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[karzai]

I just installed MC23 and it installed under MC22 folder. This means that it is not really a new version, it is actually just an update. Do you mean you charged me $20 for an update? Every year you release an update with minimal improvements. The last I bought was MC20 and the last update contained a firmware that messes up the signal causing my receiver to feed my speakers with clipping noises. So I was forced to purchase MC22, and I haven't had the bad signal since.

Please update this version and make sure that it installs under its own folder and not under MC22's.

[Sjettepet]

I just installed MC23 and it installed under MC22 folder. This means that it is not really a new version, it is actually just an update. Do you mean you charged me $20 for an update? Every year you release an update with minimal improvements. The last I bought was MC20 and the last update contained a firmware that messes up the signal causing my receiver to feed my speakers with clipping noises. So I was forced to purchase MC22, and I haven't had the bad signal since.

Please update this version and make sure that it installs under its own folder and not under MC22's.

Although I find this a bit harsh, I somehow cannot shake the feeling you describe. Looking back at MC 18, I have paid for many updates with minimal, and no fundamental, improvements. It is unclear to me what J-Rivers strategy is to make it stand out from competition. Heck, I even couldn't tell who the competition is (Kodi? Roon? Mediamonkey? Emby? Foobar2000? Daphile? Itunes?)

[Awesome Donkey]

Ummm, by default Media Center 23 installs in its own folder (e.g. C:\Program Files (x86)\J River\Media Center 23). I just double checked this in a virtual machine - make sure you're not installing in a custom path (or portable install).

[Spike1000]

This means that it is not really a new version, it is actually just an update. Do you mean you charged me $20 for an update?

Have a read of this post, it explains JRiver's business model.

https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,81987.0.html

Also, as stated at the top of this thread, MC 23 is currently in beta.

There is no obligation to upgrade MC. If you're happy with a particular version you can run that version for ever. If you want to upgrade and help fund the development of future versions of MC you can do that too.

Spike

[~OHM~]

I just installed MC23 and it installed under MC22 folder. This means that it is not really a new version, it is actually just an update. Do you mean you charged me $20 for an update? Every year you release an update with minimal improvements. The last I bought was MC20 and the last update contained a firmware that messes up the signal causing my receiver to feed my speakers with clipping noises. So I was forced to purchase MC22, and I haven't had the bad signal since.

Please update this version and make sure that it installs under its own folder and not under MC22's.

sounds like user error

[Sjettepet]

Ah, I see Karzai's complaint and my reaction to it were moved from the general MC23 thread to a new thread called 'complaints department'.

Fair enough.... but I still feel uncomfortable having forked out $ 20,- once again for what now seem marginal improvements.

[astromo]

Ah, I see Karzai's complaint and my reaction to it were moved from the general MC23 thread to a new thread called 'complaints department'.

Fair enough.... but I still feel uncomfortable having forked out $ 20,- once again for what now seem marginal improvements.

Spike's comment is critically important here:

Have a read of this post, it explains JRiver's business model.

https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,81987.0.html

Also, as stated at the top of this thread, MC 23 is currently in beta.

There is no obligation to upgrade MC. If you're happy with a particular version you can run that version for ever. If you want to upgrade and help fund the development of future versions of MC you can do that too.

Spike

JRiver do not hide how they operate. It's unfortunate that there are some who feel dissatisfaction. I do think that it's unrealistic to compare MC with freeware though, especially considering the intimate involvement that JRiver's CEO and supporting technical staff demonstrate here. Again, they're not hiding.

Even so, it comes down to a personal value judgement. If you as a user can't see the value of upgrading, then that's your choice and we will ultimately not see your presence on the latest version board(s).

All the best for the path you take.

