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[madbrain]

I am using MC22 and the above Yamaha receiver.
I have an HTPC connected via HDMI to the receiver. Receiver is then connected via HDMI to a display (projector).

Currently, the audio from MC is playing fine via HDMI . This is with the exception of DSD, which cannot be passed over HDMI - apparently a limitation of GPU/GPU drivers. I can play DSD only if I transcode it, but this is an expensive computation that brings the HTPC down to its knees.
The specs for the RX-A1000 say that it can receive DSD over HDMI.Actually they don't. It can only receive DSD over HDMI, not DLNA.

I have not had any luck getting DLNA to work at all - not just to play DSD, but to play anything else.

I want to use the Media center UI to select files to play using the HTPC, but get the audio to play to the receiver over DLNA instead of HDMI.

Is this possible ? And if so, how ?

[madbrain]

FYI, I have upgraded the firmware on the Yamaha receiver to the latest 3.70 .

No matter what I try in JRiver Media center, when I select the RX-A1000 device and then try to play a file, I get the following error message :

"There was a problem controlling the selected DLNA device. Double-check your device, server and network settings."

And then I get another pop-up :

"Something went wrong with playback".

I have attached the log. I was just trying to play a stereo WMA file. Same problem trying to play DSD from SACD ISO .

I tried 2 different possible DLNA servers in Media Center - Audiophile and Legacy uPNP . Neither worked.

[jkolker]

Have you tried sending it an MP3 file?  You said it's not working at all, but you might try to send it a basic file to see if that works, at least.

[jkolker]

Page 144 of the instruction manual has a list of music types it can play over the network.

[AndrewFG]

Try setting the MC DLNA server audio output to Always Convert L16 No Header.

[madbrain]

Have you tried sending it an MP3 file?  You said it's not working at all, but you might try to send it a basic file to see if that works, at least.

I have tried MP3 also, and it doesn't work either.

[styxx10]

I have the same Amp, and previously i used dlna with JRiver to play my music. i now use a HDMI connection,as i wanted the best quality i could get.I just wanted to tell you it will work and it must be a setting you have incorrect. I will have a look at my settings as my dlna still plays and try to help you....might be better going to private messages and when you get the settings correct post them here for others...

[madbrain]

Try setting the MC DLNA server audio output to Always Convert L16 No Header.

Just tried that. Unfortunately, no luck either. Errors unchanged.

[madbrain]

I have the same Amp, and previously i used dlna with JRiver to play my music. i now use a HDMI connection,as i wanted the best quality i could get.I just wanted to tell you it will work and it must be a setting you have incorrect. I will have a look at my settings as my dlna still plays and try to help you....might be better going to private messages and when you get the settings correct post them here for others...

Thanks, I will send you a PM.

[madbrain]

OK, I figured it out ...
Apparently, the receiver must have the "PC" input selected in order for DLNA to work.
When I do that, I am able to stream music to it that way from a PC running JRiver in a different room. It sounds awful with a bit of a hissing sound, not sure why.

The problem is that my main use case is to stream music from a PC connected to the receiver itself over HDMI. The only display is the projector which is connected to the receiver's HDMI out. So, when I click to play in JRiver on that PC, DLNA does not work because the receiver's focus is on the HDMI input to which that PC is connected. I'm not sure how to work around this. I would need to be able to tell the receiver to display the video from the HDMI input on the PC, but get the sound over DLNA. There are separate wires for network and HDMI so this should be possible in theory ... I just don't see any setting in the Yamaha that would allow it.

[AndrewFG]

Please download the DMRA from my sig, and post the renderer report here..

[jmone]

I've 4 Yami AVR's (different models) and while I did play with their DLNA Capabilities I always ended up with using a PC to feed them the Video/Audio.  I don't think you are able to take the Video from HDMI and the Audio from DLNA... and even if you could, you would need to adjust lipsync as it will be out... and DLNA timing tends to drift leading to lots of frustration.

If I was you I'd give the DLNA idea away and look at:
1) Upgrading the HTPC to handle your Audio Decoding
2) Create a Stacked version of the Audio that can be sent over HDMI.

That said I'm happy to test and report back.  Do you have a sample DSD file (or details and I'll see if I can find a sample)?

Thanks
Nathan

[madbrain]

Thanks for the reply! Response inline below.

