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[BCZ]

So I'm revisiting the issue that I can't change volume under WDM on my JRiver on my bootcamp MacBook Pro. The previous thread had a lot of people saying that volume control simply just works. Yet, I've done countless things, including reinstalling Windows twice and still does not work.

Now, I have a question for everyone that has their volume control working with JRiver WDM. If you click the little loudspeaker icon at the bottom right corner of the screen (basically the windows volume controller), and if you change the volume in that slider, does your volume change? Right now, with WDM as the default audio device, changing the Windows system volume slider does not change the volume at all, regardless it is at 0 or 100.

Thanks

[stewart_pk]

Firstly, what volume type are you using? You can find this out from the Player ---> Volume menu options.

[BCZ]

Firstly, what volume type are you using? You can find this out from the Player ---> Volume menu options.

I'm using internal volume.

New discoveries. If I put my Xonar U7 under ASIO mode instead of WASAPI and switch volume to System Volume, then the media key for volume up/down will change system volume and JRiver volume slider. EXCEPT, the actual volume doesn't change at all. But at least that's one step forward knowing that the media keys can change the JRiver volume and the system volume at the same time. However, I get occasional stutters from putting the U7 in ASIO mode.

[BCZ]

More discoveries, this one is particularly interesting and likely the key to solve this nagging volume problem.

Once Dirac completes its calibration, it will route all system audio through the Dirac processor, then output to a sound source, namely JRiver.

Now this sounds good, except the windows volume mixer's volume control doesn't work with the Dirac processor either! Now this is very strange. This very much means that JRiver is not at fault here, but something else is wrong, but I have no idea what it could be.

[RoderickGI]

Research volume control for Windows applications running under Bootcamp on OSX.

This and the previous thread regarding this problem would indicate something is wrong in that part of your setup.

[stewart_pk]

Research volume control for Windows applications running under Bootcamp on OSX.

This and the previous thread regarding this problem would indicate something is wrong in that part of your setup.

I use straight up Windows 10. From memory the Windows volume slider has no effect when I use WDM into a WASPI or ASIO device, only the Internal Volume of JRiver.

[RoderickGI]

If you use Internal Volume and output using an Exclusive Mode, such as WASAPI or ASIO, then that is correct and by design.

If the WDM is the Windows Default Audio Device, and hence is being used as the source for audio Input into MC, then that confuses the issue somewhat, since the volume slider on the WDM Device is actually an input volume. I haven't tested all configurations when using the WDM, but I think changing the Input Volume via the WDM Slider would have no effect on the Output Volume of MC. Not sure on that though, as changing the volume in Youtube running under a browser to the WDM then to MC, you would expect the Youtube volume control to do something.

Anyway, throwing the WDM into the mix is just confusing things for BCZ. S/He needs to get volume control working under Bootcamp without the WDM being selected as the Default Windows Audio Device, and once happy there, get it working with the WDM Driver as the audio input to MC.

[BCZ]

If you use Internal Volume and output using an Exclusive Mode, such as WASAPI or ASIO, then that is correct and by design.

If the WDM is the Windows Default Audio Device, and hence is being used as the source for audio Input into MC, then that confuses the issue somewhat, since the volume slider on the WDM Device is actually an input volume. I haven't tested all configurations when using the WDM, but I think changing the Input Volume via the WDM Slider would have no effect on the Output Volume of MC. Not sure on that though, as changing the volume in Youtube running under a browser to the WDM then to MC, you would expect the Youtube volume control to do something.

Anyway, throwing the WDM into the mix is just confusing things for BCZ. S/He needs to get volume control working under Bootcamp without the WDM being selected as the Default Windows Audio Device, and once happy there, get it working with the WDM Driver as the audio input to MC.

The volume keys work just fine if I don't use WDM. I have issues with volume control with WDM. If the volume slider is for the input volume for WDM, then that should still change the output volume since if the input volume is changed, the output volume naturally changes. However, that's not the case.

Currently on WDM, yes YouTube, and any other form of volume control on a Windows program will change the volume. That's what I've been doing all this time to adjust volume. However, the volume slider does nothing.

This needs to work, because even if I can find a way to reduce the output's volume independently of JRiver's WDM, it will break the calibrated loudness feature on JRiver since it is the output volume being changed, and therefore JRiver could not possibly know how to compensate.

