Topic: MC 22 Sound Quality using DLNA (Read 13821 times)

sandrei · « **on:** August 05, 2016, 09:03:49 pm »

I have just upgraded my MC 21 to MC 22 and to be honest I am disappointed.
I am playing HiRes flac files on DLNA over network and the sound quality is worse, some portions a little bit distorted, and overall the sound lost its richness and dynamics.
It does not sounds really bad, but definitely is not a HiRes sound anymore.
I have checked the settings and they are exactly the same in both MC21 and MC22, I tried to play the same song without touching any button, and MC 21 sounds a lot better.

JimH · « **Reply #1 on:** August 06, 2016, 12:54:42 am »

Please check your settings again. Something has to be different.

sandrei · « **Reply #2 on:** August 06, 2016, 01:47:43 am »

Well I have checked 3 times the settings before posting this topic, and I have checked twice after. I was more than convinced that you will say that my settings are different.
No sir, settings are identical, unless there is something changed in MC22 that I am not aware of.
But let me tell you something, this is not the first time when I am upgrading, and one of the things that I really liked at MC was that all the settings were imported into the new version. It was a bit like upgrading iOS on an iPhone, you do not need to worry about your settings. I really liked that, very few Windows software has this capability.
Apparently this is not the case anymore, if you question the settings of the two versions installed on my computer, because believe me or not, I did not touch anything in the new installation of MC22.

pschelbert · « **Reply #3 on:** August 06, 2016, 06:56:59 am »

Hi

I just run MC21 and MC22 on Headphones (Stax SR404 and Sennheiser HD800).
I use ASIO. I have not noticed any degradation.

I noted earlier however that WASAPI is problematic. It may change the sound due to Windows Sound System which is involved.
With ASIO I have never had any such troubles. I can think of a problem with WASAPI and the Windows Sound System.
You may check all the settings in Windows Sound, particularly which "in-" and "output" Windows uses.

Peter

sandrei · « **Reply #4 on:** August 06, 2016, 02:21:50 pm »

Windows Sound has nothing to do in this situation, I am using DLNA with an external renderer, the sound is streamed through network.

I am not an expert but as far as I know in this arrangement the signal is not processed inside the PC, but inside external renderer, there is no Windows driver to alter the signal between the file and the speaker. Actually this is what I really like about DLNA, your quality is only affected by the quality of the audio components you use , not by some Windows driver that was crippled by a Microsoft update.

You are mentioning ASIO or WASAPI, you probably are already listening to a degraded version of the sound, altered by these drivers, so there is no difference for you. I may be wrong, but that's how I understand that the things work.

I am not using any DSP Studio feature and the output is set to PCM 24bit 96 kHz, same as the bitrate and depth of the song, but I tried also with "Same as source" setting in both MC21 and MC22. Same renderer, same settings, same network, same song.

AndrewFG · « **Reply #5 on:** August 06, 2016, 03:32:38 pm »

I guess you have the MC UPNP DLNA server set to convert to MP3, or you have some DSP conversions going on.

pschelbert · « **Reply #6 on:** August 06, 2016, 03:40:19 pm »

Hi

in DNLA I have no details how the signal-flow (data-flow) goes.
However it must go somewhere through JRiver and some computer (Mac or Win) with their operating systems. Going out from JRiver to Ethernet again you have some drivers involved.

The post before may be just the answer how to fix it. Default is set to mp3!

Peter

sandrei · « **Reply #7 on:** August 06, 2016, 05:29:46 pm »

AndrewFG, pschelbert,

Why should I convert to mp3 a High Resolution audio lossless file?! It should be really dumb from my part to convert a High Resolution sound to a lossy format than start to complain that it does not sounds good anymore.
I already said that I am not using any DSP. Unless there is some new setting in MC22 that I am not aware of, and is set to some default value that does not suits my needs.
And speaking about drivers, let's assume you are right, both MC21 and MC22 are using exactly the same drivers, so why I am getting different results? No, the difference must be somewhere inside MC22.
Again I have to say, I am speaking about high resolution file, that traces back to the studio master recording. No, if you are using a mp3 or even a 16 bit flac file there is no difference, because what I am not hearing in MC22 is already lost in the conversion.

blgentry · « **Reply #8 on:** August 06, 2016, 05:48:41 pm »

^ You're misunderstanding. By default, MC has a DLNA definition. That default definition converts everything to MP3. Go check and see which definition you are using:

Tools > Options > Media Network > Add or configure DLNA servers > (select) > Audio > format

If you have more than one, you can assign a DLNA definition to a device by right clicking on the device name in Playing Now and choosing the "associate" menu item.