[tyler69]

As far as I see, nobody said anything about hiding something. both users complain about the minimal changes occuring during a major version change as far as i see. and this is correct it inline with JRiver's business model. Installing MC23 in MC22 folder is probably a user error.
I bought MC22 although I did not think I'll benefit from "new" functionality and I was right: I can't think of anything that was added into MC22 that I was waiting for/needed. The only thing I "benefitted" from was that I helped Yaobing get SAT>IP up and running (I don't even use it since UX is just not good). I stay away from MC23 since I have a feeling this version will also not be of any benefit for me. My personal upgrade plan is now: wait until a new version comes out and then see what was added in the current one. If there's something I want in the current one (where development ends), I buy the new version.
Another point for me to stay away from new versions: since JRiver -like every company- has limited resources, it might take a while to optimize already implemented functiionality when putting new things into the software is a priority. Looking at "KISS" interface and its implementation, to me it seems like we are getting more and more possibilities to remote control mc but none of them is complete (again: my personal opinion).
And I'm with you: in general people should make up their heads up and either stay on a "development ended" version or live with JRiver's business model.

EDIT: JRiver's intimate involvment in the forums is probably necessary and inherited in the business model since I do not know another way of getting support. I'd like to see some statistics on how many users have been helped "unofficially" by mc users and not by JRiver staff. So that's actually less workload for JRiver than having a "complaint department"

[~OHM~]

As far as I see, nobody said anything about hiding something. both users complain about the minimal changes occuring during a major version change as far as i see. and this is correct it inline with JRiver's business model. Installing MC23 in MC22 folder is probably a user error.
I bought MC22 although I did not think I'll benefit from "new" functionality and I was right: I can't think of anything that was added into MC22 that I was waiting for/needed. The only thing I "benefitted" from was that I helped Yaobing get SAT>IP up and running (I don't even use it since UX is just not good). I stay away from MC23 since I have a feeling this version will also not be of any benefit for me. My personal upgrade plan is now: wait until a new version comes out and then see what was added in the current one. If there's something I want in the current one (where development ends), I buy the new version.
Another point for me to stay away from new versions: since JRiver -like every company- has limited resources, it might take a while to optimize already implemented functiionality when putting new things into the software is a priority. Looking at "KISS" interface and its implementation, to me it seems like we are getting more and more possibilities to remote control mc but none of them is complete (again: my personal opinion).
And I'm with you: in general people should make up their heads up and either stay on a "development ended" version or live with JRiver's business model.

EDIT: JRiver's intimate involvment in the forums is probably necessary and inherited in the business model since I do not know another way of getting support. I'd like to see some statistics on how many users have been helped "unofficially" by mc users and not by JRiver staff. So that's actually less workload for JRiver than having a "complaint department"

WOW....if $16.00  is not in your budget to support a program that should cost hundreds at initial buy in. I have several programs that only allow it on 1 pc and have locked me out because I forgot this and installed it on another pc. I have no use for the TV functions in MC. My use consists of Music Playback along with some Music vids. I support MC yearly. Yes it is ones choice to support or not to. 

Even so, it comes down to a personal value judgment. If you as a user can't see the value of upgrading, then that's your choice and we will ultimately not see your presence on the latest version board(s).

All the best for the path you take.

I wish I had astromo's patience and wisdom in speech!

[tyler69]

Well, you probably misinterpreted my words since I never stated that $16 is not in my budget. I'd be even very happy to pay more..
If you decided to support JRiver every year that's very kind of you, but I usually do not support companies I do not benefit from. To me it seems that people tend to forget 'round here that we are not a "happy family" but customers and JRiver is a company that wants to make profit. They have their business model and we either like it or we don't. I don't see a problem from a customer perspective.

[Awesome Donkey]

I'd like to see some statistics on how many users have been helped "unofficially" by mc users and not by JRiver staff. So that's actually less workload for JRiver than having a "complaint department"

It's rather nice to see a community of users helping other users with their issues. Not only that, it's rather nice to see the CEO and the JRiver developers themselves responding to support topics, so how many companies can you say do this? Many of them outsource their support to support firms and it's VERY rare to get responses from developers this way.

[tyler69]

you're missing the point i guess. i never said that it is not nice to have a knowledgable community.
regarding the ceo responding: i know of a few companies that do this. there are sometimes matters, that i like to have official statements to. no biggie in my opinion.

[Vocalpoint]

My personal upgrade plan is now: wait until a new version comes out and then see what was added in the current one. If there's something I want in the current one (where development ends), I buy the new version.
Another point for me to stay away from new versions: since JRiver -like every company- has limited resources, it might take a while to optimize already implemented functionality when putting new things into the software is a priority.