If the volume slider can be changed to being the input volume slider for WDM, then that would be perfect.

[stewart_pk]

Currently on WDM, yes YouTube, and any other form of volume control on a Windows program will change the volume. That's what I've been doing all this time to adjust volume. However, the volume slider does nothing.

This makes sense as the programs you're running can change the input volume.

The volume keys work just fine if I don't use WDM. I have issues with volume control with WDM. If the volume slider is for the input volume for WDM, then that should still change the output volume since if the input volume is changed, the output volume naturally changes. However, that's not the case.

Noted.

If the volume slider can be changed to being the input volume slider for WDM, then that would be perfect.

This doesn't make any sense to me because changing the input volume won't affect LOUNDESS because the JRiver Internal volume (output volume) would have stayed the same and this is used to calculate how much LOUDNESS to apply, I think.

What you really want is for the volume keys to change JRiver Internal Volume, agree?
Right now I use Nircmd to change the System volume, JRiver intercepts this even if in the background and adjusts its Internal volume accordingly.
I can have Cyberlink PowerDVD playing, press volume up and down on my IR Remote and it will change JRiver's Internal volume by small amounts.

[BCZ]

This doesn't make any sense to me because changing the input volume won't affect LOUNDESS because the JRiver Internal volume (output volume) would have stayed the same and this is used to calculate how much LOUDNESS to apply, I think.

What you really want is for the volume keys to change JRiver Internal Volume, agree?
Right now I use Nircmd to change the System volume, JRiver intercepts this even if in the background and adjusts its Internal volume accordingly.
I can have Cyberlink PowerDVD playing, press volume up and down on my IR Remote and it will change JRiver's Internal volume by small amounts.

JRiver has a calibration mode where it gets you to turn up a signal until it hits 83dB to determine a reference volume, and this works to enhance the loudness feature. If I change system volume, JRiver doesn't know about that since JRiver has

But yes I agree I need a way for the volume keys to change the internal volume of JRiver. How did you get nircmd to do that? changesysvolume changes the system volume. If you select an output device, you are changing the volume after JRiver has outputted to the output device.

[stewart_pk]

But yes I agree I need a way for the volume keys to change the internal volume of JRiver. How did you get nircmd to do that? changesysvolume changes the system volume. If you select an output device, you are changing the volume after JRiver has outputted to the output device.

Yes I'm using changesysvolume of NirCmd.
I set JRriver MC WDM as the default Windows sound device.
Volume up and down might change the Windows System Volume but because it's the WDM Device it doesn't do anything.
But JRiver MC will also intercept the change of System Volume and act accordingly.
From memory that's how I got it all working but I'll double check later and report back.

I use LM Remote Keymap and for key-mapping and scripting which is controlled with a Logitech Harmony Ultimate.

[BCZ]

Yes I'm using changesysvolume of NirCmd.
I set JRriver MC WDM as the default Windows sound device.
Volume up and down might change the Windows System Volume but because it's the WDM Device it doesn't do anything.
But JRiver MC will also intercept the change of System Volume and act accordingly.
From memory that's how I got it all working but I'll double check later and report back.

I use LM Remote Keymap and for key-mapping and scripting which is controlled with a Logitech Harmony Ultimate.

Yeah please let me know what you did. That would be very helpful.

[RoderickGI]

What you really want is for the volume keys to change JRiver Internal Volume, agree?

Once you have achieved that;
Set the volume of your source application to 100% so that MC can manage the loudness and use the maximum source volume for all DSP, giving the best results.
Set the WDM Driver volume slider to anything you like except 0%, because at 0% it mutes all devices. I recommend 100%. Then leave it alone.
Configure the WDM Playback Device as you wish. i.e. Stereo out (or whatever your most common source will be) or 5.1, or 7.1 as MC will downmix to whatever your Xonar and other hardware supports as per your MC configuration, full range speakers, etc.
Set the properties of the WDM Driver as you wish, but under the Advanced tab, set Exclusive Mode on and give priority to exclusive mode applications.
You will already have set MC to Internal Volume, of course.
I assume that you will also already have set your Xonar as the Output Device in MC, and set it to WASAPI Exclusive Mode. Or ASIO I guess.