I've 4 Yami AVR's (different models) and while I did play with their DLNA Capabilities I always ended up with using a PC to feed them the Video/Audio.  I don't think you are able to take the Video from HDMI and the Audio from DLNA... any even if you could you would need to adjust lipsync as it will be out... and DLNA timing tends to drift leading to lots of frustration.

I'm trying this strictly for audio playback, not audio/video. So I'm not concerned about any lipsync issue.

If I was you I'd give the DLNA idea away and look at:
1) Upgrading the HTPC to handle your Audio Decoding

My goal was to make it a completely silent HTPC actually, but that is very difficult to do with the cost of the DSD to PCM processing. It consumes a bunch even on an 8-core FX-8350 FX-8120 .

2) Create a Stacked version of the Audio that can be sent over HDMI.

I assume you mean, preconvert to PCM, right ? Yes, it's a possibility, though it will take a lot of additional storage. I have 400 GB worth of SACD ISOs (ripped with a PS3). So it would cost an extra 400 GB. I suppose it's not that much. I need to come up with a low power storage server solution in a different room, though. I have something quite powerful that works, but the watts are just way too much.

That said I'm happy to test and report back, do you have a sample DSD file (or details and I'll see if I can find a sample)?

Yes.
You can find some DSF files that JRiver MC will play at
http://dsdmaster.blogspot.com/p/blog-page.html . Those are 2-channels, but that would be a good start.
I couldn't find any multi-channel free samples so far.

[jmone]

Thanks for the Extra Info (your comments are correct) and I'll be able to test tomorrow.  Reason I ask about the test clip, is I have some samples from here including a 352.8kHz 64Bit 5ch DSF being converted to 48kHz 24Bit 2CH and it only chews up 15% of CPU (i7-3770K so not much different to yours) on initial load then MC drops to about 5% on my office rig (but will test with one of the HTPC over HDMI to a Yami later - what is the GPU you are using for the HDMI Audio?). 

Another idea, Have you tried using Tools --> Options --> Audio --> Memory Playback : Load decoded file into memory?  this will add a small amount of "buffering" time for each track as MC loads the decoded file into memory but it then commences playback.

[madbrain]

Please download the DMRA from my sig, and post the renderer report here..

Thanks. I tried. It reports that the receiver supports, FLAC, MP3, M4A, WAV .
I'm not able to play any of the tests, however. I think that's because I tried it from the HTPC connected through HDMI.
I would have to set the receiver to the PC (DLNA) input and run DMRA from another PC .

[madbrain]

Thanks for the Extra Info (your comments are correct) and I'll be able to test tomorrow.  Reason I ask about the test clip, is I have some samples from here including a 352.8kHz 64Bit 5ch DSF being converted to 48kHz 24Bit 2CH and it only chews up 15% of CPU (i7-3770K so not much different to yours) on initial load then MC drops to about 5% on my office rig (but will test with one of the HTPC over HDMI to a Yami later - what is the GPU you are using for the HDMI Audio?). 

Another idea, Have you tried using Tools --> Options --> Audio --> Memory Playback : Load decoded file into memory?  this will add a small amount of "buffering" time for each track as MC loads the decoded file into memory but it then commences playback.

Thanks. I tried your file.
My biggest problem is that I can't play any DSD at all in "power saver" profile.
The AMD CPU throttles down to about 1.4 GHz in this mode and never throttles back up. CPU usage in task manager is a flat 9%. Eventually, the music is interrupted in JRiver due to buffering, and it pauses for 4-5 seconds for computations.
This makes no sense to me at all - seems like something wrong with the thread scheduler/priorities. This has been my experience playing any DSD on this machine, not just this file. Not sure if it's an OS bug, BIOS bug, or JRiver bug.

If I use the high performance power profile, it's fine, and the CPU usage graph looks different - not flat.
Balanced mode also works without pause.
However,  the fans go way up in high perf mode. And since a small HTPC case, these are small diameter/high RPM fans, and they interfere with the enjoyment of the audio.
FYI, I was playing in 5.1 (source number of channels) transcoded to 5.1 over HDMI.
Yamaha receiver "audio signal" info page was showing 5.1 / 192 kHz signal input.
As far as GPU, I am using a fanless GT 630/384 cores (Maxwell) , PCIe 2.0 x8 card.

I tried the memory playback option you suggested, and it didn't help with the issue in power saver profile.

