Topic: Copy LP to lossless audio (Read 10024 times)

1maynard · « **on:** October 21, 2016, 02:51:32 pm »

Looking for some advice on copying my large vinyl collection to digital files. I have a Audio Technica AT-LP120 USB turntable and a copy of Audacity software. I plan on copying them to a 3GB hard drive on a storage server I just bought so I can access them from anywhere on my network. I have ripped many CD's but the vinyl rip is new to me. Any advice on naming the files so I can get cover art and track info etc. I searched the wiki and forums but did not find any thing to help. I suppose I could just try it but thought some of you could give me some pointers based on your experiences and possibly save me some grief. I have used the turntable and the playback quality is very good. I could not really tell a difference between it and my old Pioneer PL518 that I normally use and the Pioneer has a Empire 4000DII cartridge with a new Shibata stylus. Thanks in advance for any tips and help you guys can provide. I have a laptop that I can dedicate to doing the conversions so I do not tie up my HTPC as this will be a long term project to convert all of them.
Tom

dtc · « **Reply #1 on:** October 21, 2016, 03:37:38 pm »

Digitizing vinyl is a lot more manual than ripping CDs. You have to local the start and stops of tracks and do whatever cleanup (clicks, hiss, etc.) you want to do. As to naming, you can use the same conventions you use for CDs.

Audacity is a good all around put it is not optimized for digitizing vinyl. I would suggest you take a look at Vinyl Studio. It takes in the file from the turntable and lets you look up the album from various sources on the Internet (including Discogs, a database of vinyls) and gives you track timings and track names for separating and tagging the tracks. It then lets you de-click and de-hiss. As with all software, it takes a little getting us to but the workflow is very easy once you get use to it. There is a tutorial on their website. It costs $29 and there is a 30 day trial. Available on both Windows and IOS. If you look on ComputerAudiophile it is the most commonly used program. Don't let the $29 price scare you, it is a great program.

As to naming, just use the same naming convention as you do for CDs - something like artist/albums/tracks. I keep my vinyl files in a separate folders from the CD rips for convenience and so there is no conflict between CD and vinyl versions. Vinyl Studio lets you specify the directory and track naming scheme that it uses to output files, just like MC does for ripping CDs. If you use the same format as you use for CDs, MC will be able to import them with no change, other than pointing to the vinyl folder.

In MC, I have a separate user defined tag that has the source - like CD, Vinyl, Internet Radio, Download, etc. That makes it easy to know the source in MC and lets you identify CDs and Vinyls in your views.

Be sure to clean your records first.

So, my first suggestion is to look at Vinyl Studio and its tutorial. It gives you an idea of workflow and how to use the tools. Its lookup feature makes the timing and tagging much easier than using Audacity.

1maynard · « **Reply #2 on:** October 21, 2016, 03:55:31 pm »

dtc, thanks for the advice. After I posted I started looking into using the Audacity software and it looked like it was going to be quite a learning curve. The price does not scare me, I just want something that works well. My biggest concern was getting the correct information in the files so later playback will be easier to us especially for the wife. I will check out Vinyl Studio and also Computer Audiophile. Thanks again. I hope to get started on this project tomorrow. I just had cataract surgery so I am confined to the house for the next six weeks so I plan on working on my HTPC doing some upgrades and also working on digitizing my vinyl. The wife and I really enjoy listening to vinyl but there are times when it would be easier to just set up a library to play for a couple of hours while working etc. Thanks again
Tom

dtc · « **Reply #3 on:** October 21, 2016, 04:42:07 pm »

If you need help with Vinyl Studio let me know.

Most people think a $29 program cannot be any good. But VS is the real deal. On CA there are many people who have done hundreds, if not thousands, of records with it.

Good luck.

gdrichardson · « **Reply #4 on:** October 21, 2016, 06:01:01 pm »

I have digitized hundreds of LPs with Vinyl Studio (after starting with Audicity) with great results and strongly recommend it.