Now your volume can be controlled using the MC Volume slider. It can also be controlled using the source application (i.e. YouTube) volume slider, but that could interfere with the DSP, loudness control, etc. Best to just use the MC Slider, or keys that drive it, as per Stewart_pk's suggestion.

The WDM Driver is a little... fragile. For example, I disabled the Feature in MC, restarted MC as required, and my audio was still being processed by MC via the WDM Driver. That shouldn't happen. It could have been because I still had a YouTube page open that I had been playing from. I had to enable, disable, and enable again to continue testing.

Also, I found with the WDM Driver enabled and using System Volume in MC, none of the PC system volume sliders were linked to the MC volume slider. If the WDM Driver was not enabled and MC was using System Volume, the MC volume slider was linked to the Output Device slider. That is probably what made this process difficult. Of course you can't test that with the one available slider in the Windows tray, because that is the WDM Driver volume slider, and not an Output Device volume slider. I had to use the Volume Mixer on my PC to confirm that effect. See below.

Note also that when I left YouTube running in the background playing videos, sometimes, but not all the time, MC Volume Protection kicked in and set the Internal Volume back to 20%, to protect from overdriving the speakers. I don't know why that only happened sometimes, or at all, because it is only supposed to happen on starting MC I think, or maybe on new sources, which is probably why it has done it. Possibly a change of source audio format triggered it. I haven't investigated. happened a couple of times in twenty minutes.



Now, do you have a Volume Mixer installed in your Bootcamp environment, like the image below? If so, have a play with that and test what each of the volume sliders does. I suspect it will be enlightening.

In my image, left to right;
The left is the WDM Driver volume slider. It mutes all volume if set to zero, and drags the other sliders up and down, but doesn't change volume.
The next one is the System Sounds volume slider, and changes the volume only of system sounds, as expected.
The next is the Google Chrome volume slider. It does change the output volume but doesn't actually move the slider inside YouTube running inside Chrome. I suspect that is a Chrome Master Volume, which acts in conjunction with the YouTube volume slider.
The next one is the MC Application volume slider, but it doesn't do anything at all.

So as you can see there are a lot of different volume controls in the audio chain when you use the MC WDM Driver with other applications.

[stewart_pk]

Yeah please let me know what you did. That would be very helpful.

I had a look how I set it up and it's pretty much like I wrote before.

And as Roderick said when the Windows default sound device is "JRiver Media Center 23" changing the  Windows system volume won't affect output or input but if you set it to 0 it will mute!

I'm currently using nircmd changesysvolume 1000 and nircmd changesysvolume -1000 for volume up and down.

The following is what I have for some of the settings for the "JRiver Media Center 23" WDM sound device to get 7.1 into JRiver from PowerDVD, it might not be applicable to what you want to do.

Configuration
---------------
Audio Channels: 7.1
Optional Speakers: All ticked
Full-range speakers: All ticked

Properties
-----------
Default Format: 24bit, 48000Hz (Studio Quality) *So that there's hopefully no up-sampling.
Spatial sound: None

[stewart_pk]

Thinking about this some more and with a bit more testing I don't actually need nircmd changesysvolume for the media keys on my keybaord to change the Internal Volume.
The reason I use nircmd changesysvolume is for IR Remote with something like Cyberlink PowerDVD.
Without nircmd changesysvolume replacing the default Application Volume Up/Down commands my volume up and down would change both Cyberlink PowerDVD's volume and JRiver's volume at the same time.

[RD James]

Can confirm: the JRiver WDM device ignores all volume changes.
This is actually good design, since you want the source volume untouched as an input into JRiver.
You would then use the JRiver internal volume to control the output volume - though I use the volume control on my DAC/AVR instead.