Good luck.

Brian.

sandrei · « **Reply #9 on:** August 06, 2016, 06:24:13 pm »

But I already said that I am using PCM 24 bit output format.
Don't you read my post before posting response?

blgentry · « **Reply #10 on:** August 06, 2016, 06:31:49 pm »

^ Yes, I read the entire thread, including all of your posts. It was not clear that you had customized your DLNA configuration. You could have said so when Andrew suggested that you might be using MP3 conversion for your output.

Have you associated your DNLA configuration with your renderer?

Brian.

sandrei · « **Reply #11 on:** August 06, 2016, 07:40:11 pm »

I did not changed any settings, whatever MC 22 imported from MC21 is there.
If I "associate my DLNA configuration with my renderer"? You are starting to talk foreign language to me.
My problem is very simple (I think), what used to work in MC21 does not in MC22, and no, it is not any settings fault because they are exactly the same

PAR57 · « **Reply #12 on:** August 07, 2016, 06:02:35 am »

Are you running Windows 10? The dates of your thread coincide with MS starting the Anniversary upgrade programme for Win 10 ( v.1607). There are already complaints from users and from DAC manufacturers that the upgrade installs faulty USB drivers with resulting poor sound. Unless you use USB drivers as supplied by e.g. your DAC manufacturer you could be suffering from this problem.

Of course Windows 10 Home installs the upgrade in the background automatically without your necessarily being aware and it cannot be prevented without a work around. I understand that once Anniversary ids installed it is possible to revert to the previous version for the first 10 days only. I am unsure if this facility is available in all version of Win 10.

Incidentally I have the Anniversary package installed but as I use my DAC manufacturer's USB driver I have had no degradation of sound.

AndrewFG · « **Reply #13 on:** August 07, 2016, 10:24:22 am »

Quote from: sandrei on August 06, 2016, 05:29:46 pm

Why should I convert to mp3 a High Resolution audio lossless file?! It should be really dumb from my part to convert a High Resolution sound to a lossy format than start to complain that it does not sounds good anymore.

Indeed. But for the avoidance of doubt please check your settings as shown in the screenshot attached.

Spike1000 · « **Reply #14 on:** August 07, 2016, 02:35:08 pm »

Quote from: PAR57 on August 07, 2016, 06:02:35 am

Are you running Windows 10? The dates of your thread coincide with MS starting the Anniversary upgrade programme for Win 10 ( v.1607). There are already complaints from users and from DAC manufacturers that the upgrade installs faulty USB drivers with resulting poor sound. Unless you use USB drivers as supplied by e.g. your DAC manufacturer you could be suffering from this problem.

Interesting. Do you have any links to discussions about the 'faulty' Anniversary drivers and any fixes/workarounds or acknowledgement of the issue from Microsoft?

Spike

AndrewFG · « **Reply #15 on:** August 07, 2016, 03:36:35 pm »

^
Just to point out that the OP is talking about DLNA, so all discussions about Windows drivers are irrelevant.

sandrei · « **Reply #16 on:** August 08, 2016, 12:56:55 am »

Finally someone that realizes that the problem is not with any Windows drivers. Thank you Andrew for pointing out.

As for the screen cap, I do not want to post one of my settings, simply because I do not want, you have to believe me, I am using PCM 24 bit output format.
I am at the 3rd version of MC so at least these settings I know now.
And no, I did not upgrade any Windows, I am one of those that are happy with Windows 7 and I fought to keep it.

