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[tbng]

I have hundreds of .DSF and .WAV files in surround sound format (5.1, 5.0, and 4.0, although I believe the latter is just 5.0 with no information in the center channel).  Using an HDMI connection from my Win7/JRiver music server, I can kinda, sorta play surround music, but it is an exercise in frustration.

Surround will play (maybe) if I:
     A. Set the output encoding to Dolby Digital (why, if the signal is already 5.1?)
     B. Set output channels to 5.1 (see question in 1 above)
     C. Select the audio device to match whatever device is on the other end of the audio connection, in my case, the Meridian HD621 (why can't separate outputs have separate drivers?)
     D. Selecting Source number of channels will not work

With an HDMI connection, JRiver/Win7 is unstable, and JRiver frequently stops working with error messages that suggest issues with the meta data.  A simple selection of a new track might cause it (or not), and I have some tracks that JRiver will not load at all.  Playback via HDMI also causes delayed beginnings (same as DVD players thanks to the handshake), but I have found more frequent audio dropouts and sudden and disconcerting cutoffs at the end of a track.

Then there is the fact that if I play a two channel recording using the above JRiver settings, it also comes out 5.1 with nothing in the 3.1 channels.  That means the receiver (Meridian 861v8 in my case) still sees a 5.1 Dolby Digital signal and therefore its two-channel DSP capabilities can't function, something that is critical to me.  To play a two channel track and retain the Meridian's DSP abilities, I must return to JRiver's output settings and change the output encoding and channels to two channel and likely change the audio device as well.  None of that is possible from JRemote, of course, so it means getting up and going to the computer to make the change.  While that's not exactly laborious, it should not be necessary.  I want JRiver to send a signal of whatever data is contained in the source file just like my DVD players and DVRs have been doing for years and doing so without fear of repeated software crashes.

I hope I am doing something wrong and that someone out there can tell me what that is but in terms that do not require the knowledge of a Microsoft engineer to comprehend.

P.S.  I ask that those who respond to this post please assume the equipment and interconnects are in proper working order.  I believe I have ruled out those issues.  I hope a JRiver representative will take part in this discussion. 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

I have hundreds of .DSF and .WAV files in surround sound format (5.1, 5.0, and 4.0, although I believe the latter is just 5.0 with no information in the center channel).  Using an HDMI connection from my Win7/JRiver music server, I can kinda, sorta play surround music, but it is an exercise in frustration.

Surround will play (maybe) if I:
     A. Set the output encoding to Dolby Digital (why, if the signal is already 5.1?)
     B. Set output channels to 5.1 (see question in 1 above)
     C. Select the audio device to match whatever device is on the other end of the audio connection, in my case, the Meridian HD621 (why can't separate outputs have separate drivers?)
     D. Selecting Source number of channels will not work

With an HDMI connection, JRiver/Win7 is unstable, and JRiver frequently stops working with error messages that suggest issues with the meta data.  A simple selection of a new track might cause it (or not), and I have some tracks that JRiver will not load at all.  Playback via HDMI also causes delayed beginnings (same as DVD players thanks to the handshake), but I have found more frequent audio dropouts and sudden and disconcerting cutoffs at the end of a track.

Then there is the fact that if I play a two channel recording using the above JRiver settings, it also comes out 5.1 with nothing in the 3.1 channels.  That means the receiver (Meridian 861v8 in my case) still sees a 5.1 Dolby Digital signal and therefore its two-channel DSP capabilities can't function, something that is critical to me.  To play a two channel track and retain the Meridian's DSP abilities, I must return to JRiver's output settings and change the output encoding and channels to two channel and likely change the audio device as well.  None of that is possible from JRemote, of course, so it means getting up and going to the computer to make the change.  While that's not exactly laborious, it should not be necessary.  I want JRiver to send a signal of whatever data is contained in the source file just like my DVD players and DVRs have been doing for years and doing so without fear of repeated software crashes.

I hope I am doing something wrong and that someone out there can tell me what that is but in terms that do not require the knowledge of a Microsoft engineer to comprehend.

P.S.  I ask that those who respond to this post please assume the equipment and interconnects are in proper working order.  I believe I have ruled out those issues.  I hope a JRiver representative will take part in this discussion.

I am not really familiar with Meridian gear.  Kal Rubinson is.  So, he might spot this and chime in.