DJLegba · « **Reply #5 on:** October 22, 2016, 06:56:41 am »

Wow, thanks for the information here. Years ago I digitized a couple of LPs and decided it was just not worth the effort. Vinyl Studio makes it so easy it's actually kind of fun.

1maynard · « **Reply #6 on:** October 22, 2016, 06:07:02 pm »

I have spent some time looking into the analog to digital conversions and how much better results will I see if I use a A to D converter such as the Tascam DA-3000? They are quite pricey As I stated in my first post I have a Audio-Technica AT-LP 120-USB turntable, Is the Tascam noticeably better Or can I do an acceptable job without it? I do not mind spending the money if it will really make a difference. What about any other converters? I appreciate all of the comments and help so far and am looking forward to getting into digitizing my collection. Thing is I only want to do this once so if I need to spend some more money I will. I have looked into Vinyl Studio and will be buying a copy as soon as I decide on what computer to use. The laptop I was going to use does not have enough processor power.

(edit) I was studying the instructions that came with my turntable and the built in A to D converter is 16 bit 44.1 kHz. so I guess I will start looking for a Tascam or Korg A to D converter.

dtc · « **Reply #7 on:** October 22, 2016, 08:35:21 pm »

It depends on the rest of your system. Do you have another turntable and what is the rest of your system? As a test, I would use the usb turntable and Vinyl Studio to do a couple of albums and see how you like the sound. The goal is to have the digitized file sound pretty much the same as the turntable.

The Tascam DA-3000 is certainly a better A to D than the one in your usb turntable and is allows you to digitize at higher sample rates, e.g. at 88 KHz or 96 KHz or even 176/192KH. Many hear a significant difference between digitizing at 44 KHz and 96 KHz and also some slight improvement going from 96 to 192 KHz. But, you need a decent turntable and cartridge and A to D to hear the differences in sample rate. The DAC and rest of your system clearly also matter.

As to DACs, in addition to the DA-3000 there are several other options from Tascam, ranging from the handhelds like the DR-05 ($100) and DR-100kmiii ($200) and the DR-60mkiii($300) which is DAC and video recorder. Korg has a competitor to the DC-3000 in the DS- DAC-10 ($600). All of these do at least 96 KHz and the DR-100 and the Korg do 192KHz. There are other options in these price ranges in you want to go the route of a separate A to D.

down4jazz · « **Reply #8 on:** October 22, 2016, 09:57:06 pm »

Not sure if you have a RCM or not, but if not...
If you have a large LP collection, I would invest in a (RCM) vacuum assisted record cleaner. The RCM in many ways equaled my cartridge upgrade, it was that profound. If you're going to spend hours per LP, then you may as well start off with a really clean LP.

blgentry · « **Reply #9 on:** October 23, 2016, 08:31:24 am »

Quote from: 1maynard on October 22, 2016, 06:07:02 pm

I have spent some time looking into the analog to digital conversions and how much better results will I see if I use a A to D converter such as the Tascam DA-3000?

The A/D conversion is a really large part of the process. Pretty much every modern A/D converter is Delta Sigma. Much like pretty much every modern D/A converter is also Delta Sigma. Both of which are inexact approximations (broadly speaking).

My favorite audio company is said to be working on a multi-bit A/D converter, aimed at pretty much this exact market: Digitizing vinyl. I'll bet it gets used in some pro studios also, where they really want to have an old school, exact, correct A/D conversion.

Schiit Audio's digital designer gave a really big hint a few weeks ago, saying their A/D will be available early this coming year (I think). If I read the hint correctly.

Brian.

1maynard · « **Reply #10 on:** October 23, 2016, 11:14:39 am »

Quote from: dtc on October 22, 2016, 08:35:21 pm

It depends on the rest of your system. Do you have another turntable and what is the rest of your system? As a test, I would use the USB turntable and Vinyl Studio to do a couple of albums and see how you like the sound. The goal is to have the digitized file sound pretty much the same as the turntable.