[madbrain]

Right after this test playing the DSF, I tried playing SACD ISO on the same HTPC. The ISO resides on a remote Media center library in my office.
My favorite SACD is Biggs's Bach Toccatas on Sony . It's a quadraphonic recording - ie. multi-channel.
CPU usage shoots to 70% when playing this ! This is more in line with I observed before.
The fans go really high in this mode.
Even when playing stereo tracks, it's over 55% CPU.
Then I took a closer look in the task manager and saw the network stats - 250 - 300 Mbps throughput on the gigabit ethernet NIC. I think this one is a bug in JRiver. It seems like it's trying to preload the entire ISO over the LAN rather than streaming just the part currently being played. Not sure if this is triggered by one my settings, but I don't think it should ever do that no matter what.
When I play WMA stereo files, the network throughput in the <1 Mbps range, as it should be.

So it looks like there are additional issues with the ISO format that are not necessarily related to DSD itself. Though the behavior when playing DSF in power savings mode was still abnormal too.

[JimH]

Apparently, the receiver must have the "PC" input selected in order for DLNA to work.
When I do that, I am able to stream music to it that way from a PC running JRiver in a different room. It sounds awful with a bit of a hissing sound, not sure why.

In MC's DLNA Server settings, try setting the file conversion.  It may be converting to MP3.

[madbrain]

So, I copied the ISO to a local disk on that HTPC (local SSD). CPU is still between 22-35% when playing the multi-channel track. Definitely much higher than when playing the DSF file. There is something seriously wrong with ISOs.
So, seems I have uncovered a bunch of problems unrelated to DLNA, but related to SACD/DSD :
1) JRiver won't play DSD without pausing on my HTPC system in power saver profile on my system
2) JRiver tries to download the entire SACD ISO when playing from a remote library
3) JRiver uses much more CPU when playing DSD from ISO instead of DSF

[madbrain]

In MC's DLNA Server settings, try setting the file conversion.  It may be converting to MP3.

Not sure exactly where that option would be. I see the audio mode, but not file conversion.

Actually, I found the source of the hissing sound : Yamaha's "enhancer" for compressed music. They have this set to ON by default for the PC input (DLNA). It utterly destroys the sound when not playing compressed music - I was playing from a lossless WMA from a ripped CD.

Changing this setting in the receiver to OFF produced pristine sound.

[madbrain]

Thanks. I tried. It reports that the receiver supports, FLAC, MP3, M4A, WAV .
I'm not able to play any of the tests, however. I think that's because I tried it from the HTPC connected through HDMI.
I would have to set the receiver to the PC (DLNA) input and run DMRA from another PC .

So, I ran it from a different PC. I don't see a way to save the renderer report, so I attached screenshots .
The list of audio formats for DLNA is quite long, but does not include DSD .
Surprisingly, the list for image formats and video formats is completely empty.

[madbrain]

Just tried to convert one of the multi-channel tracks on that SACD ISO to FLAC.
Unfortunately :
1) the resulting FLAC file was unplayable by JRiver Media Center, even locally, much less over DLNA. Log attached for the local playback attempt.

2) the entire SACD ISO got deleted after the conversion. Now, admittedly, I did have the option to "replace original files on disk when converting". But I was only converting a single track, and it deleted the entire ISO ! Surprising, to say that least. Good thing I have a backup (well, several, since I also have the physical SACD) ...

[jmone]

So ISO are just one "lump" of data that JRiver can read, but it has to mount and read the ISO so you are going to be moving and reading from a big single file.  Your approach to convert to FLAC on a per track basis will result in a single file per track (not sure why it did not work for you - can you post the converted FLAC file somewhere?).  Likewise the Load into Memory will try to load the entire track into memory prior to playback, so you should only see the Buffering between tracks not during track playback.

I'll do my testing on an i5 NUC to a Yami RX-A3000 which I think is the same vintage as your A1000

[AndrewFG]

So, I ran it from a different PC. I don't see a way to save the renderer report, so I attached screenshots .
The list of audio formats for DLNA is quite long, but does not include DSD .
Surprisingly, the list for image formats and video formats is completely empty.

The best setting for Audio in MC for your receiver is Always Convert L16 No Header.

Why are you surprised that an audio receiver does not handle pictures or video? Those media are handled by the TV and not by the receiver..