If you need to modify what the media keys do, they are stored in this registry location: HKLM\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Explorer\AppKey\
Create a new registry key with one of the following values to modify it:

Code: [Select]

   1  APPCOMMAND_BROWSER_BACKWARD                   
   2  APPCOMMAND_BROWSER_FORWARD                     
   3  APPCOMMAND_BROWSER_REFRESH                     
   4  APPCOMMAND_BROWSER_STOP                       
   5  APPCOMMAND_BROWSER_SEARCH                     
   6  APPCOMMAND_BROWSER_FAVORITES                   
   7  APPCOMMAND_BROWSER_HOME                       
   8  APPCOMMAND_VOLUME_MUTE                         
   9  APPCOMMAND_VOLUME_DOWN                         
  10  APPCOMMAND_VOLUME_UP                           
  11  APPCOMMAND_MEDIA_NEXTTRACK                     
  12  APPCOMMAND_MEDIA_PREVIOUSTRACK                 
  13  APPCOMMAND_MEDIA_STOP                         
  14  APPCOMMAND_MEDIA_PLAY_PAUSE                   
  15  APPCOMMAND_LAUNCH_MAIL                         
  16  APPCOMMAND_LAUNCH_MEDIA_SELECT                 
  17  APPCOMMAND_LAUNCH_APP1                         
  18  APPCOMMAND_LAUNCH_APP2                         
  19  APPCOMMAND_BASS_DOWN                           
  20  APPCOMMAND_BASS_BOOST                         
  21  APPCOMMAND_BASS_UP                             
  22  APPCOMMAND_TREBLE_DOWN                         
  23  APPCOMMAND_TREBLE_UP                           
  24  APPCOMMAND_MICROPHONE_VOLUME_MUTE             
  25  APPCOMMAND_MICROPHONE_VOLUME_DOWN             
  26  APPCOMMAND_MICROPHONE_VOLUME_UP               
  27  APPCOMMAND_HELP                               
  28  APPCOMMAND_FIND                               
  29  APPCOMMAND_NEW                                 
  30  APPCOMMAND_OPEN                               
  31  APPCOMMAND_CLOSE                               
  32  APPCOMMAND_SAVE                               
  33  APPCOMMAND_PRINT                               
  34  APPCOMMAND_UNDO                               
  35  APPCOMMAND_REDO                               
  36  APPCOMMAND_COPY                               
  37  APPCOMMAND_CUT                                 
  38  APPCOMMAND_PASTE                               
  39  APPCOMMAND_REPLY_TO_MAIL                       
  40  APPCOMMAND_FORWARD_MAIL                       
  41  APPCOMMAND_SEND_MAIL                           
  42  APPCOMMAND_SPELL_CHECK                         
  43  APPCOMMAND_DICTATE_OR_COMMAND_CONTROL_TOGGLE   
  44  APPCOMMAND_MIC_ON_OFF_TOGGLE                   
  45  APPCOMMAND_CORRECTION_LIST                     
  46  APPCOMMAND_MEDIA_PLAY                         
  47  APPCOMMAND_MEDIA_PAUSE                         
  48  APPCOMMAND_MEDIA_RECORD                       
  49  APPCOMMAND_MEDIA_FAST_FORWARD                 
  50  APPCOMMAND_MEDIA_REWIND                       
  51  APPCOMMAND_MEDIA_CHANNEL_UP                   
  52  APPCOMMAND_MEDIA_CHANNEL_DOWN                 
  53  APPCOMMAND_DELETE                             
  54  APPCOMMAND_DWM_FLIP3D Add a new string to that key called ShellExecute with your command.

E.g. to modify the volume down key on your keyboard (9), create a new registry key: HKLM\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Explorer\AppKey\9
Then create a new ShellExecute string with the command to launch, like: nircmd.exe changesysvolume -655

[BCZ]

To avoid quoting very long posts:

@RoderickGI

My experience and my computer's behaviour is exactly as you wrote in your post.

@stewart_pk

For some reason the changesysvolume doesn't work for me anymore. I used to have to specify the name of the output device as an argument, followed by another number, but it doesn't work for me anymore. Doing that, and having no arguments after changesysvolume (besides the integer value for volume change) just changes JRiver's WDM volume. I need to look into this more since I've had it working at one time.

@RD James

I'm not sure how that's good design. Sure, for audio accuracy that's good design since the volume manipulation is only done in JRiver, and it probably does a better job. However, it is absolutely *horrible* in terms of usability design.

The whole point of using WDM is to route ALL system sounds to JRiver. So why disable the volume change ability? It is the single most used feature, and it causes unbelievable inconvenience to have to go to JRiver every time to change the volume.