Like Kal, I have been using JRiver for years primarily with Mch rips in DSF format. I have thousands of albums in my library, and I have had relatively little trouble in Mch playback. So, I will give you a snapshot of my experience rather than attempt to diagnose all the  problems in your lengthy post.

I formerly used JR via HDMI into a prepro.  The major problem was synchronization of the handshake given the flaky way Windows Sound handles HDMI. I recommend using either an audio device that is always on or, even better, a Gefen HDMI Detective+, which is always on.

I now use USB into an Exasound Mch DAC.  I have been much happier with that.

I never use Dolby, etc. to synthesize Mch, nor do I expand stereo to Mch.  My normal output channel setting is 5.1. (I do use a 7.1 zone for 7.1 BDs.  I have set up Zoneswitch in JR to control that automatically.). I also checked the box in DSP Studio to use 2.1 output for stereo inputs.  I do use bass management in JRiver.

If you do not wish to use JR bass management, then I would suggest setting up 2, 5 and 6 channel zones with Zoneswitch toggling between based on the Channels tag in the input file.  Some Mch SACDs are 5 channel, some are 6 in their metadata.  6 channel means 5.1.  When there are only 3 or 4 channels of signal, SACDs use a 5 channel container with the center or surround signals null. If you truly have WAV files in a 4 channel container, you ought to also set up a 4 channel zone.

Hope this helps get you at least part way there.

[kr4]

I have used a similar setup in the past with JRiver/HD621/861v8 without problems except for the format/bitrate limitations of the Meridian equipment.  As I recall, I have never used Dolby Digital nor any output formatting.  Number of channels was always set for 5.1.  However, you might want to configure an additional zone with 2.0 to permit Meridian's DSP for that format.  The real issue is that the HD621 can handle only limited bitrates in PCM.

[tbng]

Thanks for the responses.

I am reasonably certain that the Meridian equipment is not an issue here, that the problem is all JRiver and/or Windows 7, especially the stability question.  Another DAC is not the answer.  It would eliminate my 861v8 which has a fine set of DACs in it, not to mention DSP capabilities that are VERY important to me.  And since my HD621 literally is always on, I don't see what assistance the Geffen would offer.  Maybe I'm missing something.

I get what you are saying about the "zone switch," which can be changed from JRemote.  I will try that.  While I anticipate that simplifying changing options, it doesn't alter the basic issues at hand.  I just want JRiver to output the correct format per the source material with no help from me just as any DVD/SACD/CD player would.  I would like to hear from JRiver on this.

I don't know how you can get multi-channel without forcing Dolby Digital via the output encoding parameter.  If I don't, JRiver will not play a multi-channel selection and insists that I switch to two channel to do so.

Thanks again for the tips.

[kr4]

Thanks for the responses.

I am reasonably certain that the Meridian equipment is not an issue here, that the problem is all JRiver and/or Windows 7, especially the stability question.  Another DAC is not the answer.  It would eliminate my 861v8 which has a fine set of DACs in it, not to mention DSP capabilities that are VERY important to me.  And since my HD621 literally is always on, I don't see what assistance the Geffen would offer.  Maybe I'm missing something.

The Meridian stuff is just fine.  I used that combo for years.

I don't know how you can get multi-channel without forcing Dolby Digital via the output encoding parameter.  If I don't, JRiver will not play a multi-channel selection and insists that I switch to two channel to do so.

Then you have problems elsewhere.  Can you post your setup screens?

[tbng]

I believe you hit upon the ideal solution - at least as far as simplifying switching between outputs.  I did not know about "zones" but now have established a multi-channel HDMI zone, another for two channel HDMI, and a third for two channel USB.  They are, of course, easily selected on JRemote.  So far, so good.  I still am concerned with the seeming instability of HDMI, but let's see where this takes me.

Thanks again.

P.S. I still have to force Dolby Digital to get surround.  How you do that without that setting I cannot explain.

[tbng]

JRiver, however, continues to crash.  When it does, I usually get these messages:

Files that help describe the problem:
  C:\Users\Musicvault\AppData\Local\Temp\WER4CC4.tmp.WERInternalMetadata.xml
  C:\Users\Musicvault\AppData\Local\Temp\WER7E50.tmp.appcompat.txt
  C:\Users\Musicvault\AppData\Local\Temp\WER7E80.tmp.mdmp

[JimH]

What does Musicvault have to do with this problem?  Are they video files?  Do you have other software installed for them?

HDMI isn't unstable.  A driver could be.