[jmone]

OK - Did some testing:
- MC Bitstreaming DSD over HDMI = No Go on either of my HTPC (nVidia to RX-A3060 and Intel based GPU to RX-A3000).  Neither driver reports they support DSD over HDMI
- MC DLNAing DSD = worked on 2ch but 5ch did not play (the Yami A3060 saw it as DSD but without any other info like Ch count being displayed).
- Whitebear DMRA DLNAing DSD = also worked on 2ch (no multi channel sample to test).

Interestingly Andrew's Whitebear Digital Media Renderer Analyser auto changed the YAMI to Server (input) for it's tests   nice!  (MC does not do this, you have to manually change the receiver). 

EDIT - According to the Yami A3060 Manual it only supports 2ch DSD over Network/USB connections Given Whitebear DMRA does not have a multi channel DSD Sample, I don't know if the issue trying to playback multi channel DSD is a lack of support with the Yami over DLNA or MC.

[jmone]

I think your options are:
- Fix / Upgrade your HTPC to do on the fly conversions (even my Intel NUC was fine)
- Convert all your DSD to another format (FLAC)
- Get an external DAC to sit between your HTPC and the AVR
- Find a HDMI Video card that supports DSD
- ?

[madbrain]

The best setting for Audio in MC for your receiver is Always Convert L16 No Header.

Thanks.

Why are you surprised that an audio receiver does not handle pictures or video? Those media are handled by the TV and not by the receiver..

It's an audio/video receiver, not just an audio receiver, so I did find it surprising. My display is a projector, which is not networked, and doesn't support DLNA. Seems to me like the AVR could easily support pictures and video if it wanted to.

[madbrain]

OK - Did some testing:
- MC Bitstreaming DSD over HDMI = No Go on either of my HTPC (nVidia to RX-A3060 and Intel based GPU to RX-A3000).  Neither driver reports they support DSD over HDMI
- MC DLNAing DSD = worked on 2ch but 5ch did not play (the Yami A3060 saw it as DSD but without any other info like Ch count being displayed).
- Whitebear DMRA DLNAing DSD = also worked on 2ch (no multi channel sample to test).

Interestingly Andrew's Whitebear Digital Media Renderer Analyser auto changed the YAMI to Server (input) for it's tests   nice!  (MC does not do this, you have to manually change the receiver). 

EDIT - According to the Yami A3060 Manual it only supports 2ch DSD over Network/USB connections Given Whitebear DMRA does not have a multi channel DSD Sample, I don't know if the issue trying to playback multi channel DSD is a lack of support with the Yami over DLNA or MC.

Thanks for these tests ! Good to know Yamaha has added DSD to their DLNA server in their current models - too bad it's stereo only.

[madbrain]

I think your options are:
- Fix / Upgrade your HTPC to do on the fly conversions (even my Intel NUC was fine)

When playing DSF locally, the issue there is only in power savings mode, other power profiles work OK.
With ISO over network, it is a different story.

- Convert all your DSD to another format (FLAC)

Tried that, but conversion produced an unplayable file unfortunately. I was able to convert to ALAC (apple lossless) and play .

- Get an external DAC to sit between your HTPC and the AVR

This would be pricey, and would still not really help unless the receiver had a way of selecting the video from HDMI, and audio from the external DAC. Also, my 6-channel input is already in use. I have a Zektor switch with multiple devices on it, among other things, a physical Sony SACD changer. Lots of wires.

- Find a HDMI Video card that supports DSD

This is what would make the most sense. I have been looking for years, literally, to no avail. I'm not sure if this is a hardware or software issue - I would think it is the later. I would certainly buy a new GPU if it fixed that problem.

Looks like until then, physical SACD discs on the Sony player are a much better bet for playing DSD than using HTPC/JRiver with my Yamaha receiver ... At least I don't have to hear all those case fans.

[madbrain]

So ISO are just one "lump" of data that JRiver can read, but it has to mount and read the ISO so you are going to be moving and reading from a big single file. 

Even though it's one big ISO file, it shouldn't need to load the whole thing into RAM . JRiver MC doesn't wait to do so prior to playing a track, actually. I don't know why it keeps downloading over the network, it just goes on and on at nearly 300 Mbps - far higher than the 15 Mbps data rate of the audio. When I played the ISO from local SSD instead of remote library, I did not see unusual disk activity in task manager. So, I think this ISO issue is specific to remote library.