Please, look at all the mess everyone has to do just to do a ridiculously simple and basic thing of changing volume conveniently. Registry edits, scripts, and other hacky softwares? You are driving away a huge percentage of customers who aren't extremely tech savvy or have the patience to deal with such stupidity. If I had anything remotely close to what JRiver does DSP wise I would have jumped ship so fast Einstein would have to admit his theories are wrong.

Please, focus on simple usability. There's no point having all this advanced features if it is a pain in the ass to use. I'm not asking for Apple like UI excellence, just basic common sense.

[BCZ]

And again, even if the changesysvolume hack worked, it still screws up the calibrated loudness feature on JRiver. I'm changing the output volume, and therefore JRiver has no idea to compensate for the higher/lower volume for the loudness feature.

[RD James]

The whole point of using WDM is to route ALL system sounds to JRiver. So why disable the volume change ability? It is the single most used feature, and it causes unbelievable inconvenience to have to go to JRiver every time to change the volume.

Well the point of the WDM driver is to bypass the OS and perform DSP inside JRiver with higher quality processing.
If you adjust the volume before it gets to JRiver, you're throwing away audio quality - especially since the WDM driver defaults to 16-bit.

Please, look at all the mess everyone has to do just to do a ridiculously simple and basic thing of changing volume conveniently. Registry edits, scripts, and other hacky softwares?

You don't have to do any of that - I don't. But you need to either adjust the volume inside JRiver or external to the PC. It makes no sense to adjust the volume prior to it being routed into JRiver.
The options people are bringing up are to make it easier to adjust JRiver's volume instead of the system volume.
 
What might make sense would be the option to have special handling of "system volume" when the WDM driver is being used though - where the input volume is not touched at all, but the system volume level is linked to JRiver's internal volume control.
That way you get the full audio quality in JRiver, but retain standard volume control.
 

And again, even if the changesysvolume hack worked, it still screws up the calibrated loudness feature on JRiver. I'm changing the output volume, and therefore JRiver has no idea to compensate for the higher/lower volume for the loudness feature.

Isn't the whole point that you must change the volume inside JRiver so that this feature can work correctly?
If you're changing the volume level outside of JRiver, it has no idea what it is set to.

[stewart_pk]

To avoid quoting very long posts:

@RoderickGI

My experience and my computer's behaviour is exactly as you wrote in your post.

@stewart_pk

For some reason the changesysvolume doesn't work for me anymore. I used to have to specify the name of the output device as an argument, followed by another number, but it doesn't work for me anymore. Doing that, and having no arguments after changesysvolume (besides the integer value for volume change) just changes JRiver's WDM volume. I need to look into this more since I've had it working at one time.

@RD James

I'm not sure how that's good design. Sure, for audio accuracy that's good design since the volume manipulation is only done in JRiver, and it probably does a better job. However, it is absolutely *horrible* in terms of usability design.

The whole point of using WDM is to route ALL system sounds to JRiver. So why disable the volume change ability? It is the single most used feature, and it causes unbelievable inconvenience to have to go to JRiver every time to change the volume.

Please, look at all the mess everyone has to do just to do a ridiculously simple and basic thing of changing volume conveniently. Registry edits, scripts, and other hacky softwares? You are driving away a huge percentage of customers who aren't extremely tech savvy or have the patience to deal with such stupidity. If I had anything remotely close to what JRiver does DSP wise I would have jumped ship so fast Einstein would have to admit his theories are wrong.

Please, focus on simple usability. There's no point having all this advanced features if it is a pain in the ass to use. I'm not asking for Apple like UI excellence, just basic common sense.

Pershaps the issue really is that you're running through Apple. Like I wrote before, I don't even need NirCmd changesysvolume and the media keys on my HTPC keyboard work properly.

[RoderickGI]

Perhaps the issue really is that you're running through Apple. Like I wrote before, I don't even need NirCmd changesysvolume and the media keys on my HTPC keyboard work properly.

Research volume control for Windows applications running under Bootcamp on OSX.

Thank you, RD James, for bringing a sensible point of view to the discussion.