The Tascam DA-3000 is certainly a better A to D than the one in your usb turntable and is allows you to digitize at higher sample rates, e.g. at 88 KHz or 96 KHz or even 176/192KH. Many hear a significant difference between digitizing at 44 KHz and 96 KHz and also some slight improvement going from 96 to 192 KHz. But, you need a decent turntable and cartridge and A to D to hear the differences in sample rate. The DAC and rest of your system clearly also matter.

As to DACs, in addition to the DA-3000 there are several other options from Tascam, ranging from the handhelds like the DR-05 ($100) and DR-100kmiii ($200) and the DR-60mkiii($300) which is DAC and video recorder. Korg has a competitor to the DC-3000 in the DS- DAC-10 ($600). All of these do at least 96 KHz and the DR-100 and the Korg do 192KHz. There are other options in these price ranges in you want to go the route of a separate A to D.

I plan on trying the USB turntable, In our home theater listening room set up I am using a Pioneer PL-518 TT with an Empire 4000-Dll cartridge with a Shibata stylus fed to my Integra 70.4 AVR and out to Klipsch reference speakers and sub. It is a 7-1 system but I listen to my vinyl in 2 channel stereo using only the front L+R speakers and the sup. I think it is a good sounding system for our needs. I have been studying DAC's and hope to soon decide what way to go. I like the idea of using the DA-3000 as I can set it up on a table along with the TT next to my laptop and do the copies then move them to my storage hard drives. When I have finished with the bulk of the conversions I would then mount the DA-3000 in my components rack and hook it up to my system. One question, can the turntable be plugged directly into the DA-3000 or will I still have to use a preamp?

dtc · « **Reply #11 on:** October 23, 2016, 03:09:16 pm »

The Pioneer/Empire will most likely outperform the usb turntable.

The DA-3000 needs something. like half a volt for input - it does not have a built in phono pre-amp. So, you will need to use your Integra phono input between the TT and the Tascam, assuming you have a line level output from the AVR - maybe zone 2 since most AVRs do nothave a tape out these days? I believe the Empire is a moving coil cartridge, so I am a little surprised the Integra moving magnet input works with it. Typically a mc cartridge is in the microvolt range, versus the millivolt range of a mm. The Integra phono input is meant for millivolt, not microvolt. I may be wrong about the cartride. It may be mm.

I like the idea of digitizing to a disk and then transferring to a PC for processing. That is what I do with my Korg MR-2000.

I am pretty sure you cannot use the Tascam as a DAC connected to a PC running JRiver. It only takes a disk drive as input on its usb.

Edit - You could also use a step up transformer to go from the cartridge to the Tascam if needed.

1maynard · « **Reply #12 on:** October 23, 2016, 08:59:43 pm »

The Empire is a mm type cartridge and it works perfectly with my Integra. The sound is very clean. Today I downloaded Vinyl Studio and tried a recording with my Audio-Technics USB Turntable and the sound quality was actually quite good. I am going to try to use the Pioneer through my Integra to record the same album for a comparison. I am sure that the Pioneer will sound better but I wonder how the Audio-Technica would do if I also ran it through the Integra first. I guess I need to try it also. I really would rather not have to use the Integra as a pre amp to do the conversions as I want to set up a work station next to my recliner so I can work on them as I watch tv in the evenings. Looks like I need to buy a phono preamp and possibly a DA-3000. What are your thoughts on the ART USB Phono Plus preamp to use with the DA-3000? or can I get by with something simpler.
Thanks

dtc · « **Reply #13 on:** October 24, 2016, 10:18:18 am »

The Art Audio unit is both a phono pre-amp and a A to D converter. Since you only need a phono-preamp I would suggest getting a dedicated one. In that same price range, there are units from Project, Esoteric and Music Hall, for example. The Needledoctor website has all three. With the level you are talking about, the DA-3000 may be more than you need.

