · « **Reply #49 on:** July 16, 2003, 03:06:07 pm »

Just to clarify, when WinAmp specifies "wave audio volume" they are referring to the fact that WinAmps output stream (post Winamp volume) feeds into the wave audio channel. You can have your volume control panel open and watch it as you adjust WinAmp - no level meters move, but WinAmps volume changes. It has been like this since at least ver 2.0. Try the same with MC and you will see corresponding movement in the Master level.

I respect your opinion of wanting any MC volume control as an option, but I'm just trying to state that any distortion from a properly designed volume control is a mute point.

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Author Topic: Volume Method! (Vote) (Read 8943 times)

MachineHead

LisaRCT

Marko

zevele10

nameless

jleerigby

nameless

nameless

V-Man

jleerigby

LisaRCT

nameless

nameless

nameless

nameless