Your approach to convert to FLAC on a per track basis will result in a single file per track (not sure why it did not work for you - can you post the converted FLAC file somewhere?).  Likewise the Load into Memory will try to load the entire track into memory prior to playback, so you should only see the Buffering between tracks not during track playback.

I disabled the "load into memory" option. I want to be able to play gapless album. I don't want any buffering. Sometimes, on recordings, the separate tracks are just markers, but the playing is not supposed to be interrupted. This option isn't making any difference as far as I can tell for remote or local playback of SACD ISO.
I'm able to play gapless from ISO, either local or network, without buffering if I use the "balanced" or "high performance" power profile. But when playing from network, it uses 70% CPU for multi-channel. Definitely something very wrong there.

I deleted the bogus FLAC yesterday, but this should be easy to reproduce. I will re-encode it now and post it. Edit: unfortunately, I can't reproduce this. The re-encoding worked as expected.

I'll do my testing on an i5 NUC to a Yami RX-A3000 which I think is the same vintage as your A1000

I think you subsequently said it's the RX-A3060, so it would be significantly newer. I picked up my RX-A1000 years ago at Best buy - I think in 2011 or so. It was a store display without a remote that I got for $300. Got the remote on ebay.
I have been thinking about upgrading to a receiver that's 4K capable for a while. Unfortunately, 4K projector prices are still way too high, so I have kept it so far. My Sanyo PLV-Z2000 full HD projector is 9 years old, too, and on its 3rd lamp. I paid $1500 for it. When 4K gets in that price range, that's when I will upgrade.

[madbrain]

Even after the successful FLAC conversion, the multi-channel FLAC won't play over DLNA. JRiver log of DLNA playback failure attached. No errors this time, playback just aborts immediately. Same FLAC file plays file locally in my home office.

I looked at the sample rate in the FLAC file and it is 352,800 . No wonder, I can't expect the Yamaha DLNA renderer to play that sampling rate.

I don't see any option for sampling rate in JRiver MC when converting from SACD ISO to FLAC . Just options for compression level (I used 8, highest), verify encoding, add 4K padding block, add seek table, and use ogg . I left those as default, all checked except "use ogg".

Same issue when converting to Apple Lossless (ALAC). Sampling rate is 352,800 . There are no conversion options at all for this one.

I'm sure these files would play directly from the HTPC over HDMI when transcoded by JRiver to 176 or 192 kHz. I just didn't turn on my projector today so I can't look at the display of the HTPC. Actually, I could, over remote desktop. Of course, the HTPC is also powered off

Overall, it seems like DLNA is just not the way to go for me, due to these limitations :
1) inability of the receiver to select HDMI video + DLNA audio
2) limited set of audio formats supported (only 16-bit, and no DSD)
3) limited sampling rates supported (can't play high sampling rate ALAC or FLAC)
I really would need all 3 solved. Not sure that any newer Yamaha receiver can handle this.

[JimH]

When you convert to FLAC, don't use a high compression level.  It only makes a slightly smaller file, but it would take more CPU to decode.

[madbrain]

I deleted the bogus FLAC yesterday, but this should be easy to reproduce. I will re-encode it now and post it. Edit: unfortunately, I can't reproduce this. The re-encoding worked as expected.

Actually, I tried a little harder, and was able to reproduce. Here are the parameters that caused it to happen :
- converting a single track of an SACD ISO to a FLAC file
- in "audio conversion options" , set
Convert to same folder as original files
Replace original files on disk and in library -> this is important, unless this is set, bug does not happen
- encoder quality setting does not matter : either 6 or 8 reproduce it

I tried this on a couple of ISO files. Interestingly, the entire ISO only got deleted for one of them, not both. Very odd.
This should be fixed too. I can provide the ISO on which it happens reliably.
I am now in the process of uploading 3 unplayable FLAC files generated by JRiver MC at :
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1eSSO_7gwqeZGFGU1B6bTl4WkU

I am attaching a log of the encoding and failed playback .

[jmone]

"Arthur Rubinstein - Chopin Ballades (1 - Ballade No. 1, Op. 23 in G Minor).flac" plays fine for me....

[madbrain]

"Arthur Rubinstein - Chopin Ballades (1 - Ballade No. 1, Op. 23 in G Minor).flac" plays fine for me....

I had to double check and downloaded it back to my drive. Indeed, it plays.
The issue seems to be that it doesn't play in the library after the conversion. Very weird. It is not recognized as a FLAC file there, but as SACD.