I endorse the JRiver business plan - and I always support them immediately upon news of a new version license being available. But that's usually where the love ends (for a while).

My upgrade schedule is to enjoy the last build of the previous version until the "new" version moves up to at least Build 50. That is my benchmark to jump in and start a migration. I figure by Build 50 (within the "Latest" channel)  - the app has settled to the point of daily use and most key enhancements are available and relatively solid.

VP

[Sjettepet]

Have a read of this post, it explains JRiver's business model.

https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,81987.0.html

Also, as stated at the top of this thread, MC 23 is currently in beta.

There is no obligation to upgrade MC. If you're happy with a particular version you can run that version for ever. If you want to upgrade and help fund the development of future versions of MC you can do that too.

Spike

As correctly pointed out in the last post in the thread referred to, this statement from JRiver is now 4 years old!

Also, I remember making my decision to move to MC 22 on the thread 'Plans for MC 22'. Can anyone point me to the thread 'Plans for MC 23'?

Don't get me wrong, I am supporting and will support JRiver with my paid master license and payments for upgrades even if I don't see an immediate use for them in my particular situation (audiophile, audio-only setup without networking). The reason for me to do this is that JRiver has long been the only piece of Windows software that offers the right combination (for me) of a nice GUI (then...) and audophile focus. However, there is a growing number of alternatives now and I guess I would like to see some confirmation that my loyalty pays off. For one, I would like to see at least some interest in updating the user interface ('experience').

[MikeO]

Has anybody ever described Agile Development ?

It's about very small incremental changes, features, bug fixes etc. each "Release" is a small move from the last release.

Are you really whining about a paltry $ 20 a year "license" fee. Try some other software with 10 or more times this as an annual fee.

If you did a year on year comparison I am sure 22 and 23 will be very different as a result of the small released improvement

For me $20 is a steal and I am a pensioner   

Quality doesn't come free

Mike

[~OHM~]

Has anybody ever described Agile Development ?

It's about very small incremental changes, features, bug fixes etc. each "Release" is a small move from the last release.

Are you really whining about a paltry $ 20 a year "license" fee. Try some other software with 10 or more times this as an annual fee.

If you did a year on year comparison I am sure 22 and 23 will be very different as a result of the small released improvement

For me $20 is a steal and I am a pensioner   

Quality doesn't come free

Mike

+1 

[BillT]

Are you really whining about a paltry $ 20 a year "license" fee. Try some other software with 10 or more times this as an annual fee.

Yes. I'm thinking about upgrading my 4 year old copy of Lightroom. Adobe are trying to force everyone onto a subscription model which would mean paying £120 a year and you lose the use of the software if you stop paying. (Forunately they still sell a standalone version, just not easy to find on their web site.) I don't think their software is significantly more complex than JRiver, just a lot more expensive.

[MikeO]

Everybody is at it.

 I have a dev tool Resharper, they want $89 per annum. If you don't pay you keep a version BUT 12 months back from current i.e. 4 quarterly upgrades

It's really blackmail

Mike

[Listener]

As far as I see, nobody said anything about hiding something. both users complain about the minimal changes occuring during a major version change as far as i see. and this is correct it inline with JRiver's business model. Installing MC23 in MC22 folder is probably a user error.
I bought MC22 although I did not think I'll benefit from "new" functionality and I was right: I can't think of anything that was added into MC22 that I was waiting for/needed. The only thing I "benefitted" from was that I helped Yaobing get SAT>IP up and running (I don't even use it since UX is just not good). I stay away from MC23 since I have a feeling this version will also not be of any benefit for me. My personal upgrade plan is now: wait until a new version comes out and then see what was added in the current one. If there's something I want in the current one (where development ends), I buy the new version.
Another point for me to stay away from new versions: since JRiver -like every company- has limited resources, it might take a while to optimize already implemented functiionality when putting new things into the software is a priority. Looking at "KISS" interface and its implementation, to me it seems like we are getting more and more possibilities to remote control mc but none of them is complete (again: my personal opinion).
And I'm with you: in general people should make up their heads up and either stay on a "development ended" version or live with JRiver's business model.