I wanted to say something along those lines earlier, but wasn't sure of my ground or the correct language in discussing what is being called "the calibrated loudness feature on JRiver". Mainly because I control volume outside MC via my Receiver volume dial, driven by my IR Remote. I also Mute the volume the same way. I use Internal Volume with a Reference Level of 80%, Volume Leveling, Adaptive Volume, Clip Protection, etc., but I could still turn the volume up on my Receiver to the maximum and blow my speakers to bits.

So how does this sound in respect to the argument about loudness?
Basically, MC can set volume level and protections internally based on the digitised volume in a file. However, it is still up to the user to set a comfortable listening volume for "normal" listening, and it is really against that base volume that all adjustments made by MC are put to use. If the normal listening level is set correctly, then a large loud sound in the file shouldn't overdrive the speakers. Clip Protection protects against internally driving the volume beyond 100%, while the other controls protect against externally overdriving the speakers.

Because of the above, I find the discussion of "Loudness" somewhat misses the point. The key is to provide a signal at the maximum volume into MC (for best quality), have MC do all its processing, and set a normal listening volume either with MC controls or externally.


I hope that makes sense.

[stewart_pk]

And again, even if the changesysvolume hack worked, it still screws up the calibrated loudness feature on JRiver. I'm changing the output volume, and therefore JRiver has no idea to compensate for the higher/lower volume for the loudness feature.

And I again I don't understand your point. The LOUDNESS feature is reliant on the output volume of JRiver not the input volume. If you manually change the JRiver Volume slider and you have Internal Volume engaged then JRiver will be adjusting the LOUDNESS compensation.

[BCZ]

And I again I don't understand your point. The LOUDNESS feature is reliant on the output volume of JRiver not the input volume. If you manually change the JRiver Volume slider and you have Internal Volume engaged then JRiver will be adjusting the LOUDNESS compensation.

You guys would be correct when talking about the loudness feature by itself. That is only dependent on the JRiver's internal volume. However, I'm talking about the loudness feature AND calibrated reference volume.

The loudness feature, in conjunction with a calibrated reference volume, is dependent on the source volume AND the output volume of JRiver. This is because once JRiver has the calibrated reference volume set, it knows exactly what the listening position SPL is (assuming flat speaker response), and it automatically adjusts the amount of bass and treble boost that applies for the loudness feature.

For a setup like this, the amp for the speakers should be at maximum. JRiver, or the source would act as a preamp. It doesn't matter if the volume change is from JRiver itself or from the source, JRiver will be able to calculate the SPL level at the listening position based on the magnitude of the processed output.

Or, this entire conversation would be moot if there was a simple way to adjust JRiver's internal volume through media keys.

I will be reinstalling Windows 10 again soon, and I'll see what's going on when I have a clean slate.

[stewart_pk]

You guys would be correct when talking about the loudness feature by itself. That is only dependent on the JRiver's internal volume. However, I'm talking about the loudness feature AND calibrated reference volume.

The loudness feature, in conjunction with a calibrated reference volume, is dependent on the source volume AND the output volume of JRiver. This is because once JRiver has the calibrated reference volume set, it knows exactly what the listening position SPL is (assuming flat speaker response), and it automatically adjusts the amount of bass and treble boost that applies for the loudness feature.

For a setup like this, the amp for the speakers should be at maximum. JRiver, or the source would act as a preamp. It doesn't matter if the volume change is from JRiver itself or from the source, JRiver will be able to calculate the SPL level at the listening position based on the magnitude of the processed output.

Or, this entire conversation would be moot if there was a simple way to adjust JRiver's internal volume through media keys.

I will be reinstalling Windows 10 again soon, and I'll see what's going on when I have a clean slate.

Sure OK, just make sure that the source volume is 100% or is that hard to do?
This is why I use NirCmd changesysvolume because Cyberlink PowerDVD (set to the default 100% volume) ignores the NirCmd changesysvolume but JRiver MC reacts to it.

[stewart_pk]

Or, this entire conversation would be moot if there was a simple way to adjust JRiver's internal volume through media keys.

I told you before, they simply "just work" for me; there was nothing to do to get them working.
Maybe you need to move to a dedicated Windows 10 computer. 

[RoderickGI]

It doesn't matter if the volume change is from JRiver itself or from the source, JRiver will be able to calculate the SPL level at the listening position based on the magnitude of the processed output.