JimH · « **Reply #17 on:** August 08, 2016, 12:59:33 am »

Quote from: AndrewFG on August 06, 2016, 03:32:38 pm

I guess you have the MC UPNP DLNA server set to convert to MP3, or you have some DSP conversions going on.

This is the most likely cause. Check the setting for conversion on the server.

sandrei · « **Reply #18 on:** August 08, 2016, 10:13:32 pm »

Jim, very "political correct" answer, yeah this is the most likely cause. Still, it is not.

MC 21.0.83 works much better for me, I am starting to ask myself why I did the upgrade to MC22.
I have another question now, do you think it is worth to wait for a next version to see where the things go, or I shall ask for a refund?

blgentry · « **Reply #19 on:** August 09, 2016, 08:46:44 am »

Sandrei,

Please try to see this from an outside perspective for a moment. You come here and make an unusual claim about sound quality. Then, you get upset and combative when any suggestions are made. You refuse to post a screen shot because "I don't want to". Then you declare MC22 as the definitive cause of your problem and ask if it will be fixed, or if you will get your money back.

From an outside perspective, this all seems pretty difficult to believe. If you're willing to work with the people here who are trying to help you, maybe you can get this figured out.

Please understand this also: The only person in this thread who is being paid in any way to be here is Jim, who is the president of the company. Everyone else here is just a customer who's trying to help you.

Brian.

sandrei · « **Reply #20 on:** August 09, 2016, 10:28:31 pm »

I am really sorry, I confused this discussion forum with a software support, which obviously it is not, as you clearly said.
I want to thank you the other customers for having an opinion, in my case did not helped, but it not their fault.
It is obvious that my expectations were not justified.
This will definitely be my last post here, you can close it or delete it, whatever suits you.

JimH · « **Reply #21 on:** August 09, 2016, 11:08:57 pm »

I'm sorry you're not happy.

gvanbrunt · « **Reply #22 on:** August 10, 2016, 10:02:57 am »

OK no one else will say it, so I will:

You have a bunch of people trying to help you resolve your situation including a DLNA expert (Andrew) and the president of the of the software company itself. However, you are not willing to answer questions or post screenshots so they can track down your issue. And you think that is poor support?

You seem to want someone to magically resolve the situation for you - that isn't going to happen no matter what software you use. There may well be some setting that isn't being transferred between the 2 versions, but since you are the only person that has seen the issue, they are not going to find it without your assistance.

Complain if you wish, but with other software you will be talking to some low level support drone and it is very likely your issues will never be solved. At least with JRiver people are trying to help you.

pschelbert · « **Reply #23 on:** August 10, 2016, 03:07:07 pm »

Hi

sonically JRiver is top MC21 and MC22, I could not notice any difference of these two, over DNLA not and not via ASIO/USB.
You may compare to foobar2000 which sonically is equal but is by far not as rich in functionality and especially not as userfriendly.
For what you pay you get a very great bundle of functionality.

I use only part (audio but surround multichannel, convolving, VST, audio-player, audio library), however its worth the money.

Peter

sandrei · « **Reply #24 on:** January 15, 2017, 01:29:34 am »

Ok it looks like JRiver guys fixed it 2 versions down the road. I am using now MC 22.0.54 and it sounds the same like 21.0.83 I was using before upgrading.
Actually I noticed a change in the DLNA setup interface in the next revision, but looks like nobody wanted to recognize that actually there was a problem and you fixed it.
Or who knows, maybe I got a few months older and my hearing got less acute and don't hear the difference anymore.

One little advice if I am allowed to the administrators: please try to understand that not everybody that comes here is an expert in digital audio terms, and yes, there are lots of sources on the internet to learn, but maybe not everybody can dedicate all their available time searching for knowledge about the technical terms you use here.

As for the shiny knight that jumped to defend the "bunch of people trying to help" a couple of replies above I think this is not a political debate forum, right? If you do not have anything good to say usually is better to not say anything.

JimH · « **Reply #25 on:** January 15, 2017, 06:06:57 am »

Time to close this thread now. Thanks, everyone, for helping.

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Author Topic: MC 22 Sound Quality using DLNA (Read 13821 times)