I think you should also consider the Tascam DR-05 (96KHz) and DR-100mkiii (192 KHz) They are available at Guitar Center and they have a 30 refund policy. The DR-100mkiii is a new product and has usb to transfer files to a PC. Looks like a nice little product and has a remote control and optional AC adapter. You might give one or the other a try before spending a lot more money.

A long pair of RCA cables might make the Integra usable.

If you like the sound from your turntable through the Integra, with the remote control of DR-100 you could still use the Integra in your system and record to the recorder. No need for a computer to do that. Then you can work on the other files from your workstation from your recliner while also recording a new album. You are always going to have to get up when the record needs flipping anyway. When done recording several albums, just take the SD card out of the recorder and move it to the PC for uploading. I typically have several files waiting to be processed while recording several more new files to disk.

1maynard · « **Reply #14 on:** October 24, 2016, 10:50:57 am »

dtc, thanks for the advice. Do you have any thoughts on using a Marantz PMD 580 recorder? I have ran across several at a very good price and they look like they have most all of the features of the DA-3000. Below are the features of it. I will check with needle doctor for a pre amp. I have used him before for needles. I plan on doing a comparison of the Pioneer Pl-518 and the Audio Technica turntables after I get a preamp. If I feel that the Pioneer is noticeably better I will just remove it from the media center and use it to do my recordings. Thanks again
Tom

http://denonpro.com/products/view/pmd580#.WA4p6egrKM8
Choice of 24-bit or 16-bit Recording onto Compact Flash (CF) Card, Ethernet Connectivity and Internal Web Browser, Automatic Archiving of Recorded Files, Easy Recording ,MP3 and WAV File Formats, Menu-selectable Quality Settings
Balanced XLR Inputs and Outputs, AES/EBU and S/PDIF Digital Inputs and Outputs, RS232 Control Port, No Moving Parts
FAT32 File Structure, Contact Closures with Menu-driven Controlures of it.

dtc · « **Reply #15 on:** October 24, 2016, 11:17:30 am »

Looks like the Denon/Marantz only does 44KHz PCM.

EDIT : Looks like it is a discontinued product. 44.1 KHz is not competitive these days.

1maynard · « **Reply #16 on:** October 24, 2016, 01:43:06 pm »

Quote from: dtc on October 24, 2016, 11:17:30 am

Looks like the Denon/Marantz only does 44KHz PCM.

EDIT : Looks like it is a discontinued product. 44.1 KHz is not competitive these days.

After further research I decided that the Marantz was not the way to go. It had some features I liked such as network capabilities. But the 44.1 kHz was the deal breaker. I just pulled the trigger on a factory refurbished Tascam DA-3000 at a very good price. so when it comes in later this week I can start recording. Question, when recording to the DA-3000 do you name the album and artist before recording? If so can this be done with a USB keyboard?
Thanks
Tom

dtc · « **Reply #17 on:** October 24, 2016, 02:29:04 pm »

The DA-3000 supports a usb keyboard.

For file naming, the idea in the recorder is just to set a filename that will be easy to identify later - the album name should be fine. You will set the final album name, artist, track name, etc. in Vinyl Studio.

I would recommend not trying to use the track dividing function (either automatic or manual) in the unit. It is time consuming and prone to error. Just record one big file. (More on that in a second). You simply pause recording when the first side is done and then resume when side two starts. You can also do each side separately if you want. Then you move the big file to the PC for processing by Vinyl Studio.

The unit records a maximum of 2 GB file. If the file goes over 2 GB it will create a second file. You can use the Tascam Hi-Res software editor to join the files back together into one large file. You then feed that large file into VS. If you want to avoid the Tascam software, you can record each side as a separate file and add the 2 files as different sides in VS. I find handling everything as one file in VS is easier, but both methods work.

You can download the DA-3000 manual from the Tascam webpage for the DA-3000, under downloads.

Good luck. There is a learning curve, but it should go pretty fast.