Could you provide a reference for that, please? Thanks.

[stewart_pk]

You guys would be correct when talking about the loudness feature by itself. That is only dependent on the JRiver's internal volume. However, I'm talking about the loudness feature AND calibrated reference volume.

The loudness feature, in conjunction with a calibrated reference volume, is dependent on the source volume AND the output volume of JRiver. This is because once JRiver has the calibrated reference volume set, it knows exactly what the listening position SPL is (assuming flat speaker response), and it automatically adjusts the amount of bass and treble boost that applies for the loudness feature.

For a setup like this, the amp for the speakers should be at maximum. JRiver, or the source would act as a preamp. It doesn't matter if the volume change is from JRiver itself or from the source, JRiver will be able to calculate the SPL level at the listening position based on the magnitude of the processed output.

No I don't believe that to be correct. JRiver will not care about the input volume only the output volume setting combined with the Internal volume reference level which tells JRiver how much LOUDNESS to apply. I could be wrong about this, but that's my understanding. Even if you are correct then make sure that your input volume is 100% and you have nothing to worry about.

[mattkhan]

loudness is described in https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=76608.0 as requiring internal volume with a known reference level. AFAIK you can determine the dB adjustment applied by the windows volume control programmatically (e.g. REW uses this with certain mics) so theoretically it seems like it could  account for this when this feature is active. However given that it works fine as is when using internal volume only then I can't see why they'd bother spending time on such a change.

[JimH]

MC has several settings for Media Keys.  Use the search window in options.

Logitech software used to cause some problems with media keys.

[BCZ]

Oh wow I just checked, loudness, even with a calibrated reference volume, doesn't work on the source level, which is very disappointing. The point of knowing a reference volume is to do exactly that, which is a huge benefit. Looks like I have to use something else for loudness.

[RD James]

Oh wow I just checked, loudness, even with a calibrated reference volume, doesn't work on the source level, which is very disappointing. The point of knowing a reference volume is to do exactly that, which is a huge benefit. Looks like I have to use something else for loudness.

I'm not sure that you understand what Loudness does or how it works.
It mainly compensates for the perceptual loss of low frequency information when the volume is reduced by applying a compensation curve.
You need to calibrate your system so that it plays at 83dB for the specified internal volume reference level. Loudness is then applied when you reduce the volume below that level.
It does nothing at reference level, since that is how it was intended to sound. There's no other way it could work correctly.

[RoderickGI]

Forgive me for a minor clarification, which is probably needed based on the above discussion.

Loudness is then applied when you reduce the Internal Volume below that level.

Adjusting any Input Volume does nothing to make Loudness work. It will just change the volume of the music.

Maybe there is some professional grade equipment that could measure the input voltage of a signal and take that into account in making Loudness adjustments, but I would be surprised if there was consumer grade equipment that would do that.

[mattkhan]

FWIW I understand BCZ's point to be that jriver should be aware of level changes applied via the windows mixer controls

i.e. jriver volume offset from 0 = internal volume + windows mixer volume for the jriver wdm device

e.g. if interval volume was at -6dB and the wdm driver was at 50% (and for the sake of argument we assume 50% is -12dB) then jriver volume = -6 + -12 = -18dB

As I said earlier, from what I've seen this is technically possible to implement (but doesn't seem worth the effort to me but it's not my time being spent so ignore me).

If this isn't what BCZ means then perhaps he can clarify.

[RD James]

Forgive me for a minor clarification, which is probably needed based on the above discussion.
Adjusting any Input Volume does nothing to make Loudness work. It will just change the volume of the music.
Maybe there is some professional grade equipment that could measure the input voltage of a signal and take that into account in making Loudness adjustments, but I would be surprised if there was consumer grade equipment that would do that.

I'm really not sure what you mean with this post.
If you're adjusting MC's internal volume control, it knows how much you have moved the volume from the calibrated reference point, and how much Loudness compensation needs to be applied.
If you're adjusting volume external to MC, you shouldn't be using the Loudness feature as it requires that the entire playback chain is calibrated.

[RoderickGI]

I was just trying to clarify which "Volume" you were talking about, because if you read back through the thread you will see clarity could have helped a bit.