You might try playing only a single file type at a time, in the simplest way, just to see if you can isolate when the problem occurs.

[kr4]

JRiver, however, continues to crash.  When it does, I usually get these messages:

Files that help describe the problem:
  C:\Users\Musicvault\AppData\Local\Temp\WER4CC4.tmp.WERInternalMetadata.xml
  C:\Users\Musicvault\AppData\Local\Temp\WER7E50.tmp.appcompat.txt
  C:\Users\Musicvault\AppData\Local\Temp\WER7E80.tmp.mdmp

It is not possible for us to access your local files.

[hipstone]

I also have had the same experiences with JRiver 22 and an Oppo 103 via HDMI.

I've spent what seems like 6 weeks jacking things around to get a dsf. multi-channel set of files to play correctly, and have gotten them to play, only to get up the next day and turn things on and it's gone again.

I have changed so many setting that now even 2-chan stereo is now silent.  My Wasapi setting disappeared on my hardware selector, so that is a bad sign.  I tried ASIO just as a fluke, and it stated no multi-channel playback with ASIO.  Not sure how true that is, but am not getting any with it.

When I go into DSP setting with a file playing it will say 44.1khz with 64bits is not playable with your hardware.  But the files are of course not 64bit.  I have no idea how JRiver deduced that?

Even my original purchase seemed glitchy from the start.  I got out my credit card to pay for JRiver, and it asked me to make sure that I was using the version that the purchased key was for "23".  Yet I was on ver. 22 and saw no button or selector to switch over the key to ver. 22.  I felt stuck with a key for next version but I paid anyway and the code sent to me took.  Now I come to this forum and look for ver. 22 for Windows and it's not here either.  Are you trying to quickly bury 22 for win?

I feel like I should remove the entire program from my computer and relaunch the installation fresh and start all over.  The more work I did to get DSD M/C files to play the further away I got from a good stable installation for playing stereo files..

Is there a button for putting things back to default settings, or is a fresh installation the only way to get back to how things were when new?

[Fitzcaraldo215]

Your problems are different from the original post.  Yours just seem to be typical HDMI handshake issues, which to me, are a Windows problem that JRiver can do little about.  As I said, I was never happy with HDMI until I got the Gefen device to eliminate handshake issues. I have many friends with the same experience.

[Fitzcaraldo215]

Thanks for the responses.

I am reasonably certain that the Meridian equipment is not an issue here, that the problem is all JRiver and/or Windows 7, especially the stability question.  Another DAC is not the answer.  It would eliminate my 861v8 which has a fine set of DACs in it, not to mention DSP capabilities that are VERY important to me.  And since my HD621 literally is always on, I don't see what assistance the Geffen would offer.  Maybe I'm missing something.

I get what you are saying about the "zone switch," which can be changed from JRemote.  I will try that.  While I anticipate that simplifying changing options, it doesn't alter the basic issues at hand.  I just want JRiver to output the correct format per the source material with no help from me just as any DVD/SACD/CD player would.  I would like to hear from JRiver on this.

I don't know how you can get multi-channel without forcing Dolby Digital via the output encoding parameter.  If I don't, JRiver will not play a multi-channel selection and insists that I switch to two channel to do so.

Thanks again for the tips.

You appear to have multiple problems which have not affected Kal, formerly with a similar setup to yours, or myself with a different one.  But, I agree with Kal, let's see screen shots of your audio setup parameters in JRiver as a start.  Otherwise, we are just guessing.

Also, it has been a long time since I have messed with HDMI, although I still use it to carry video signal with no problems.  Unfortunately, I think you need to drill down into Windows Sound on the Win7 Control Panel to first make sure that the properties for the HDMI link are correct.  If they are not, there is nothing JRiver can do about that.

The sampling rate input to output conversions specified in JR DSP Studio must also be consistent with your output equipment.  JR converts normal DSF files from SACD (DSD64) to 352.8k PCM.  To be compatible with the Meridian, they should be downconverted from there to 88 or 96k.

[hipstone]

I also have had the same experiences with JRiver 22 and an Oppo 103 via HDMI.

I've spent what seems like 6 weeks jacking things around to get a dsf. multi-channel set of files to play correctly, and have gotten them to play, only to get up the next day and turn things on and it's gone again.