1maynard · « **Reply #18 on:** October 24, 2016, 04:29:18 pm »

I downloaded the Tascam DA-3000 manual a short while ago, Just have not had a chance to look through it. I plan on studying it before the unit arrives so I will have a better idea on how to set and use the recorder. I have a spare wireless keyboard so I am all set there. If you do not mind I will probably pick your brain once I start using it.
Thanks again for your help and advice it is much appreciated.
Tom

dtc · « **Reply #19 on:** October 24, 2016, 05:41:57 pm »

Glad to help. Let me know if you need any help.

Good luck.

1maynard · « **Reply #20 on:** October 27, 2016, 09:47:07 pm »

I received the Ta scam DA-3000 today and it sounds fantastic. I did a test recording and I think I will be very pleased with the results. The unit was supposed to be factory refurbished but I can see no evidence of it ever having been used or opened up. While waiting on it I decided to do some upgrades to my Audio-Technica turntable to see if I could improve the sound. I already thought it sounded very good for the price but now it plays fantastic. It sounds just as good as my Pioneer PL-518. First I remover the factory preamp and USB output. I then wired in a pair of shielded RCA leads and removed a resister that they used between the grounds on the leads from the cartridge. It now has true left and right signals going to my preamp. I them swapped the headshell and empire cartridge from my Pioneer PL-518,I then set the tracking force using a tracking scale and then I set the cartridge alignment using a protractor That I downloaded and printed out. It uses the Stevensen A template. I was really surprised how much these changes improved the sound of this inexpensive turntable and other than the cost of a new cartridge and a preamp that I needed anyways most of them just required some time. dtc, can you recommend a good replacement cartridge. Most recommend the Shure MX97xE, others the Audio-Technica AT-440MLa AT There is a significant price difference between them. Are either comparable to my empire D4000? Thanks
Tom

dtc · « **Reply #21 on:** October 28, 2016, 08:39:20 am »

Glad the recording process is working for you. It takes some time, but you can get excellent results. The DA-3000 is a fine unit.

I am not much help of that level of cartridge, unfortunately.

Happy digitizing!

DaQi · « **Reply #22 on:** October 30, 2016, 12:31:40 pm »

I did this a couple years ago and can definitely recommend using Vinyl Studio as it made it relatively easy. Make no mistake though this is a much more manual task than ripping CDs. I bought a Tascam DR-05 digital recorder and used the audio in on it to record 96khz/24bit audio and have been very happy with the results.

Before recording I would do random needle drop samples of the album to get the levels set. Once I did a couple I had a good feeling for where to set the levels and where to sample the album to avoid clipping.

1maynard · « **Reply #23 on:** November 01, 2016, 06:00:27 pm »

At this time I have a large number of my LP's recorded to the Tascam DA-3000 on a 64 gb CF card. Once I figured out the correct way to create and name the folders it is pretty easy to record to them. Yesterday I took the CF card out of the recorder and plugged it into my Integra DTR-70.4 AV receiver and am happy to report they sound just fantastic. I am recording Flac files at 24/192 for the best possible recording. I am really pleased with the DA-3000, it seems to be a great recorder. I have only imported one album into Vinyl Studio and I can see that There will defiantly be a learning curve to do the declicks and noise removal The album I recorded had quite a few pops and clicks and I was able to clean it up fairly well. Most of my collection is very clean so I do not expect to have to spend a lot of time on them individually. Most time will be getting track information and album art etc, and inserting track breaks. Once I fill the CF card I will transfer the files to a USB hard drive I have then start on editing and saving the files.

DaQi · « **Reply #24 on:** March 01, 2017, 06:31:52 pm »

Track breaks and album art is where Vinyl Studio pays for itself. It will first of all make educated guessed on the track breaks and also do all the track tagging based on looking up the album name. From that point zooming into the waveform makes it very easy to find the track breaks. This to me was the main reason to use Vinyl Studio as it made this work flow much easier.

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Author Topic: Copy LP to lossless audio (Read 10024 times)