I'm agreeing with you. Particularly this bit;

If you're adjusting volume external to MC, you shouldn't be using the Loudness feature as it requires that the entire playback chain is calibrated.

I actually wrote something to the same effect and discussed possible non-linearity of the sliders used in the chain, and the need to map response curves for each of them... then decided not to post it.

In my YouTube example, there are three volume sliders that have an impact on the Input Volume delivered to MC; YouTube slider, Chrome slider, and WDM Driver slider. None of those is used by MC to adjust Loudness. None of them are calibrated. Nor does JRiver have any control over changes in functionality for those, so any calibration could be ruined the day after it was completed.


Matt while it makes sense that MC could know the WDM slider setting, could it know the settings in the whole audio chain to the MC input point? I don't know.

Alternately, is MC able to see the input dB level of the signal either into the WDM or after the WDM? I don't know that either.

If the latter is the case, MC could take into account the source level and adjust the Loudness based on, if you like, the Absolute Volume Level Output. I guess that is what BCZ was expecting.

[stewart_pk]

Oh wow I just checked, loudness, even with a calibrated reference volume, doesn't work on the source level, which is very disappointing. The point of knowing a reference volume is to do exactly that, which is a huge benefit. Looks like I have to use something else for loudness.

I think you're heading in the wrong direction.

[BCZ]

I'm not sure that you understand what Loudness does or how it works.
It mainly compensates for the perceptual loss of low frequency information when the volume is reduced by applying a compensation curve.
You need to calibrate your system so that it plays at 83dB for the specified internal volume reference level. Loudness is then applied when you reduce the volume below that level.
It does nothing at reference level, since that is how it was intended to sound. There's no other way it could work correctly.

When JRiver calibrated the system so that it knows at what volume the system reaches 83dB, it now knows the SPL at the listening position at all times since it knows that at this RMS level, it will reach 83dB. So, if the incoming signal is -10dB below that level, then the listening position SPL is 73dB, and the loudness algorithm should apply the amount of boost for a 73dB level.

Therefore, an implementation of the equal loudness curve is to constantly calculate the given RMS level of the input signal, then compare it to the reference volume to obtain the actual SPL at the listening position, and then apply the appropriate compensation for the given volume.

Now on second thought, I thought this is mimicking Audyssey's Dynamic EQ's implementation of equal loudness curve, but it isn't. It is the same way as JRiver. So I was wrong to be disappointed at JRiver's loudness implementation.

[mattkhan]

tl;dr I think this earlier comment hits the nail on the head, the loudness thing seems a bit of wild goose chase to me.

Or, this entire conversation would be moot if there was a simple way to adjust JRiver's internal volume through media keys.

... some comments anyway though

Matt while it makes sense that MC could know the WDM slider setting, could it know the settings in the whole audio chain to the MC input point? I don't know.

My point was just to highlight what (I think) is implementable , i.e. draw a clear line between what is under jriver control and what isn't. This basically means stopping at the WDM driver. Going beyond that seems contrary to the reason for that driver to exist anyway as it means an awareness of upstream apps when the driver exists so jriver doesn't have to know what is upstream, it just processes audio.

As far as I can see, in order to do what BCZ wants, jriver would have to a) be aware of those source applications, and b) those apps would have to expose a volume control that jriver could access. b is required so that jriver can distinguish between variations in level in the source content and a user decided variation in overall volume level. Even if they wanted to implement a), I doubt that access to b) is possible.

It seems much much simpler to me to just max all the upstream volume controls and use the one in jriver instead, less work all round for the same end result.

Alternately, is MC able to see the input dB level of the signal either into the WDM or after the WDM? I don't know that either.

If the latter is the case, MC could take into account the source level and adjust the Loudness based on, if you like, the Absolute Volume Level Output. I guess that is what BCZ was expecting.

technically I suppose it is possible for jriver to analyse the live signal and dynamically adjust loudness based on the level of the signal. This would naturally add some delay though as that analysis takes time (which is often what you don't want with the wdm driver, i.e. where video is involved, and no idea how much delay). It's not obvious to me why this would be desirable though, seems like that would operate more like a form of dynamic range compression (c.f. night mode) as it would surely boost the quiet bits of any track as it would not be able to distinguish between a quiet track and a low volume level in the source application.