I have changed so many setting that now even 2-chan stereo is now silent.  My Wasapi setting disappeared on my hardware selector, so that is a bad sign.  I tried ASIO just as a fluke, and it stated no multi-channel playback with ASIO.  Not sure how true that is, but am not getting any with it.

When I go into DSP setting with a file playing it will say 44.1khz with 64bits is not playable with your hardware.  But the files are of course not 64bit.  I have no idea how JRiver deduced that?

Even my original purchase seemed glitchy from the start.  I got out my credit card to pay for JRiver, and it asked me to make sure that I was using the version that the purchased key was for "23".  Yet I was on ver. 22 and saw no button or selector to switch over the key to ver. 22.  I felt stuck with a key for next version but I paid anyway and the code sent to me took.  Now I come to this forum and look for ver. 22 for Windows and it's not here either.  Are you trying to quickly bury 22 for win?

I feel like I should remove the entire program from my computer and relaunch the installation fresh and start all over.  The more work I did to get DSD M/C files to play the further away I got from a good stable installation for playing stereo files..

Is there a button for putting things back to default settings, or is a fresh installation the only way to get back to how things were when new?

I went and wound back Win 10 to it's original installation where nothing else was on the computer.  I then reinstalled MC23.  Thankfully my WASAPI driver selection reappeared and I selected it of course.

This is where I am now.

All stereo FLAC files play perfectly except 24/192 (24/192 gives error below)

Playback cannot be started using 192khz 24bit 2-ch.

It offered up the conversion to 96khz 24bit for playback.  Is it true JRiver does not handle 24/192 audio files, or is this another issue I am to scale?

All multi-channel FLAC files play perfectly so long as they are not dsf files.  I could have sworn that I was able to get dsf to pass through HDMI to my Oppo untouched by any resampling (DSP output settings) previously during experiments and changing other settings.
--------------------------------
And looking at the spec sheet for JRiver, it implies that DSD is supported in a bit-perfect way:

Bit Perfect
JRiver Media Center audio is bit perfect. This means that it can output your CDs, your HD audio (88.1 KHz, 176 KHz, and more), your DSD, and any other audio perfectly to your DAC.
OK, it never mentions 192khz, but it must be supported (right?), and  DSD perfectly to your DAC seems to be a matter of opinion, and not fact if one wants bit-perfect as promised in the heading, correct?

WAV & Lossless
JRiver is a pioneer in lossless compression. Matt Ashland, JRiver's CTO, created Monkey's Audio (APE), one of the first lossless compression codecs. Media Center fully supports WAV, AIFF, FLAC, APE, WMA Lossless, Apple Lossless, and WavPack.
OK, here JRiver seems to back-track a tad, and does not claim DSD (or dsf) support, or not at the level that these seven other codecs are supported.

DSD
Media Center can bitstream DSD to high-end DACs using ASIO 2.2.
You mean bitstream bit-perfect?  Or the resampled down res type of bitstream?

Please someone at least let me know if 192/24 can play bit-perfect through JRiver?

[Hendrik]

192kHz audio works perfectly fine in MC. If it doesn't work for you but 96kHz works, then its likely your audio device doesn't actually accept it - or at least not in the combination of settings (channels/bitdepth) you selected.
DSD is also supported perfectly bit-exact to compatible DSD DACs either through DoP or even native DSD (through ASIO).

For HDMI with WASAPI, you can check in the Windows audio device settings which rates it actually accepts.

[Awesome Donkey]

Hendrik's right, 192kHz (and above that) works fine, as long as the DAC you're using supports it. What Windows OS and DAC are you using?

DSD also works fine (via bitstreaming, which is bit-perfect) - I'm using it right now as I type this.

[Fitzcaraldo215]

Agreed, PCM hi rez works perfectly fine in my system at any common sampling rate up to 384k, since my DAC supports all those sampling rates, as does JRiver.  But, that is via USB. 

I can also bitstream DSD via USB - up to DSD256 in my case - but that cannot happen via HDMI, since GPUs or Intel Integrated Graphics control HDMI audio output and they do not support DSD bitstreaming.  Yes, players like Oppo can bitstream DSD via HDMI, but not PCs.

The other alternative of DoP for DSD requires DoP support by the receiving DAC. Most DACS do not have that.  DoP can use USB, HDMI or coax plus maybe Toslink as long as the PCM output sampling rate selected in JRiver is supported by the DAC and the wires.

Note that any restrictions are not due to JRiver.  Rather, they are limited by hardware, drivers and the interconnection protocol.