EDIT: JRiver's intimate involvment in the forums is probably necessary and inherited in the business model since I do not know another way of getting support. I'd like to see some statistics on how many users have been helped "unofficially" by mc users and not by JRiver staff. So that's actually less workload for JRiver than having a "complaint department"

If you are skeptical about the value of new features in MC23, wait until you see new features before buying the upgrade.  Keep an eye on the osts announcing new versions and you'll see what changed. If you wait, you'll pay full price for the upgrade rather than a discounted price but you will know what you are getting.

I think that JRiver and its users benefit from the involvement of both JRiver employees and customers to resolve problems.

[kr4]

Yes. I'm thinking about upgrading my 4 year old copy of Lightroom. Adobe are trying to force everyone onto a subscription model which would mean paying £120 a year and you lose the use of the software if you stop paying. (Forunately they still sell a standalone version, just not easy to find on their web site.) I don't think their software is significantly more complex than JRiver, just a lot more expensive.

Yup.  I am hanging on to my Adobe Creative Suite, bought and paid-for, and resisting the subscription model.

[millst]

That's a bit hyperbolic. Developing software takes time and I don't know any devs that don't like to get paid for theirs. Sure, many contribute to open source for free, but that's not putting a roof over their head (not their day job or they work for a company that profits off open source).

Businesses work best when there is a steady stream of income coming in. So long as your old version continues to work, you can't really complain about not getting free updates for the rest of your life. Nobody is forcing anyone to upgrade.

However, I'm not a fan when software is subscription based i.e. the software stops working when you stop paying. I'm not likely to purchase, but [again] it's the business's choice so I'm not going to complain much so long as they are up front about it.

-tm

Everybody is at it.

 I have a dev tool Resharper, they want $89 per annum. If you don't pay you keep a version BUT 12 months back from current i.e. 4 quarterly upgrades

It's really blackmail

Mike

[CountryBumkin]

I have no problem with the JRiver business model and I support them by upgrading each year - but it really bugs me when a version has a working feature, then that feature breaks near the end of the development cycle and you have to upgrade to have it working again.

[JimH]

I have no problem with the JRiver business model and I support them by upgrading each year - but it really bugs me when a version has a working feature, then that feature breaks near the end of the development cycle and you have to upgrade to have it working again.

We do our best not to leave anything major.  Sometimes we let minor ones go because a fix might introduce a new problem.

We're not perfect.

[~OHM~]

Thanks, I was able to change for the profile here. For the Change restore page, it is asking for a pw, but I don't know that. I only know of a pw for the forum but not registration. what should I put here or how do I reset my PW.

I think on the restore page you just put in a new pw....give it a try, won't hurt

[lboregard]

The best feature of JRiver (from my POV) is rock solid media playing. It handles anything you throw at it.

But I do have my gripes:
- Thumbnail cache is version dependent. Not sure why.
- UI is spartan. I initially missed that a lot compared to other solutions, but I guess I've grown used to it.
- I find customizing the UI (adding a field for example), not natural (as in not easy). Maybe it's just me.
- If I have deleted some media (let's say movie Y), when I add new media it reuses the entry for movie Y, then I have to get movie & tv info manually.
- I have this issue where media marked to be skipped in the library resurfaces (I have two smb shares, not available at the same time generally)

[sandrei]

As a person that was part of the complaining team in the past I have to say this: MC23 sounds way better than MC22. My 24bit HiRes Flac files sound really good now. And I am pretty sure it is not my hearing the reason. Way to go guys, I am happy that I've upgraded.

As for paying 18 or 20 $ per year for this piece of software I agree with an earlier opinion that it is user's decision if he/she wants to do it. If you like how it works a certain version you can remain at that one. Myself I like to be up to date with all my software, so I did it, and I will do it.

A lot of people are a bit confused about new versions because they look and feel the same like the previous ones, which I personally consider a strong point of JRiver MC, I hate to update a software and suddenly all the things are gone or in a completely different place or with different names. But if you are curious and look under the hood you will discover more.